• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Major Copyright Judgement

It's too simplistic to assume rights maximize social utility. Rights just do what they do, and they might have some pretty dire consequences for all I know. You might argue that it would be in our interest to only deem something a right if it maximizes social utility, but it doesn't follow that rights actually do that in their current state.

That being said, Kevin is right. Rights are man-made. AvalonXQ is also correct when he (she?) says that GreyICE's concept of right can only be derived from God, the supernatural, and so on. That's because if you look around, you won't find anything that could tell you how things should be. You can only determine the way things are and predict the way they will be.

In short, show me evidence that natural rights exist, or give up.
 
They come from a logical framework of philosophy and ethics. There's literally been thousands of pages written on the subject, I'd suggest you take some college courses on it if you're interested, or read philosophers. You can check out the background of the philosophers the writers of the constitution based their rights on, the Magna Carta, the International Bill of Human Rights, and other sources. Epicurus, Kant, Foucault, Joyce, I'm not really sure where to point you to start.

Sorry, but you don't get to point to a mountain of literature which you have never even read to dodge that question.

Now with formatting:

Where do you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

Gesturing vaguely towards a "logical framework of philosophy and ethics" doesn't cut any ice around here.

That was your best argument? That literally 2,000 years of philosophy and ethical framework don't exist?

It's argument from vast ignorance? Really?

More like 2500, but your problem is that you obviously don't understand it.

Where do you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls? If you think it's from "a logical framework of philosophy and ethics" then explain this logical framework of philosophy and ethics.
 
Sorry, but you don't get to point to a mountain of literature which you have never even read to dodge that question.

Now with formatting:

Where do you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

Gesturing vaguely towards a "logical framework of philosophy and ethics" doesn't cut any ice around here.
I actually have read the literature.

Now do you deny that there is a branch of philosophy related to rights, ethics, and freedoms? And that there were notable philosophers, including the ones I have cited, who wrote in that branch?

If you do not deny this, why would you repeat your asinine question?

More like 2500, but your problem is that you obviously don't understand it.
:dl:
:id:
 
Last edited:
I actually have read the literature.

Now do you deny that there is a branch of philosophy related to rights, ethics, and freedoms? And that there were notable philosophers, including the ones I have cited, who wrote in that branch?

If you do not deny this, why would you repeat your asinine question?

I'm not denying the existence of the literature. I'm asking you where you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

You're desperately trying to convey the impression that the philosophy you are gesturing towards contains a sensible answer to that question. Yet you cannot tell us what that answer is. Why is that, do you think?
 
What about the individual freedom of using the music I purchase in a manner I desire? Or the freedom to download whatever I want?

Or is it only the individual freedoms of the artist that count?

Please, don't tell me you don't know about how this works. "How about my freedom to kill this person" isn't a valid counter.

You have the right to make a living by producing art, and if someone steals this idea from you and makes a living off of it while you don't, you think it's their freedom being respected ?
 
That freedom cannot be protected even with copyright law. It can only be conferred, since it simply does not exist until you have a legal apparatus capable of enforcing your claims. As you intimate, in a world without intellectual property law, you have no freedom to enforce ownership claims over a song you've composed. Similarly, I am unable to enforce my claim that everyone else in the country owes me a dollar, pending passage of the Give a Working Man a Break Act of 2010, which defenders of liberty everywhere ought to vote for. Freeeeeeeedommmmmmmm!

The pertinent question, then, is why we should like to confer that particular freedom, particularly given that there is a range of options that can bring about the desired outcome.

Huh ? How does that answer what I said ? Aren't there, you know, laws protecting intellectual property ? I thought that was the whole point of the thread.
 
Freedom is the ability to do things, and other peoples' inability to stop you from doing those things. Property certainly does have some freedom associated to it -- but what you're talking about isn't freedom at all. It's restriction.
If I own a piece of land, I can prohibit you from trespassing on it. This is a good thing, but it's a real stretch to call it "freedom" -- my right to restrict others from using my land isn't about freedom at all; it's about the opposite.
Copyright, which is entirely the right to stop other people from doing certain things, isn't about "freedom" at all. There is nothing that copyright actually enables you to do. All copyright does is restrict the freedom of others.
This doesn't make copyright automatically bad; as I said, many of our laws are based on restriction. But don't confuse restriction with freedom.

Freedom IS restriction. If I'm to be free then other people must be prevented from infringing on those freedoms of mine and vice-versa. Otherwise what you have is chaos, and chaos isn't freedom.
 
Where do you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

Why do you keep coming back with that STRAWMAN ? I NEVER said they were inherent. I said they existed and, if you must know, they exist because we made them up. How does that change ANYTHING about what I said ?
 
