Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

[William Parcher]

Wasn't this photo shot close to Roger Patterson's house?

Tube (Matt Crowley) tells the story of a woman who says she is Jerry Merritt's niece. She said the photo was taken "...South Fork of Ahtanum 20 miles west of Yakima. My mom threw gas on fire to make it flare up...." That does put it near Roger's home.

 

[JcR]

Tube (Matt Crowley) tells the story of a woman who says she is Jerry Merritt's niece. She said the photo was taken "...South Fork of Ahtanum 20 miles west of Yakima. My mom threw gas on fire to make it flare up...." That does put it near Roger's home.

Canteen, Axe, Rifle ...Nice touch. The shovel is for the fire pit I figure.

 

[JcR]

Tube (Matt Crowley) tells the story of a woman who says she is Jerry Merritt's niece. She said the photo was taken "...South Fork of Ahtanum 20 miles west of Yakima. My mom threw gas on fire to make it flare up...." That does put it near Roger's home.

Thanks
I was digging for this article I had remembered seeing. Then I got sidetracked with Jerry Merritt and found Buddy Knox.

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

Error 2

Where: Your comparison where you attempt to compare Patty's height based on her foot and Roger's height based on an alleged Patty cast he is holding.

What extent: First of all, the image showing the bottom of Patty's foot is the one you just told us earlier is not reliable because...

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
The 'Frame 72' foot-ruler measurement, of 5'7", needs 'correction factors' applied to it, to correct for a few things....such as 'blooming' of the foot, the foot being closer to the camera than the rest of the body, and vertical foreshortening of Patty's height.

Therefore, the 5'7" figure is too short...by several inches.

More reality....that you can't face.

Total intellectual dishonesty on your part.

You refuse to acknowlege the results of Frame 72 when it does not suit you, yet you go and use it when you think it is to your advantage.

More kitakaze Krap.

If you had looked closely at the Frame 72 comparison of Patty and Roger....you would have seen that I had scaled the cast smaller than Patty's foot....ACCOUNTING for the 'bloom' of Patty's foot.


In addition to that fact....re-adjusting Roger's size, for other potential error-factors in the Frame 72 image of Patty, would only tend to decrease Roger's height even further, relative to Patty.


Nevertheless....here is the same graphic, with a later Frame used as a foot-ruler...and Roger still ends up at very nearly the same...WAY TOO SHORT...height......

 

[realpaladin]

This thread is great! It's like... Numb3rs meets Mark Twain meets X-Files meets Columbo!

A popcorn-moment at almost every post!

 

[JcR]

 

[kitakaze]

Nevertheless....here is the same graphic, with a later Frame used as a foot-ruler...and Roger still ends up at very nearly the same...WAY TOO SHORT...height......

[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Jim%20McClarin/th_Patty352JimJimWeeRoger5.jpg[/qimg]

My goodness, Sweaty, I am stunned. You once again omitted a central part of my post and failed to address a key point. It is as if you are not able to handle the argument. Here, let me replace what you left out...

Secondly, and far more importantly, there is absolutely no reliable evidence that the subject of the Patterson film made any of the impressions Patterson cast. Conversely, there is significant evidence that Roger faked his casts. Those are two left feet. They are not the same feet.

If Patty's feet and Patty's casts are not the same thing, then any comparison you make assuming they are is totally meaningless. To what extent is the degree of error? Pick a number. Based just on the issues you had with Frame 72 before, you'd be off by several inches. What the real extent is can not be reliably measured. All we can say is... Controls not set. Comparison invalid.

Of course, of direct relevance is the post by River concerning foot rulers and track depth that you still haven't addressed. Here's a snip...

The foot as a ruler should corroborate the other photogrammetry method. (distance, focal lengh, percentage of full frame) It doesnt. This would imply that the trackway may have been fabricated.

That's a fun new scribble you made up there. Is there any reason why you cut off Roger's left foot? I'm assuming it was for effect.

 

[kitakaze]

News flash!!!

Sweet Fancy Moses, I did it!!! I finally spoke with Bob Heironimus! Holy guacamole!

