RE: Legislation... what's the difference between prostitution and porn?

[Ziggurat]

Yet most of the money spent on the Illinois side comes from Missouri residents. (At the very least, it's possible to prove that this industry would fail but for the money spent by Missouri residents.) So how can Missouri logically argue that it's against our community standards?

Because it's only a self-selected minority subset of Missouri residents who cross the border to spend money in strip clubs. The standards of this subset do not indicate the standards of the community of Missouri residents as a whole.

There are problems with the concept of community standards (especially on the internet), but Missouri wouldn't have much problem with this particular example in a court of law.

 

[FarmallMTA]

Can someone clarify this for me... maybe I have confused myself.

Porn is sex for money on camera
Prostitution is sex for money.

Why does (some) countries allow porn but not prostitution? What is the justification?

Beats me.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Because it's only a self-selected minority subset of Missouri residents who cross the border to spend money in strip clubs. The standards of this subset do not indicate the standards of the community of Missouri residents as a whole.

There are problems with the concept of community standards (especially on the internet), but Missouri wouldn't have much problem with this particular example in a court of law.

No I realize that. I'm just curious about the logic of it.

So "community standards" seems to me to be what we profess rather than what we actually do.

The "self-selected minority" argument fails utterly. No one on the Illinois side is forced to go into a strip club. The clientele is entirely a self-selected minority.

Heck, the same can be said of WalMart in at least some communities!

ETA: Note, I'm talking about the legality of showing specifically defined body parts. (There are burlesque shows in St. Louis these days, and the rules on what they can and can't show are laughably specific!) I'm not talking about possible zoning ordinances or rules regulating what kind of signs they can have in public view. That's a different issue. In most of these places, I understand you have to pay to get in! So it's a self-selected minority regardless of the community standards. So if "community standards" doesn't suggest some sort of hypocritical unanimity, I'm not sure what it means.

 

[I Ratant]

There's an occasional problem with prostitution locally, but not with porn.
The most recent sweep for prostitutes netted 16 johns and 6 girls, along a particular stretch of highway with many motels.
The motel owners apparently aren't adverse to the girls using the rooms, they object to the type of character the johns are.. druggies etc.
Porn is available at many video stores, age restricted.
I think the difference over the two ways of getting sex are that prostitution can lead to real problems with the activity. Girls getting abused/murdered, drugs, etc. Local real crime.
Porn, that's all out of the direct scene, with the activities choreographed (many poorly and with lots of unintended humor) and presumably everything is done without coercion or danger to the participants.

 

[kerikiwi]

and presumably everything is done without coercion or danger to the participants.

Why would that be presumed about pornography but not prostitution?

 

[KingMerv00]

I think the difference over the two ways of getting sex are that prostitution can lead to real problems with the activity. Girls getting abused/murdered, drugs, etc. Local real crime.

Don't you think that is mostly due to the fact they have to hide in the shadowy underworld to begin with?

Seems like brothels with bouncers would solve most of those problems.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the difference over the two ways of getting sex are that prostitution can lead to real problems with the activity. Girls getting abused/murdered, drugs, etc. Local real crime.

That's a slippery slope argument.

We already have laws against abusing girls, murder, illegal drug use and distribution, etc.

 

[FarmallMTA]

Anybody who can watch this and not be disturbed at the base nature of porn has got to be seriously bereft of any and all morals.

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/7/Porn-star-Chasey-Lain-meltdown-Part-2-545657.html

Yuck. Just... yuck.

 

[KingMerv00]

Anybody who can watch this and not be disturbed at the base nature of porn has got to be seriously bereft of any and all morals.

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/7/Porn-star-Chasey-Lain-meltdown-Part-2-545657.html

Yuck. Just... yuck.

What's your point? That some people are bad employees? What does that have to do with the industry at large?

 

[Zax63]

If you think some type of legal fiction will protect you then there is no prostitution anyway. Fees are donations, or for introductions or companionship only. If you happen to like each other so much that you are having sex 2 minutes after you meet then that's just a lucky coincidence.