I'm not denying the existence of the literature. I'm asking you where you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

You're desperately trying to convey the impression that the philosophy you are gesturing towards contains a sensible answer to that question. Yet you cannot tell us what that answer is. Why is that, do you think?

*sigh*

Ethics contains a logical foundation to explain rights and responsibilities to others.

If you have a specific point you're curious on, you can query it, but you seem stuck on fairies, which is utterly pointless. Perhaps if you specify how your fairies have given us Social Utility, we'd have a starting point, but as it is, your question is broad and pointless.

Please don't tell me I don't understand these points again, the irony meters were just starting to come down in price with the 9/11 truthers dying out. We don't need a whole new source of pointless destruction.
 
Last edited:
GreyICE, you still haven't explained what that foundation actually is. You're sidestepping the issue.

Ethics doesn't lay logical foundations for rights and responsibilities. Sure, we can attempt to explain why people act the way they generally do, but that's a descriptive endeavor, not a prescriptive one. Anything prescriptive is by definition not based on empirical reality, at least not entirely.
 
This is what you are doing here:

(1) You claim ethics provides some sort of absolute grounding for rights and responsibilities.

(2) You fail to provide evidence for that claim

(3) Then you challenge people to explain why social security exists.

(4) If they have no answer or a bad answer (it's a difficult empirical question), you go back to (1).

Sorry, that's a God-of-the-gaps sort of answer. Just because we don't have a well-tested theory to explain why social security exists right now, it doesn't mean social security is derived from absolute rights and responsibilities. It seems very clear to me that they are merely social institutions -- just like it's clear that human beings have evolved, even though we don't know how it happened step by step.

You are the one making extraordinary claims. You have to provide some pretty convincing evidence to show that rights aren't simply social institutions. Except that isn't even possible, because empirical evidence can only tell us how things are, not how things should be.
 
This is what you are doing here:

(1) You claim ethics provides some sort of absolute grounding for rights and responsibilities.

(2) You fail to provide evidence for that claim

(3) Then you challenge people to explain why social security exists.

(4) If they have no answer or a bad answer (it's a difficult empirical question), you go back to (1).

Sorry, that's a God-of-the-gaps sort of answer. Just because we don't have a well-tested theory to explain why social security exists right now, it doesn't mean social security is derived from absolute rights and responsibilities. It seems very clear to me that they are merely social institutions -- just like it's clear that human beings have evolved, even though we don't know how it happened step by step.

You are the one making extraordinary claims. You have to provide some pretty convincing evidence to show that rights aren't simply social institutions. Except that isn't even possible, because empirical evidence can only tell us how things are, not how things should be.

Well now, this is an actual post instead of accusing me of believing in fairies, although it does have some complete nonsense in it (God of the gaps? Really? Just because it's legal in California doesn't mean you have to indulge...).

1) I never said ethics provides an absolute grounding for rights. Avalon said that. Avalon is a theist, and believes the absolute ground for rights flows from God. Whether or not you want to argue that, you're arguing with him, not me. What we are discussing is a practical grounding for rights. Kevin even agrees with this (he moved away from his 'rights cannot exist' position to 'rights are subordinate to social utility') so I'm not sure what you're doing here. He states that rights should be grounded in social utility. I said they should be grounded in individual freedoms and utility.

2) I'm not providing evidence to an idiot who can't get off fairies. If he cannot even bother to think through the subject enough to ask a simple question about rights in ethics (which is probably one of the most discussed topics of all times) and instead handwaves the entire thing, how the hell is it worth talking it out?

3) Social security never came up. Fail.

4) You forgot profit, since your point 3 could as well have been '...' for all the relevance it had.


In any case, the questions you could ask are many. You could ask 'what natural rights do you believe exist, and why?' You could discuss natural law. You could discuss human rights and the various documents related to them.

But what you cannot do is suggest that social utility is not a function of individual utility. Individuals make up society. This is tautological, axiomatic (as well as to say molecules are made up of atoms). Social utility is therefore obviously a function of individual utility. One cannot claim that something has social utility if it decreases every individual's utility.

You called this an extraordinary claim. I call it a tad like stating 'the sun rises in the east.'

What's your basis for disagreement here?
 
Last edited:
Ugh, for some reason I read "perhaps if you specify how your fairies have given us Social Utility" as "perhaps if you specify how your fairies have given us Social Security". No idea why. Apologies.

Anyway, I agree with you that it's not clear that rights come from social utility (whatever that really means). I also don't think it's clear they come from individual utility. I think they are complicated beasts that evolved partly from empathy and other feelings, partly from the values held by dominant groups, and partly from a number of religious and non-religious ideologies that piled up over the centuries.