I just got off the phone after speaking with Bob for about 40 minutes. Some have you have inquired by PM on what the situation is in regards to my attempts to get Lucas to get BH's email for me. I was also away twice for a couple of weeks at a time due to my pc getting repairs and having a hectic work schedule.

I confirm, I repeat, I confirm that Lucas was not lying and has indeed been in contact with Bob Heironimus. Interestingly, Bob told me that he had quite a lot of trouble understanding Lucas. For myself, I grew increasingly frustrated with Lucas in the way he relayed my requests. The specific information I gave him to tell Bob was relayed as "BTW, somebody wants to interview you." The back and forth grew quite tedious and finally I grew tired of waiting. Yesterday I had the time available and decided to try the six possible numbers that William Parcher and I had come up with. I had held off till now in wanting to go through someone who already knows Bob, and I didn't want to risk offending him.

Of the six numbers I tried yesterday only two were in service. I eliminated one and the other I was unsure because I was getting an automated answering message. As it was getting past dinner time on the west coast, I decided to leave it until today to try again. When I called today around 5pm Bob's time, I was expecting the number would not be his. The phone rang a couple of times and I immediately recognized the husky voice of Bob Heironimus. LOL, my whole career revolves around being on stage and I nearly pooped my pants. I quickly recovered and told Bob my name and that I was calling from just up in Vancouver Island, BC. I told him I was a regular contributor for the James Randi Educational Foundation forum, which was a popular website for skeptics, critical thinking, and the examination of paranormal claims.

I told Bob that for several years now Bigfoot and the Patterson film has been a regular topic of conversation and that we have people from all over the world reading and participating over hundreds of pages of discussion. I told Bob that I personally had been writing about and investigating his claim and the PGF for about four years at the JREF and have been trying for about a year now to arrange an interview. I asked Bob if he was familiar with Youtube, which he wasn't, and explained to him that it is a worldwide free video sharing service that is basically like the TV of the internet, except that it is created by the viewers for the viewers rather than by professional studios as with TV.

Bob right away let me know that he has a fee that he charges for TV interviews based on 15 minutes or 30 minutes discussion. Out of respect for Bob's privacy I will not share the exact dollar amount, but I will say it is extremely low. I explained that my intention was to come to Yakima in person and to interview him and record video myself and that I would most likely be coming by myself as an independent researcher. We then proceeded to get into a somewhat lengthy discussion regarding the PGF, Roger Patterson, Bob Gimlin, and Bigfoot enthusiasts. Here are some highlights of our discussion (my questions and his answers paraphrased - I took notes as we spoke but did not record the discussion)...

KK - You do in fact live on the same street in Yakima nine doors away from Bob Gimlin?

BH - Yes, that's right.

KK - You've known Mr. Gimlin in since the film was made in 1967. How long have you two known each other?

BH - We knew each other since long before (the PGF).

KK - When is the last time you saw Mr. Gimlin?

BH - Two weeks ago at a horse show. We didn't discuss anything about Bigfoot.

KK - Recently Mr. Gimlin did an internet radio interview with a group of Bigfoot enthusiasts from Minnesota in which he discussed the events of the PGF. He repeatedly speaks about his horse. We now know that that was in fact your horse, Chico. Mr. Gimlin has once iun an interview confirmed that to be true. He said he had the horse for several weeks and was breaking it in for you.

BH - That's a bunch of crap. The horse was broken in long before that. He was only there for eight days.

KK - So we know you were involved with Roger and Bob back then. We have you appearing on certain points of Roger's film not in the suit, either riding Chico or sitting around a campfire at dusk. You're the only person ever to have claimed to be in the suit, you live nine doors from the guy who was known to be there when the film was shot, your firends with him, he admits he had your horse there... 2004 Greg Long puts out a book in which you call Gimlian a liar essentially...

Why hasn't Mr. Gimlin tried to take any legal action against you?

BH - Because he knows it's not real.

Points of interest...

- I could hear Glenda (Bob's wife) in the background. She told Bob she found the email I sent last year to her work email address.

- Bob advised that I should talk with Philip Morris. He said he thought it was BS that John Chambers was responsible for the suit.