[Agency name] is dedicated to bringing men and women together whose lifestyles do not allow them the opportunities to meet quality people in conventional ways. Our sole purpose is to bring two worlds together that would otherwise never meet.
The women that are registered with our service are both professional and aspiring models, actresses, and college students. The women on our site are only seeking to meet affluent gentlemen interested in casual dating for a mutually beneficial relationship. If you would like to date one of our companions, you will be required to pay the hourly membership fee that is stated on the site for the companion you choose. This membership fee will entitle you to a complimentary, one-hour introduction, or more if you choose. [Agency name] understands that, at times, photos can be misleading or the chemistry just isn't there so you will not be required to pay your membership fee until you meet your date face to face. If upon arrival, she does not meet your expectations, you are in no way obligated to pay the membership fee and do not need to stay. However, if she does meet your standards and you wish to continue the date, you will be required to give her the membership fee before your date can continue. All other introductions will cost the same, per meeting.

 

[fagin]

Beats me.

Legal as long as no money involved

 

[ponderingturtle]

The prostitution itself is illegal, but unless you're stupid enough to film money being exchanged impossible to prove.

But the filming is perfectly legal, assuming all parties consented to it.

There is porn out there, that explicitly shows the payment going to the models. They supposedly go up to women on the street and offer them money to see their tits and then work their way up by offering more money for more acts.


Not sure how much of negotiation and finding the women if real, but with out the camera it would be prostitution.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Beats me.

That is a different issue, of course profeshional dominatrixes are legal. Provided they only beat you, they can't have sex with you after.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Don't you think that is mostly due to the fact they have to hide in the shadowy underworld to begin with?

Seems like brothels with bouncers would solve most of those problems.

Some sure, and of course if you look at places that have no entrance requirements to work, you will likely find correlations with them and unseemly activity.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Legal as long as no money involved

MOney can be involved, you just can have money involved or sex involved or you have to film it.

 

[I Ratant]

Why would that be presumed about pornography but not prostitution?

.
No obvious beatings or death threats to get the participants to function.

 

[I Ratant]

Don't you think that is mostly due to the fact they have to hide in the shadowy underworld to begin with?

Seems like brothels with bouncers would solve most of those problems.

.
Yes it does, when the community is openminded enough to see the potential for taxing a popular business, instead of wasting money prosecuting a popular demand.

 

[I Ratant]

That's a slippery slope argument.

We already have laws against abusing girls, murder, illegal drug use and distribution, etc.

.
And film makers don't do much of that when making a porno.
Or if they do, the word gets around and they can't get actors.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that drugs are involved in some porn, as payment for the work.
Much of the money being paid goes up the nose anyway.
In whoring, the girl gets the short end, with the pimp doling out a minor amount of her day's take to her, and possibly a hit or two.. drug or fist.

 

[Ziggurat]

So "community standards" seems to me to be what we profess rather than what we actually do.

Sure.

The "self-selected minority" argument fails utterly. No one on the Illinois side is forced to go into a strip club. The clientele is entirely a self-selected minority.

That doesn't matter. The majority in Illinois apparently don't mind, which is why they haven't made it illegal. The majority in Missouri apparently do mind, which is why they have made it illegal. It's whether or not they mind that matters, not whether or not they engage in it themselves. Curling, for example, meets the community standards of every community I've ever been to, but not many people want to actually do it.

So it's a self-selected minority regardless of the community standards. So if "community standards" doesn't suggest some sort of hypocritical unanimity, I'm not sure what it means.

It means whatever the majority wants it to mean. I don't think it's a good standard, but until recently (ie, the internet), its application was pretty straight forward.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

That doesn't matter.

I matters for the argument that the clientele is a self-selected minority. As I've pointed out, that's true anywhere.

The majority in Illinois apparently don't mind, which is why they haven't made it illegal. The majority in Missouri apparently do mind, which is why they have made it illegal. It's whether or not they mind that matters, not whether or not they engage in it themselves.

So community standard is just another term for majority rule? If that's so, then the courts should just kick it back to the legislature and not make their own determinations on these issues.

And, there is a principle in place that the majority cannot vote away anyone's First Amendment rights.

It means whatever the majority wants it to mean. I don't think it's a good standard, but until recently (ie, the internet), its application was pretty straight forward.

I disagree. The majority religion is not allowed to vote in a state religion.

And the application of community standards for this particular issue has long been contentious here. (Same with the laws on gambling.)