Why would you ever consider those rights "natural", though? They are entirely defined by society, and the real world out there doesn't care about them at all. Kevin does have his opinions about where institutional rights come from, and I don't quite agree with him, but that wasn't the main thrust of his argument. His point was that natural rights don't exist. Institutional rights and natural rights are two completely different things.
 
Freedom IS restriction. If I'm to be free then other people must be prevented from infringing on those freedoms of mine and vice-versa.

This is a reasonable point, but that doesn't mean we can't distinguish between rules (or at least parts of rules) that primarily restrict versus those that primarily permit. The only thing that copyright laws do is stop people from doing things -- they don't actually allow you to do anything. So, copyright laws don't increase freedom; they restrict freedom.
 
*sigh*

Ethics contains a logical foundation to explain rights and responsibilities to others.

So state where you think these "rights" or "individual liberties" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls? You just can't do it. All you can do is gesture towards a huge pile of literature which you don't understand and pretend the answer is in there somewhere.

Well guess what, it isn't in there.

Please don't tell me I don't understand these points again

It's clear that you don't, and you're just bluffing.

1) I never said ethics provides an absolute grounding for rights. Avalon said that. Avalon is a theist, and believes the absolute ground for rights flows from God. Whether or not you want to argue that, you're arguing with him, not me. What we are discussing is a practical grounding for rights. Kevin even agrees with this (he moved away from his 'rights cannot exist' position to 'rights are subordinate to social utility') so I'm not sure what you're doing here. He states that rights should be grounded in social utility. I said they should be grounded in individual freedoms and utility.

So I ask you once again, where do these "individual freedoms" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

In any case, the questions you could ask are many. You could ask 'what natural rights do you believe exist, and why?' You could discuss natural law.

Or I could ask you the most fundamental question of all, which is asking you to state where you think these "rights", or "individual liberties", or "individual freedoms", or "natural laws" come from? God? Fairies? "Self-evident" ass-pulls?

You keep trying to tap-dance around that question because you have no answer to it.

If you can't answer that question, how can you possibly answer the other questions?

But what you cannot do is suggest that social utility is not a function of individual utility. Individuals make up society. This is tautological, axiomatic (as well as to say molecules are made up of atoms). Social utility is therefore obviously a function of individual utility. One cannot claim that something has social utility if it decreases every individual's utility.

You called this an extraordinary claim. I call it a tad like stating 'the sun rises in the east.'

This is not what you argued, and pretending otherwise is dishonest.

What you actually argued was that "To reach maximum social utility, it only makes sense to begin with maximizing individual utility" and that "To start at social utility and attempt to reach maximum aggregate individual utility is a pointless exercise. You must assume so much that one would not know where to start. It would boil down to a simple statement - one believes that such a thing must be socially beneficial because one knows socially beneficial things benefit society".

Those are the nonsensical, woolly-minded claims I was criticising. The claim that something which increases everyone's individual utility increases social utility, and that something which decreases everyone's individual utility decreases social utility, is indeed obvious and trivial. However it is completely dishonest to pretend either than this was your point, or that I ever disagreed with this trivial claim.
 
Why do you keep coming back with that STRAWMAN ? I NEVER said they were inherent. I said they existed and, if you must know, they exist because we made them up. How does that change ANYTHING about what I said ?

If they exist just because we made them up, then if they are no longer serving us well we can scrap them and make something else up.

For example it's possible that the existing copyright system for audio recordings of musical performances is no longer preferable to alternative systems where unlimited non-commercial duplication by individual citizens is not illegal. To find out we'd have to talk about the costs and benefits of enforcing the current copyright system for audio recordings.
 
Ugh, for some reason I read "perhaps if you specify how your fairies have given us Social Utility" as "perhaps if you specify how your fairies have given us Social Security". No idea why. Apologies.

Anyway, I agree with you that it's not clear that rights come from social utility (whatever that really means). I also don't think it's clear they come from individual utility. I think they are complicated beasts that evolved partly from empathy and other feelings, partly from the values held by dominant groups, and partly from a number of religious and non-religious ideologies that piled up over the centuries.

Why would you ever consider those rights "natural", though? They are entirely defined by society, and the real world out there doesn't care about them at all. Kevin does have his opinions about where institutional rights come from, and I don't quite agree with him, but that wasn't the main thrust of his argument. His point was that natural rights don't exist. Institutional rights and natural rights are two completely different things.
They are natural rights because they flow naturally from the nature of humanity. Human nature is to observe, to process, to reason. Humans think, work, create.

