Do the Republics not realize their talking points were so obvious?

[KoihimeNakamura]

Hold on. You mean the Republican party is just trying to derail health care?

I would have never guessed.

 

[seayakin]

I think the problem is that politics seems to require a great amount of hyperbole similar to what circuses and carnivals use. I have seen plenty from both parties because so much is staged for generating an emotional response from the public and not actual discussion or illumination of facts.

I did not see the "health care debate" but I wondered if they even tried to start at the beginning. Did they even talk about what each side sees as the problems with the health care system?

Do the Republicans feel health care should be a right? This seems to be part of the issue. The republicans don't seem to believe people have a right to health care whereas many democrats clearly believe this. The only area there seems to be agreement on is that it is too expensive.

 

[Cynic]

Whereas the left's intelligentsia requires a slightly more sophisticated brand of sophistry in their memeplexes before their mental models are emotionally satisfied and their behavior resumes the animalistic spreading of their memes.

Best to just recognize this is a free country, and learn to leave people who are not yourself the hell alone.

While I agree that this is a free country and that people who are not myself should be left alone, I feel compelled to point out the irony of this message, coming as it does in defense of the right. Social conservatives, who are most closely and overwhelmingly associated with the right, consistently seek to do precisely the opposite of the sentiment you've just expressed. They want to make the country less free along a broad spectrum of behavior to better suit their own sensibilities.

 

[Thunder]

Conservatives want to leave people alone..huh??

and yet, they wanna force woman to lose control of their bodies, prevent gay Americans from having civil rights, arrest people for being against the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, and a whole host of other authoritarian things.

Conservatives does NOT....equal Libertarians.

 

[Thunder]

Gallup used to have polls that showed that the Democrats got a higher percentage of the vote from high school dropouts than they did from high school graduates, and a higher percentage of the vote from high school graduates than from college graduates.

when...before 1964?

 

[Ziggurat]

when...before 1964?

Try 2004.

 

[OneShotKi11]

From what i watched, and from what i always see...

Obama's reply to everyones talking point is "Its in the legislature", "If you look in there we address that topic". Thats his answer to many of the points i see him respond to.

Now maybe it is, and maybe it isnt. I am just representing a group in America who isnt as informed as i would like to be on the topic, but when i do sit down and watch, and i hear Republicans make a point that i am waiting for the President to make a good response to. I cant even express the disappointment i feel when i hear these lame responses. I want to be informed, i am waiting for Obama's response to shutdown all who oppose this Bill, but he never answers anything directly. Its always "In the Bill".

Pisses me off to no END!
Maybe thats just me. Like i said, i try to stay ontop of the issues, but im 25 and just starting to get into politics. I know i dont know everything i should.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

It kinda is. Granted, I never watched it, at work, etc...

 

[AlBell]

... I know i dont know everything i should.

Concerning a 2400 page law, no one will know what's in it until our Demo'rat "best & brightest" decode it for the rest of us dummies.

 

[Drysdale]

From what i watched, and from what i always see...

Obama's reply to everyones talking point is "Its in the legislature", "If you look in there we address that topic". Thats his answer to many of the points i see him respond to.

Now maybe it is, and maybe it isnt. I am just representing a group in America who isnt as informed as i would like to be on the topic, but when i do sit down and watch, and i hear Republicans make a point that i am waiting for the President to make a good response to. I cant even express the disappointment i feel when i hear these lame responses. I want to be informed, i am waiting for Obama's response to shutdown all who oppose this Bill, but he never answers anything directly. Its always "In the Bill".

Pisses me off to no END!
Maybe thats just me. Like i said, i try to stay ontop of the issues, but im 25 and just starting to get into politics. I know i dont know everything i should.

Well, let me state first off I'm not an Obama fan. I'm not claiming impartiality here at all. And I'm not a staunch republican either. I fall in that middle group. But I was hoping for a more open debate. Now, I did'nt watch the whole thing. And I dont know who could have sat thru the duration to be honest. It appears to me, Obama does'nt have a clue as to what's actually in the bill or he does'nt want to be caught talking about it to prevent it being used against him later. He talked in generalities and platitudes just like you've mentioned, with no specifics from what I watched.