- I mentioned to Bob that people I know had recently done an interview with Greg Long who said that he was retiring and would be using his time to follow up his investigation from his 2004 book. Bob said that Greg had recently called him and wanted to go over some things.

- We spoke a bit about Tom Biscardi visiting Bob in the summer of 2008. I told him I had seen pictures of his family and home (complimented him on his Chevy restorations.

- Bob asked me if I noticed how Bob Gimlin will only ever refer to Patty as "the creature". He thought that was because Bob G never wanted to implicitly call Patty a Bigfoot.

As it was close to dinnertime, I told Bob I didn't want to keep him on the phone too long. I told him that I would like to go ahead planning to come to Yakima to meet him and would like to stay in touch to go over various things. I asked him if he preferred to stay in touch by phone or email and he said by phone. He gave me some info about his schedule and I said I look forward to speaking with him again and gave my regards to his family.

YESSS!!! Finally, after all this time I am talking with Bob Heironimus! Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[Vortigern99]

Kitakaze, you've done a fine job with the opening salvo/warm-up/intro. Congratulations on finally making the call.

Would you like to open the floor to ideas on which questions to put to Bob when the interview takes place?

 

[William Parcher]

Way to go, kitakaze! An apology from me to lucaschorak. I thought he was making it all up.

The PGF Believers are gonna wet themselves with glee when they hear that BH charges money for interviews. That is one of the prime motivators for hoaxing (lying) according to the Bigfooters.

So far he hasn't said anything we don't already know or couldn't assume based on things he's already talked about. You could try to press him for details about delivering the film. He said that Roger handed him the roll containing himself as Patty with instructions to mail it (in Eureka?). That was right before he left Bluff Creek. Why didn't Roger just have him deliver it in person when he drove back to Yakima?

 

[River]

snip

I told him that I would like to go ahead planning to come to Yakima to meet him and would like to stay in touch to go over various things.
/snip

You should try to get Gimlin there also. I cant think of a better interview concerning this topic. Heironimus and Gimlin interviewed together = answers + you could easily sell the interview and pay for your expenses. Besides the obvious win situation of that, just think of the possible fireworks. I wonder if Gimlin would even agree to such an interview to "set the record straight".

 

[Vortigern99]

It occurs to me the best, most skeptical-est approach to the interview would be to attempt to falsify Bob's account. Not overtly-- not to the point of insult or accusation -- but questions should be framed with the goal in mind of establishing that his claim is invalid.

 

[RayG]

YESSS!!! Finally, after all this time I am talking with Bob Heironimus! Now we're getting somewhere.

Sorry Kit, but I'm finding it hard to share your enthusiasm. Unless Bob H. can produce the actual suit that he claims he wore, it's just more words.

RayG

 

[rockinkt]

I admire your tenaciousness and enthusiasm, Kit - but I agree with RayG in that you will have nothing after all is said and done if you just go over all the stuff that has been gone over ad nauseum.

I would spend my time trying to convince him to get Bob Gimlin to tell the truth.

 

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze, you've done a fine job with the opening salvo/warm-up/intro. Congratulations on finally making the call.

Would you like to open the floor to ideas on which questions to put to Bob when the interview takes place?

Thanks, Vort. In hind sight, I think I should have picked up the phone once WP and I got the six numbers to call, but I'm just happy the ball is now rolling and I am on speaking terms with the man at the center of this debate.

Absolutely, I would like to see suggestions for what Bob should be asked. If it really matters at all, I am quite sure that Bob H rarely turns on a computer. When I asked him if he uses email at all, he said "No, not really." BTW, he mentioned if I was aware he had passed to lie detecor tests, and I told him yes. I told him I've read a lot of ridiculous theories from believers of Bigfoot why that is. I plan to discuss the subject further with him in the next few weeks.

If anyone would like to submit quetions that they do not want any p[ossibility of BH being prepared for, please send them by PM.

 

[HarryHenderson]

<Spicoli> "Duuude! Yeah guy!" </Spicoli> I'm impressed (once again) with your diligence.