A natural right, for instance, is freedom of thought. Humans each observe a slightly different to very different set of events and experiences, and each process it differently. Therefore, the freedom to our own unique thoughts is a natural right - it exists whether the law says that it is legal or not. While 'thought crimes' at various points in history have existed, it has never been possible to remove this right.

From this flows the human rights of freedom of expression and freedom of belief (frequently named freedom of religion). Expression is the sharing of thoughts between individuals. This individual right allows each individual to share his thoughts, to refine them with others. Belief is more or less a combination of expression and thought, and therefore is a human right as well.

Estate is another right. Each person can work, and almost all will work. The freedom of estate allows each person to possess goods and property. Each person labors to create, and each may possess goods.

Many times has the freedom of estate been limited. Marxists, for instance, believe that possessions were a grant of society - they assigned property instead of granting each person the freedom of ownership. All that happened was that people used other means to trade for property. The black market, and the resulting collapse of their entire labor and production system as a result of revoking this freedom - a revocation which ultimately failed.

From this flows the right to labor where one wills. The right to own the products of one's labor, and trade them to others for recompense. The right to equal opportunity - any may trade with another. Once again, many societies have restricted these rights, and each time, individuals suffer and the restrictions chaff and fail.



Kevin's proto-marxism and slightly creepy anal fetish aside, these rights exist naturally because of the nature of humanity. Were we the sort of species that could not think independently, we would not have freedom of thought. But we are, and we have it. We have rights that flow from that freedom, independent of what a 'society' deems reasonable.

Society, of course, exists for a purpose. Some times these rights collide, and society negotiates them. There's large value to everyone for everyone to have 'common property' (imagine, for a moment, a separate water network for each person in America, or a separate road system). While it's easy to say that each person has the right to property, a judicial system and police force are necessary to enforce that right. Society even has to sometimes negotiate the difference between a single individual right and a large collective right (the individual right to labor in the homemade bomb making industry kind of conflicts with our individual right not to get blown up (frequently called the 'right to life' although that term is a tad hijacked at the moment). Similarly, taxes are a compromise that allows us to pay for these services which we all benefit from.

But Kevin's ideas that social utility is the determining factor is nonsense. Eventually someone will decide that social utility calls for restricting the freedom of thought, or the freedom of property, or the freedom of belief. And they'll have plenty of convincing reasons why. Hell, look at Kevin's call to restrict the freedom to own one's labor in the name of some 'social utility' that occurs when no one can profit from creative endeavors!
 
Last edited:
This is not what you argued, and pretending otherwise is dishonest.
Oh this is cute. You put two of my arguments next to eachother, then claim they're different. Thank you, Captain Obvious!
What you actually argued was that "To reach maximum social utility, it only makes sense to begin with maximizing individual utility" and that "To start at social utility and attempt to reach maximum aggregate individual utility is a pointless exercise. You must assume so much that one would not know where to start. It would boil down to a simple statement - one believes that such a thing must be socially beneficial because one knows socially beneficial things benefit society".

Those are the nonsensical, woolly-minded claims I was criticising. The claim that something which increases everyone's individual utility increases social utility, and that something which decreases everyone's individual utility decreases social utility, is indeed obvious and trivial. However it is completely dishonest to pretend either than this was your point, or that I ever disagreed with this trivial claim.
Since it is obvious that social utility flows from individual utility, lets examine what you call nonsensical:

The idea that individual utility is more fundamental than social utility, and that by seeking to increase individual utility, you by nature increase social utility, and therefore to decide individual liberties and rights on the basis of social utility, is ass-backwards (to use one of those anal references that attract you so).

You call this 'obvious nonsense,' you compare it to creationism and mythical creatures, and you talk dirty about my ass (no, I don't get this last one either). Because I hypothesize this.

Excuse me if I'm not finding many reasons to take you seriously. I have a hypothesis it's because they don't currently exist.
 
They are natural rights because they flow naturally from the nature of humanity. Human nature is to observe, to process, to reason. Humans think, work, create.

This is the naturalistic fallacy on stilts. Not only are you claiming that "natural = good", but you are going on to claim that "natural = we have a right to it".

Like everyone else who falls into the naturalistic fallacy, of course, you are highly selective in what you consider "natural". You consider property rights "natural" despite the fact that some hunter/gatherer societies do not have personal property systems as we understand them, you consider equal opportunity "natural" despite the fact that for most of history the idea would have been considered ridiculous and so on. Whereas all sorts of unpleasant behaviours common throughout human history are apparently not "natural" and do not give birth to a "flow" which creates "rights".

Intellectually, you are on the same level as the people who made up reasons why oppressing women was "natural" and therefore right. You're just trying to dress up your unreasoning beliefs as somehow objective or scientific.
 

Back
Top Bottom