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Well, it's been six months...

Maybe because the question at issue was how long would he live if he remained in prison?

No where in MacAskill's explaination for the compassionate release does he discuss how long would al-Megrahi would live in prison vs. being released.

MacAskill was told that al-Megrahi was going to die very soon because:

"Assessment by a range of specialists has reached the firm consensus that his disease is, after several different trials of treatment, "hormone resistant" - that is resistant to any treatment options of known effectiveness."

It wasn't that Scottish prison doctors couldn't help him, it was MacAskill's belief there was no further treatmet for him, in the Scottish prison or anywhere. We now know this wasn't true.

Would you prefer Megrahi died in prison like Patrick Conlon, even though we know he may well be innocent, just as Patrick Conlon was?

Compassionate release is not based on the suspected innocence of the person in question. The issue is was al-Megrahi a suitable candidate for a compassionate release under Scottish law? I don't think so. I think MacAskill was mislead by British and Libyan doctors.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This-Week/Speeches/Safer-and-stronger/lockerbiedecision
 
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No, I didn't say that. I simply refused to reply to the "But they released Nazi war criminals for health reasons, so why not this guy?" so-called "argument".

The reason, of course, is that just because they were wrong to release the Nazi war criminals doesn't make it OK to release this guy. One might as well argue that killing innocent people is fine because it often occurred in the past.

This is just another attempt to paint those who are outraged at the release of this mass murderer as morally deficient.

That was not the intent of my post. The intent was to counter arguments like dtugg's in this post:
I am glad that my country is not "compassionate" enough to release say, KSM, if he someday develops cancer.
The release of the Nazi criminals shows the US could do that too. Somehow, these threads tend to turn into an (implicit) US vs. Europe flamefest. No flames yet in this thread, fortunately, but I do sense an undercurrent.

For the record, I'm against the release of the Nazi criminals - well, those convicted in Nuremberg were before my time, but I've witnessed part of the discussion on the "Breda Four" in the Netherlands (link).

As to Meghrabi, for me the temporal coincidence of his dropping his appeal and getting the release is just too much to consider the two things separately.
 
By the way, I dropped a stitch. I think Tripoli is about 1500 miles from Glasgow, not 5,000!

Compassionate release is not based on the suspected innocence of the person in question. The issue is was al-Megrahi a suitable candidate for a compassionate release under Scottish law? I don't think so. I think MacAskill was mislead by British and Libyan doctors.


Of course the compassionate release wasn't based on suspected innocence! Everybody has been quite clear about that. It was based on professional advice regarding Megrahi's clinical condition. I merely point out that if you start agitating for him to receive harsher treatment than he's actually been given, you might bear in mind that he could well be innocent of that crime.

The fact remains that it's very difficult to predict how long someone has to live. Everybody knows that. Everybody has anecdotes of people who beat the "predictions", and of course of people who died much sooner than expected. The three months thing is only a guideline, anyway. This is the only case where anybody has stressed about it, after the fact. Even Biggs isn't generating these column inches, which is actually a bit surprising given his history.

Was anybody pushing the envelope? I don't know, and I submit none of us knows. Megrahi's dad is currently ascribing it all to positive thinking and woo-woo "alternative" treatments. How often have we heard that one!

Mr Ali al-Megrahi believes that good genes, 'positive thinking' and alternative medicines could explain his son's remarkable survival.


:hb:

It's the sort of thing you hear all the time from the homoeopaths. Of course the patients on the other end of the bell curve don't tend to make it into the miracle cures books.

There is, of course, the observation that several different interests all came together to support Megrahi's release. The Libyans wanted him home, obviously. They don't think he did it, but see him as the scapegoat offered up to secure Libya's re-entry into the international community, sanctions lifted and so on. The Westminster government was pretty keen to fall in with this, see the deal in the desert and the BP oil deal. The USA concurred with that, because US companies also have huge commercial interests in that region. (Never forget that part. Obama's public condemnation hid a private satisfaction with the outcome.)

The trouble was that after the election of 3rd May 2007, none of these interests could do a damn thing about it. The power to release Megrahi lay with the Scottish government, which was not at all minded to fall in with Tony Blair's prisoner transfer machinations, and had no interest in international trade negotiations. Megrahi himself wasn't minded to apply for prisoner transfer anyway, preferring to stay put in the hope of clearing his name on appeal. While he was in good health, stalemate.

The appeal was the problem. It both prevented any possibility of prisoner transfer, and was in itself potentially highly embarrassing. Megrahi's lawyers were agitating for sight of certain documents the government absolutely, definitely, no way, wanted to release. Even if that hurdle was cleared by the "special advocate" ploy, the appeal was likely to be successful, leaving everybody in the embarrassing position of having nobody convicted of Scotland's worst atrocity, and no suspects either. The best they could do was drag their feet and delay the appeal process as long as possible. Which I have to say they were doing quite well at, but that couldn't go on forever.

The cancer diagnosis changed all that, simply by changing Megrahi's priorities. His plan, just to sit it out until the appeal process ground to completion, wasn't going to work. He didn't have that long. He became persuadable.

This is where it gets slightly Machiavellian. The Scottish government didn't want to go the prisoner transfer route (which would have secured withdrawal of the appeal), because they would then have got huge political stick for doing Tony Blair's wishes. They were prepared to go for compassionate release, because that was an independent decision politically, but the snag was, it didn't require withdrawal of the appeal. However, it was vital to get the appeal withdrawn too.

Somehow, Kenny MacAskill, while all along intending to go the compassionate release route, managed to pressurise Megrahi to withdraw the appeal anyway. The minute Megrahi signed on the dotted line, the compassionate release was announced.