Now, while RayG is right, as he so very often is, and despite my near complete indifference to the entire subject, I'm interested in hearing from this guy one more time. And honestly, especially so if it's going to be done by one of Bigfoot's Best™ Believers-Turned-Skeptics. I don't necessarily believe BH was (or was even smart enough to be) the guy in the suit, but I am convinced he could have been and/or that it's very possible he was there somewhere and knows who and how it all really went down. Patterson is gone and Gimlin isn't doing much 'talking' - BH is probably the lastest bestest hope for trying to get the Real® 'real skinny' on the PGF (if he was there).

Kitakaze, when do you hope to make it all happen?

 

[kitakaze]

Way to go, kitakaze! An apology from me to lucaschorak. I thought he was making it all up.

I tried to send young Lucas another apology by PM, but his inbox was full. I'm sorry for doubting you, Lucas. I'm just relieved that he didn't split early on.

The PGF Believers are gonna wet themselves with glee when they hear that BH charges money for interviews. That is one of the prime motivators for hoaxing (lying) according to the Bigfooters.

When Bob told me about the fee, I had the distinct impression that he at first thought he was talking to someone behind a production. I did explain youtube to him as "basically TV for the internet." After we were discussing money made from the film by Roger, Patricia, Bob G, DeAtely and he said he was sick of the film kicking around and making all this money all these years without him ever seeing a cent. I can not argue with BH asking a (very) small fee to do interview for shows. What is Bob getting for his interview? What did Bobo "The Chimp" Fey, Paul Yamarone, and others set Bob G up with for the Yakima Round-up? What will Bob get for appearing in Ohio at the conference coming up?

What really kicked me is when BH confirmed his continued friendship with BG and when he told me they just had seen each other two weeks before at a horse, but didn't discuss Bigfoot. There they are, "Hi, Bob," "Howdy, Bob." "Good looking horse." "Yup, she's a beauty." "How's the wife?"

No kidding, why wouldn't he have seen him at a horse show two weeks before? They both work with horses and they live on the same street of a tiny town. I was discussing this with a good friend just after I got off the phone who has no interest in Bigfoot or knowledge about the PGF. He said that he would consider it damning if the only person ever to claim to be in the same suit lived in the same city, let alone the same street as Gimlin.

Footers should ask what reason would BH lie to me about that. BH new that I could call Gimlin myself. What reason is there to doubt BH saying that. What footers should really be talking about is why they are still believing a film where the only person ever to claim to be in the suit has lived nine doors from one of the men behind the film since it was made and had a good friendship with all along the way. A man who we know was on various parts of Patterson's film and who's horse was admitted by Gimlin to be present when Patty was filmed.

So far he hasn't said anything we don't already know or couldn't assume based on things he's already talked about. You could try to press him for details about delivering the film. He said that Roger handed him the roll containing himself as Patty with instructions to mail it (in Eureka?). That was right before he left Bluff Creek. Why didn't Roger just have him deliver it in person when he drove back to Yakima?

Good question. I will be asking Bob to give me an entire timeline from when he left Yakima, the circumstances of the time, to when he returned to Yakima and what he did immediately after. What I need now is to go back and look at what are the best leads for holes in the plausibility of BH's story.

 

[kitakaze]

<Spicoli> "Duuude! Yeah guy!" </Spicoli> I'm impressed (once again) with your diligence.

Now, while RayG is right, as he so very often is, and despite my near complete indifference to the entire subject, I'm interested in hearing from this guy one more time. And honestly, especially so if it's going to be done by one of Bigfoot's Best™ Believers-Turned-Skeptics. I don't necessarily believe BH was (or was even smart enough to be) the guy in the suit, but I am convinced he could have been and/or that it's very possible he was there somewhere and knows who and how it all really went down. Patterson is gone and Gimlin isn't doing much 'talking' - BH is probably the lastest bestest hope for trying to get the Real® 'real skinny' on the PGF (if he was there).

Kitakaze, when do you hope to make it all happen?

Thanks, Harry. I really couldn't 100% confirm a specific date now, but I would like to go to Yakima in the early summer and time it with the Sasquatch Music Festival in Washington which I will be at May 29-31.