Which makes me wonder why any democrat that wants to be reelected would vote for it. He's trying to distance himself from it as far as possible to prevent any backlash against himself and let congress take the heat. If it's popular he can step in and take credit. If not since he has'nt talked about any specifics in it he can feign surprise if it's bad. I just dont understand how the dem representative's cant see what he's doing.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[novice skeptic]

Or did they not care?

And if they didn't care, are they convinced their base is so malleable there is no need for an actual intelligent discussion? Just drill home the talking points message over and over like an Excedrin commercial? Was that really their conscious tactic today?

There are several threads on health care reform. This is another one. I was disappointed Obama didn't call people more on their campaign speeches in the health care reform meeting today. I can guess he was concerned about just being accused of grandstanding given all the Republic criticism leading up to the meeting today. He pointed out the crap here and there, but not nearly enough to move the meeting along.

While the Republics went on and on about the meetings needing to be on CSPAN, it's clear that the drawback of being on CSPAN is you get very little substance in the discussion.

What's with these guys other than being on a mission to block and destroy the health care reform?


So that's a bit of a rant. The issues here is who are these guys kidding? Do they think no one notices their lack of any substantive discussion? Or do they not care because they aren't marketing to a critically thinking crowd? On Chris Matthews right now, they are discussing how even when a substantive discussion began, Baynor sabotaged it with an ill-timed a campaign speech.

Did you listen to Paul Ryan? Was his statement talking point campaign 30 second sound bytes or well-thought out critique (whether you agreed with it or not)?

I'm honestly not sure what the point of your post or this thread was other than to say you don't like Republicans. There's not much of an argument to debate in your thread, and honestly it seems pretty pointless.

 

[tyr_13]

Concerning a 2400 page law, no one will know what's in it until our Demo'rat "best & brightest" decode it for the rest of us dummies.

'I don't understand it, therefor it must be bad' is the same logic used to deny evolution. Dummies indeed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I was thinking the same thing.

I thought this thread was going to be about all those republics at the Olympics.

Sorry, see my sig for the reason.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

even though no compromises came out of this, I think it was a wonderful exercise in peaceful Democracy and our ability to talk about issues.

I think it was very very cool and informative. 6 months too late...but still very cool.

Sadly, that's just one more of the talking points.

The Republics have been whining on and on about being excluded from the process. Yet they were never excluded. Right from the start the Progressives have been disappointed by how much the Democratic Legislators were caving to Republic demands.

And the majority of the discussions were on CSPAN. Only some of the last deal making wasn't (not that the results of the deal making wasn't an embarrassment).

So after all that whining about not being included and wanting discussions to be public, what did they do? They played to the cameras and wasted most of the time.

This of course comes from the the most hypocritical legislators who met repeatedly without even letting Democrats come to the meetings. Does anyone remember that back room budget bill the Republics produced then demanded a vote the next day giving no one not in the meetings time to read the bill at all?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Then your beloved Democrats are doing a piss poor job of refuting the lies and the myths.

I don't disagree with this at all. The Democrats have for a long time been the worse marketers of the two parties. They don't report to the cameras with 10 or 20 of them ready to repeat Frank Luntz's talking points for the day. But they also don't respond to the points they way I would.

Obama did on several occasions during this process. But it seems he was cowed by the whining this particular meeting was a "trap". So instead of calling out all the talking points and tactics he only addressed about a 1/4 of them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can you please quote for me what substantive points the Dems made?

Obama asked for specifics. The Republics claimed they had some but then produced none.

Obama pointed out the talking points were not accomplishing anything. That was correct.

Obama asked people to stop griping about the things they didn't like and consider the areas where there was agreement. The Republics continued to offer nothing but complaints.

