What about this crop circle?

[Stray Cat]

Have you seen page 5 of this report? It seems to be a very rare effect and in that report it is regarded as one indication that the circle is 'genuine'.

These are the kind of people who encourage the circlemakers to keep going.
Wow, what a lot of work someone has put in there.

I just thought that if there was circlemaker instructions out there on how to do that or even prior mention of it I would like to see it. I would also like to see a team demonstrate making that rare effect on camera.

People can do it, people do do it, you too could do it. No one has to prove it to you.

 

[Limbo]

No, I just didn't understand that people would just make stuff up like that and at that time, I had no reason to doubt them. As far as I was concerned, if it was on the news and in the newspapers, it must be true.

You were swallowed by the ET mythology when you were an impressionable child, and based on that mythology you arrived at a number of expectations. The ET mythology and crop circles and whatever else have failed to live up to your expectations, and so you lost your religion, so to speak.

But...your expectations were flawed. Your expectations were based on your literal belief. But mythology isn't literal. You made the mistake of thinking UFOs are literally aliens and you based your expectations accordingly. So my friend it's back to the drawing board for you. You need to come up with a whole new set of expectations based on a whole new understanding of the nature of mythology.

 

[Sledge]

Buck up your ideas, Stray Cat. You haven't finished researching the subject until you arrive at the same conclusion as Limbo. Whatever Limbo's conclusion is.

 

[Stray Cat]

You were swallowed by the ET mythology when you were an impressionable child, and based on that mythology you arrived at a number of expectations. The ET mythology and crop circles and whatever else have failed to live up to your expectations, and so you lost your religion, so to speak.

But...your expectations were flawed. Your expectations were based on your literal belief. But mythology isn't literal. You made the mistake of thinking UFOs are literally aliens and you based your expectations accordingly. So my friend it's back to the drawing board for you. You need to come up with a whole new set of expectations based on a whole new understanding of the nature of mythology.

No, not at all. I took on board people's interpretation of physical lights in the sky to be alien in origin. I eventually came to realise that no one had any physical proof of these physical events actually being alien at all, so I turned to crop circles because they seemed on the face of it, to offer physical proof. Again upon further investigation they are physical proof of human ingenuity/artistry on one hand and people's willfull ignorance/credulity on the other.

I'm not interested in religion at all, I'm interested in examining the physical proof that people provide to prop up their religious beliefs. Proof which in 100% of cases relies upon the religious interpretation of circular reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that something paranormal is occurring.

 

[Marduk]

Proof which in 100% of cases relies upon the religious interpretation of circular reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that something paranormal is occurring.

the way you said that, its almost as if someone in this thread is operating under a "belief" and using "circular reasoning"

who can it be ?

 

[Limbo]

No, not at all. I took on board people's interpretation of physical lights in the sky to be alien in origin. I eventually came to realise that no one had any physical proof of these physical events actually being alien at all, so I turned to crop circles because they seemed on the face of it, to offer physical proof. Again upon further investigation they are physical proof of human ingenuity/artistry on one hand and people's willfull ignorance/credulity on the other.

I'm not interested in religion at all, I'm interested in examining the physical proof that people provide to prop up their religious beliefs. Proof which in 100% of cases relies upon the religious interpretation of circular reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that something paranormal is occurring.

Bingo! That's what I said. You just have a different way of saying it.

 

[23_Tauri]

Find the best shamans in the UK and persuade them to make circles with you...to turn your circle making into rituals, into spells. And subsequently to turn your circles into temporary, living temples and mandalas. Then you will see paranormal effects I wager.

Funnily enough, from what I know of circle-making, which is still fairly limited, some (many?) circle makers do carry out rituals before they start work. Whether they do or not, there is no doubting that the resultant formations become temporary, living temples and madalas for many people.

It seems clear to me that circlemakers understand that their creations have a profound effect on many people that visit them. Therefore a number of them carry out their work with good intention, and performing rituals can be one way of bringing such intention in. Whether this results in what some believe to be paranormal effects will depend on the preconceptions of the visitor, as you have pointed out in an earlier post.

 

[23_Tauri]

Have you seen page 5 of this report? It seems to be a very rare effect and in that report it is regarded as one indication that the circle is 'genuine'.

I just thought that if there was circlemaker instructions out there on how to do that or even prior mention of it I would like to see it. I would also like to see a team demonstrate making that rare effect on camera.

Already answered by another. Off centre swirls and living corn-dollies of various descriptions have been appearing with great regularity in formations for over ten years. They're not rare. Did you have a look at the ground shots of the 3rd August 2009 formation at Silbury Hill I posted earlier? Now that's fine handiwork.

 

[Limbo]

Funnily enough, from what I know of circle-making, which is still fairly limited, some (many?) circle makers do carry out rituals before they start work. Whether they do or not, there is no doubting that the resultant formations become temporary, living temples and madalas for many people.

It seems clear to me that circlemakers understand that their creations have a profound effect on many people that visit them. Therefore a number of them carry out their work with good intention, and performing rituals can be one way of bringing such intention in. Whether this results in what some believe to be paranormal effects will depend on the preconceptions of the visitor, as you have pointed out in an earlier post.

One such ritualistic shamanic sort of circlemaker is Danny from the circlemakers vid. That's why I've been asking Stray Cat about his making circles with makers like Danny. I haven't been getting satisfactory answers.