Here's the thing. You'd be willing to hear him out one more time, I'd be willing to hear him out many times over as much as he is able to share. The thing is how smart do you have to be to be the guy in the suit that Roger would screw? Roger needed someone he knew that was close to him that he could promise some money to and get them to walk in a suit. BH himself said he was young and stupid and baited by the promise of $1000 dollars from Roger.

Was he smart enough to keep his mouth closed? No. We know by 1968 that it was getting around town in wee little Yakima that he was the guy. I think we have to consider our options. Well, one is that Bigfoot is real and the PGF is the best film we have of one. For me I would have to ignore all the blatant indicators of hoax such as those I've posted about a million times concerning his '66 book. I would have to ignore that here's this guy in hollering distance
of Gimlin that Gimlin hasn't done a single thing legally about.

Gimlin could sue Heironimus silly and he hasn't. Gimlin won't get anywhere near a polygraph while his friend and neighbour Heironimus has passed two. How insane is it to accuse your friend and neighbour on national televison of lying and hoaxing? The only reason this keeps going on is because it's Bigfoot and for the vast majority of normal people it's a joke.

The question should be if Heironimus is lying, why does it look so utterly obvious that he's not.

 

[kitakaze]

I admire your tenaciousness and enthusiasm, Kit - but I agree with RayG in that you will have nothing after all is said and done if you just go over all the stuff that has been gone over ad nauseum.

I would spend my time trying to convince him to get Bob Gimlin to tell the truth.

I think you have a good point there. The thing that is forming itself in my mind now is a little different. I spent months trying to get someone else to get some results with BH to no end. It wasn't anything I asked Lucas to bring to Bob that paid off, but rather working with what I had and gleaning the information I needed to get it done myself. I don't think it's futile to get BH to try and reason with BG, but I can imagine the outcome easily.

Look at everything we're seeing from BG these days. He loves the conferences and the attention. He loves charming the ladies and having the Bigfoot believer people fall over themselves to gush and praise him. We certainly can't say he isn't getting paid for his time. In the interview with the Minnesota guys he makes it clear that he is actively following developements in Bigfootery. He said that is the last interview he is doing (not including Ohio). Note to footers, if you want BG to talk, you're going to have to sweeten the pot. Bob G has reams of doe-eyed people hanging on his every word and knows they would be crushed for him to come out and admit a hoax.

I think a more resourceful approach is needed. What I'm talking about is not going through BH or anyone, but going straight to the source myself. I think at some point soon I am going to have to talk to Gimlin myself and get his side of the story. You know, BG has never done this. BG has never spoken with anyone who has as much knowledge as we do here and is not a believer. Bob G has been shielded from any such experience.

How does the scenario change when BG is talking with someone who is also talking with BH down the street and not startting with the assumption that BH must be a liar.

So hey, Mr. Gimlin, I was wondering about the horse show you were recently at with Mr. Heironimus. Isn't it kind of weird that you two would be hanging out together talking nothing about Bigfoot and there's no "Hey, you son of a ____, enough with the calling me a hoaxer and a liar." Do many of your Bigfoot enthusiast fans even know just how close and how far back your relationship to Mr. Heironimus goes? Don't you think that is something pretty relevant that people might want to be aware of?

I think with just the right approach and a non-combative attitude, their could be some very important developements.

 

[kitakaze]

You should try to get Gimlin there also. I cant think of a better interview concerning this topic. Heironimus and Gimlin interviewed together = answers + you could easily sell the interview and pay for your expenses. Besides the obvious win situation of that, just think of the possible fireworks. I wonder if Gimlin would even agree to such an interview to "set the record straight".

Delicious. I like your thinking, River. This is along the lines where I would like to go. I could offer to pay both men a fee for making the appearance, if necessary. I would have not the slightest qualm about shopping the interview to cover any losses I'm taking. With both men at the table and the right questions being asked, this could be something huge, however it goes.

What I wouldn't have given to be in the right place at the right time two weeks ago at the horse show both BH and BG were at ready with a smile, the right questions, and a tape recorder/camera.

It would be like a Bigfootery TMZ freak-out!