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The Death of Vince Foster - What Really Happened? (1995)

When all else fails, try ridicule.

But don't think people aren't noticing your failure and dishonesty, ANTPogo.

:D
 
By the way, BAC: Aren't you the least little bit inclined to perhaps rethink your conspiracy theories, when apparently the only two people who find your "evidence" at all convincing, on a skeptic's forum, are a hardcore 9/11 Truther who thinks he's Galileo Galilei reincarnated, and a guy who thinks the driver of JFK's limo was really the one that fired the fatal headshot in Dallas that day in November '63?
 
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Aren't you the least little bit inclined to perhaps rethink your conspiracy theories, when apparently the only two people who find your "evidence" at all convincing, on a skeptic's forum,

LOL!

How does that in any way affect the facts I've noted?

Does that make the oven mitt *evidence* that facts clearly show was a fabrication introduced by Starr to try and explain the lack of fingerprints on the gun go away? An oven mitt you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the sworn testimony of the first person to find Foster's body that there was no gun and his hands were in a different position than in the "official" police photos? Testimony that you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that the only doctor to see Foster's body at the crime scene and almost all of the emergency responders say there was an exit wound in Foster's neck, not in the back of his head? Testimony that you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that Starr's top investigator is on record saying that an analysis of the one photo of Foster's head that he got access to showed a neck wound? A fact you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that the only witnesses to claim that Foster was severely depressed all changed their stories to that claim, from originally claiming they saw absolutely no sign of depression, after a meeting, a full week after the death, that those individuals attended in the Whitehouse? Facts that you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that the handwritten interview form shows that Lisa Foster said her husband was "fighting prescription" (other testimony indicates he was afraid of becoming addicted to regular sleeping pills) but the typewritten version of that form in the Starr report quotes her saying he was "fighting depression"? A fact you avoid discussing. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that multiple documents and witness statements prove the medical examiner, Dr Beyer, lied when he said the x-ray machine wasn't working to explain the lack of x-rays of Foster's head? Facts you simply won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that Starr's own top investigator is on record saying the government investigation was a coverup? A fact you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

Does that change the fact that all the handwriting experts that have examined the so-called suicide note (including the one who originally stated it was authentic) have now said it's not authentic? A fact you won't discuss. The implications of which you won't discuss.

And I could go on.

So did you ever consider another possibility, ANTPogo? That the Foster case is a litmus test for whether, at least when it comes to events that impinge on political opinion, there are skeptics at JREF? Maybe when it comes to politics, this forum is just misnamed. :D
 
A litmus test ... that you failed, ANTPogo. :D

Yes, I failed the "test" that a 9/11 Truther who thinks he's Galileo and a Kennedy conspiracy nut who thinks JFK was capped by his own limo driver passed.

Strangely, I don't have a problem with that.
 
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can we not ride your pet hobby horse everywhere?

Rika, you would be one of those I'm talking about. Someone unwilling to actually discuss the facts in the Foster case but willing to just "believe" what someone like Aaronovitch claims without citing ANY evidence about the case. In other words, you don't quite fit the definition of a skeptic. And since this thread is about Aaronovitch's book, and it's on a skeptics forum, it seems to me that any post that deals with the accuracy of the contents of the book or expressed opinions of Aaronovitch on the book's theme would seem fair game. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read this thread ... much less post on it. :D
 
BaC: Read the book. I don't have it on me (won't until my roommate finds the books he checked out on my card and I can return them) so I can't post his evidence. And frankly, I don't care to, since I don't judge books on litmus tests.

Well, since you folks insisted, I dropped by the library and located a copy of the Aaronovitch book. It's copyright is 2010, so it is hot off the press. And, sadly, I must question the skepticism of many JREF posters who recommended the book and even made claims like it "shreds" the Vince Foster conspiracy.

Aaronovitch does discuss the Vince Foster death, on pages 321 - 324 and pages 327 - 328. However, not one of the facts I listed as concerns earlier are mentioned. Instead, Aaronovitch does same the dance that all Foster debunkers I've met do … make absolutely misleading and sometimes downright false claims, and do a lot of non-evidence based handwaving. In other words, act like a 9/11 Truther.

Here in a nutshell is Aaronovitch's logic regarding the Foster case. Since the police, FBI, two "separate" investigations by two "independent" prosecutors ("both republicans", he notes) and a "republican chaired" Senate Oversight committee all concluded it was a suicide … because Foster was depressed … so it must have been one.

Now the first part of that statement is true. All those groups did indeed label it a suicide, but the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from that. Because afterall, this is a conspiracy. Members of the police, the FBI, and both so-called "separate" and "independent" prosecuters are all implicated by the list of facts that I noted earlier (some of which I will discuss further below). And the Senate Oversight Committee did little more than listen to what they were told by these same groups. For the most part, they heard no evidence from anyone outside who was challenging the claim of suicide. Plus, they had political motivations of their own for not stirring the pot. So it isn't all that surprising that they would parrot the same conclusions as the others did.