For the substance, see the Bills themselves and the discussion I assume is ongoing in the other threads. These Bills while not perfect have been completed and passed the House and Senate separately.

This meeting was not supposed to be one where the Democrats presented their ideas. It was supposed to be a meeting where the Republics presented tangible solutions to the health care system problems. The Democrats have their Bills. The Republics claimed to have their own ideas for solving the identified problems. Obama called their bluff. They had little to nothing to offer.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think the problem is that politics seems to require a great amount of hyperbole similar to what circuses and carnivals use. I have seen plenty from both parties because so much is staged for generating an emotional response from the public and not actual discussion or illumination of facts.

I did not see the "health care debate" but I wondered if they even tried to start at the beginning. Did they even talk about what each side sees as the problems with the health care system?

Do the Republicans feel health care should be a right? This seems to be part of the issue. The republicans don't seem to believe people have a right to health care whereas many democrats clearly believe this. The only area there seems to be agreement on is that it is too expensive.

According to Mary Matalin, a Republic spokesperson, the Democrats think health care is a right and the Republics think health care is a responsibility.

I'm not sure how that translates to what a Republic would do about the folks who cannot afford health care. It would seem the Republics don't believe the working poor exist.

Ben Stein made the absurd claim that Republics were taxpayers and Democrats were tax recipients. It boggles the mind that he believes such nonsense but I think it reflects the underlying belief that people are poor by their own fault. They must be lazy welfare leeches and the good working folks are burdened by these mooches.

If that's how you view the uninsured and working poor, it's little wonder you don't want universal health care coverage. But even that doesn't explain the Republic denial that we are already paying for these uninsured people every time they show up in an ED and the cost gets shifted to the insured.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

From what i watched, and from what i always see...

Obama's reply to everyones talking point is "Its in the legislature", "If you look in there we address that topic". Thats his answer to many of the points i see him respond to.

Now maybe it is, and maybe it isnt. I am just representing a group in America who isnt as informed as i would like to be on the topic, but when i do sit down and watch, and i hear Republicans make a point that i am waiting for the President to make a good response to. I cant even express the disappointment i feel when i hear these lame responses. I want to be informed, i am waiting for Obama's response to shutdown all who oppose this Bill, but he never answers anything directly. Its always "In the Bill".

Pisses me off to no END!
Maybe thats just me. Like i said, i try to stay ontop of the issues, but im 25 and just starting to get into politics. I know i dont know everything i should.

Which points would you be referring to? Maybe I can help you.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Concerning a 2400 page law, no one will know what's in it until our Demo'rat "best & brightest" decode it for the rest of us dummies.

There are numerous summaries of the Bills on the Net. Have you tried looking for 'health care bill summary' on Google?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, let me state first off I'm not an Obama fan. I'm not claiming impartiality here at all. And I'm not a staunch republican either. I fall in that middle group. But I was hoping for a more open debate. Now, I did'nt watch the whole thing. And I dont know who could have sat thru the duration to be honest. It appears to me, Obama does'nt have a clue as to what's actually in the bill or he does'nt want to be caught talking about it to prevent it being used against him later. He talked in generalities and platitudes just like you've mentioned, with no specifics from what I watched.

So you didn't really watch it but you know what was said?

I watched the entire conference except for the first hour.

Obama: Here's the problems we need the health care legislation to solve. What are your ideas for solving the problems?

Republics: Start Over. It's a government takeover (a lie). It adds government funding for abortion (a lie). The Bill is too long, too big, the problem is too big, yadda yadda. The American people have rejected the bill (another lie).


I got a kick out of this analogy:

Recent responses by Republican leaders to Democratic proposals on health care reform remind me of the scene in the movie Goldfinger in which Goldfinger has James Bond strapped to a table and sets a powerful laser moving up the table to cut Bond in half. Bond becomes agitated (to say the least) and asks what Goldfinger wants. Does he want him to talk? Goldfinger seems slightly puzzled or amused by the question. "No, Mr. Bond, I want you to die," he replies.