 

[Stray Cat]

One such ritualistic shamanic sort of circlemaker is Danny from the circlemakers vid. That's why I've been asking Stray Cat about his making circles with makers like Danny. I haven't been getting satisfactory answers.

Some people say prayers before starting work... Other's just get down to work. I have worked with both sorts and in each case the resulting circles have been met with the same critical acclaim from the croppies and researchers.

 

[Limbo]

Some people say prayers before starting work... Other's just get down to work. I have worked with both sorts and in each case the resulting circles have been met with the same critical acclaim from the croppies and researchers.

Saying prayers makes them 'bleevers' right? Or is it woo? Can't keep up.

Do you say the prayers with them?

 

[fls]

Have you seen page 5 of this report? It seems to be a very rare effect and in that report it is regarded as one indication that the circle is 'genuine'.

I just thought that if there was circlemaker instructions out there on how to do that or even prior mention of it I would like to see it. I would also like to see a team demonstrate making that rare effect on camera.

I don't make circles and the effect seems quite obvious to me. A couple of relatively naive circle-makers who simply started in one spot and then changed their mind, or two makers, one very slow and one faster, so that one circle overtook the other, or as 23_Tauri mentioned earlier - outlining a circle and then taking less care with how it is filled in. It requires someone to pretend to be quite dumb to try to hold it as a mystery.

Linda

 

[Stray Cat]

Saying prayers makes them 'bleevers' right? Or is it woo? Can't keep up.

I'm not interested in people's internal beliefs, I'm interested in the external physical effects. The prayers have no relationship to the finished physical result.

Do you say the prayers with them?

No.

 

[Marduk]

I haven't been getting satisfactory answers.

perhaps you should ask some less pointless questions then ?

 

[23_Tauri]

Saying prayers makes them 'bleevers' right? Or is it woo? Can't keep up.

No, it just demonstrates that some circle makers indulge in what some people (especially types that frequent the JREF forum ) would consider to be woo.

edit: Stray Cat, that's the 3rd time you've done that on this thread in 2 days, i.e. sneaking in and responding whilst I'm prattling about with my response! But it's not a problem

 

[fls]

You were swallowed by the ET mythology when you were an impressionable child, and based on that mythology you arrived at a number of expectations. The ET mythology and crop circles and whatever else have failed to live up to your expectations, and so you lost your religion, so to speak.

But...your expectations were flawed. Your expectations were based on your literal belief. But mythology isn't literal. You made the mistake of thinking UFOs are literally aliens and you based your expectations accordingly. So my friend it's back to the drawing board for you. You need to come up with a whole new set of expectations based on a whole new understanding of the nature of mythology.

I think that captures why is that I find Joseph Campbell unsatisfying and incomplete - it's this impression that one is stuck on comparative mythology as a description only, and that one is meant to wallow in it rather than explore its meaning in relation to physical events and interactions.

I personally prefer an approach to mythology which offers explanatory potential, such as The Literary Animal: Evolution and the Nature of Narrative, or these sorts of investigations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinian_literary_studies

Like I said earlier, once you forego credulity, it is difficult to return to that state. It becomes painfully obvious that all you are doing is propping up a somewhat capriciously chosen set of beliefs.

Linda

 

[Limbo]

No.

Maybe the crop circle phenomenon is subject to the sheep-goat effect and maybe you my friend are a goat. Your circlemaking and UFO hunting is quasi-religious for you, except that you have lost your quasi-faith.

Do you still make circles? Year after year, thinking you are on the right track by making circles and testing the researchers who study them and hoping for paranormal encounters in the fields?

Next time try making the circle with all shamans and pray with them and believe. A leap of quasi-faith is the only way to overcome the sheep-goat effect. If indeed it can be overcome.

 

[Limbo]

No, it just demonstrates that some circle makers indulge in what some people (especially types that frequent the JREF forum ) would consider to be woo.

And that means some circlemakers are actually psychic spellcasters, in a way. And some circlemakers, like Stray Cat, aren't. The result is some circles have some sort of paranormal effect for someone at some point, and some circles don't.

 

[23_Tauri]

And that means some circlemakers are actually psychic spellcasters, in a way. And some circlemakers, like Stray Cat, aren't. The result is some circles have some sort of paranormal effect at some point, and some don't.

No, I disagree. There is no evidence that circlemakers carrying out ritualistic activities has any influence on the resultant formation or those that visit it. That's why I clarified by saying that the paranormal effects experienced by some visitors is dependent upon the preconceptions of the visitor.

Ritual serves those carrying out the ritual. Period.

 

[Limbo]

No, I disagree. There is no evidence that circlemakers carrying out ritualistic activities has any influence on the resultant formation or those that visit it. That's why I clarified by saying that the paranormal effects experienced by some visitors is dependent upon the preconceptions of the visitor.

Ritual serves those carrying out the ritual. Period.

What sort of evidence would you expect there to be? If we live in the kind of reality that allows ritualistic activities to influence a resultant formation or those that visit it then we live in a universe in which mind is the fabric of reality. Or at least, dominate over or equal to matter/energy/spacetime. Our beliefs and intentions would influence such a reality and mind-over-matter would be possible. And so our conflicting beliefs would result in conflicting evidence to support and/or oppose those beliefs. That's the trickster, that's the sheep-goat effect. See what I mean? We must guard our expectations very carefully. Under them are assumptions about the nature of reality.