Given the general eagerness to get all this done, as all the interests came together to support the release, did they pull the trigger a few months too soon? I have no idea, and I submit neither has any other member of the public. The unpredictability of cancer survival times is still a fact, and Karol Sikora is still saying he's astonished Megrahi is still alive.

The thing is, this is a complicated political football that has been kicked around here for years. Personally, I don't feel the slightest outrage that Megrahi got to go home, and is so far beating the predictions. Since he probably didn't do it anyway, I can't see any reason to stress about it.

I can see why people who didn't have any idea what was going on, might react negatively to hearing, out of the blue, "Lockerbie bomber released". But frankly, it ain't that simple. If we're into outrage, mine's reserved for Kenny's underhand little ploy in forcing the withdrawal of that appeal, which might have got us a bit further in finding out what really happened in 1988. 'Cos we certainly don't know that at present.

Rolfe.
 
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As to Meghrabi, for me the temporal coincidence of his dropping his appeal and getting the release is just too much to consider the two things separately.


Well, quite.

Robert Black, who is in a position to know, says all that needed to be done was not to let Megrahi know that compassionate release was the government's favoured solution, and keep him guessing that the key to getting home might be prisoner transfer. He was thus persuaded to drop the appeal so that he could apply for prisoner transfer as well as compassionate release.

Then, about 12 hours later, the compassionate release was announced.

I was following all this on the local Scottish news, day by day as it happened, and it was absolutely blatant. Kenny wanted rid of Megrahi all right, but he wasn't going to do prisoner transfer and look like Blair's poodle, but at the same time Megrahi was going nowhere until he withdrew that appeal.

If you want a scandal associated with this affair, that's where to look.

Rolfe.
 
Well, Sunday papers being Sunday papers....

The Sunday Mail is pretty crummy, but it dealt with the 3-month prognosis today.

Yesterday Prof Sikora insisted Megrahi was gravely ill and not expected to live much longer. He said: "Some people think we were paid billions of dollars by the Libyans to say he was going to die. The fact is there was no pressure at all on us to say he was going to die.
"On the balance of probabilities, there was a 50 per cent chance he would die in three months. If you saw the clinical detail.he had all the signs.
"I only saw him on one occasion but I went through everything and talked to the prison doctors who had seen him day in, day out
'I am very surprised that he is still alive.


You could certainly say, "He would say that, wouldn't he," but I've known of Karol Sikora as a leading specialist in his field for many many years, and I find it very unlikely he could be paid to lie about a patient.

The other interesting thing was a letter to the editor of Scotland on Sunday saying much what I said in my previous post.

Roger Salvesen said:
The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Board had discovered evidence which gave grounds for a second appeal. If Megrahi had been transferred to Libya under the Prisoner Transfer Agreement, the appeal would have lapsed. But he was released on compassionat
lg.php
e grounds so the appeal could have continued in his absence. But Megrahi specifically asked the Appeal Court to abandon the appeal. Did Kenny MacAskill's visit to Greenock prison have anything to do with this?


I'd like an answer to that too, but I don't suppose I'm going to get one.

Rolfe.
 
You could certainly say, "He would say that, wouldn't he," but I've known of Karol Sikora as a leading specialist in his field for many many years, and I find it very unlikely he could be paid to lie about a patient.

Maybe he is just a lousy, incompetent doctor.
 
I find it hard to believe that he would be able to do that. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer by the British doctors after all.

There are two possibilities ... one is that he's fighting the prostate cancer with reasonable success. This is unlikely, but if it was diagnosed early on, not impossible. The chance for a remission is unlikely, but living for months is not unheard of. That being said, he was expected to die within three months when he was released, so this case would have to be somewhat exceptional - again not impossible and not without precendens, but quite unlikely.

Another possibility is that his cancer was an excuse to release him and they inflated how bad it was. Perhaps it was discovered very early on and they claimed it was terminal to let him go. Why would UK do that is a mystery, however.

McHrozni

Or the other, more likely possiblity. Since Great Britain's health care is nationalized, ala Obama, Reid, Pelosi and gang, their doctors work for the government. The government has acknowledged wanting business contracts with Libya. They pressured the doctors to give a diagnosis that would support Big Brother.

Welcome to the world of Socialized Medicine.
 
Or the other, more likely possiblity. Since Great Britain's health care is nationalized, ala Obama, Reid, Pelosi and gang, their doctors work for the government. The government has acknowledged wanting business contracts with Libya. They pressured the doctors to give a diagnosis that would support Big Brother.

Welcome to the world of Socialized Medicine.


:dl:

Rolfe.
 
Since Great Britain's health care is nationalized, ala Obama, Reid, Pelosi and gang, their doctors work for the government. The government has acknowledged wanting business contracts with Libya. They pressured the doctors to give a diagnosis that would support Big Brother.

What the heck does Obama, Reid, and/or Pelosi have to do with Scotland's health care system or al-Megrahi's compassionate release?

You do know that that British and Scotish governments are different, right?
 
Well, quite.

Robert Black, who is in a position to know, says all that needed to be done was not to let Megrahi know that compassionate release was the government's favoured solution, and keep him guessing that the key to getting home might be prisoner transfer. He was thus persuaded to drop the appeal so that he could apply for prisoner transfer as well as compassionate release.

Then, about 12 hours later, the compassionate release was announced.

I was following all this on the local Scottish news, day by day as it happened, and it was absolutely blatant. Kenny wanted rid of Megrahi all right, but he wasn't going to do prisoner transfer and look like Blair's poodle, but at the same time Megrahi was going nowhere until he withdrew that appeal.

If you want a scandal associated with this affair, that's where to look.

Rolfe.



So...neither the US nor England is gonna tell Scottland what ta do! :mad:


:rolleyes:
 

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