Now what follows is a description of just some of the facts that Aaronovitch completely ignores in his book. As I've demonstrated on other Vince Foster threads, I can support every claim of fact I'm about to list. I've taken care in each case to note anything that Aaronovitch said regarding a particular topic, and indeed quoted the full extend of his fact-based arguments in the book. Everything else Aaronovitch says in those few pages on Foster … his clear expressions of distaste for certain named conspiracists who covered the story, his mention and then handwaving away of some of the concerns that were raised about the Foster case, his attempts to link the Foster case to other far less credible allegations of murder (the Clinton Body Count), his ridicule of the notion of "conspiracy" in general, the connections he notes of some of the media outlets that carried the story to people who he considers "right-wing" … is simply irrelevant because none those arguments address the actual facts of the case. The following facts (which all are verifiable) stand on their own, point to their own conclusion, and it's these facts that Aaronovitch should have focused on if he really wanted to address the validity of allegations of foul play. He didn't do that because he couldn't. Because the facts point to a clear coverup by the very organizations that Aaronovitch says he trusts implicitly.

(1) Starr's report states "Foster had called a family doctor for antidepressant medication the day before his death." Aaronovitch just accepts the claim that Foster was severely depressed. But he cites very little evidence to support the claim other than to write that Foster "confided that he was depressed" to his sister, Sheila Anthony, and that he was "sent antidepressants by his own physician in Little Rock, but had not taken them". I'll deal with those two claims in a moment (and Starr's), but first, let's look at what the people close to Foster said at the time about his mental state.

What Starr's report and Aaronovitch don't mention is that Park Police and FBI agents stated in their notes and under oath (when questioned later by the Senate) that when Lisa Foster (Vince's wife), his friends and his relatives were questioned the night of Foster's murder, ALL said that Vince showed absolutely no sign of depression. The investigators point blank asked them the question "did you see any sign of depression" and got back nothing but negative answers. That's what their interview notes specifically state. Not one of those interviewed claimed or even implied that Foster was depressed or seem troubled. In fact, the three *key* witnesses who Fiske/Starr later used to claim Vince was depressed -- specifically Lisa Foster, Sheila Anthony and Beryl Anthony (Sheila's husband, a former Democrat Congressman from Arkansas and a former President of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee) -- emphatically denied, that night and in the days that followed, that Vince had been depressed. For example, in an interview on July 22 (2 days after the death), when asked if Foster had been depressed during the two weeks prior to death, Beryl is quoted saying: "There is not a damn thing to it. That's a bunch of crap."

And many other people in Foster's circle of friends and associates were interviewed or made statements in the following days regarding his mental state. This includes President Clinton (who had a 20-25 minute phone conversation with Foster the night before he died), Marsha Scott (aide to the President, who had a long meeting with Foster the day before he died), David Watkins (Assistant to the President for Management and Administration, who saw Foster every day), Betsy Pond (White House Counsel Nussbaum's secretary), Nancy Hernreich (Deputy Assistant to the President), Beth Nolan (Associate White House Counsel), Bernard Nussbaum (White House Counsel), and Web Hubble . Every single one of them said they saw nothing to make them think he was depressed. For example, three secretaries in the White House Office of Legal Counsel were interviewed by the Park Police two days after the death (according to Park Police notes). Here is what the notes recorded: "There was nothing unusual about his emotional state. In fact, over the last several weeks she did not notice any changes, either physically or emotionally. She noticed no weight loss." "Mr. Foster's demeanor seemed normal to her." "She stated that she did not note any unusual behavior by Mr. Foster on [the day he died]". That last was Foster's personal secretary. One would think she'd have notice major depression. In an interview with Federal agents in 1994, Web Hubbell recalled vacationing with Foster on the last weekend of his life. The agents wrote: ''Hubbell said that he was not aware that Foster was experiencing any type of stress." "Hubbell answered no to all questions concerning any noticeable changes in Foster's appearance, physical ailments, headaches, loss of appetite or any kind of stomach trouble.'' And Starr mentioned none of these witness statements in his report.

In fact, the claims of depression only surfaced over a week after the death, following a closed door meeting in the Whitehouse that both Lisa and Vince's sister, who worked in the top echelon of the Clinton Administration, attended. This is a meeting that Starr showed no interest in investigating despite the fact that then, suddenly, Lisa, Sheila and Sheila's husband all changed their stories 180 degrees. Suddenly they knew Foster had been depressed. You don't have to be very bright to put two and two together here. Fiske and Starr completely ignored these facts ... because they were clearly intent on building a case that Foster was depressed. They were inconvenient facts so they were left out of the "official" story. Aaronovitch also never mentions these facts, some of which clearly suggest witness tampering, either because he simply isn't competent or because he's a tool being used to keep the Foster allegations from resurfacing. It's one or the other.

(2) Now I mentioned above that Starr said "Foster had called a family doctor for antidepressant medication the day before his death" and that Aaronovitch claims Foster was "sent antidepressants by his own physician in Little Rock, but had not taken them". Both statements are deceptive and not even accurate. Here's the whole story … the story that Aaronovitch either missed or deliberately ignored. The proof that Starr lied.

The handwritten notes of the investigators from the night of Foster's death state that Lisa Foster told the investigators "he was fighting prescription". Yet that phrase ended up being reported as "he was fighting depression" in the typed FD-302 interview report included in the final Starr report. This is clear evidence of tampering by the FBI and Fiske/Starr, and Aaronovitch completely ignores it. And this is no small matter since the entire official scenario rests on making people believe that Foster was depressed enough to kill himself.

And what did Lisa Foster mean by "fighting prescription"? Well this is what FBI agents wrote in their interview notes the night of Foster's death: "FOSTER complained to LISA FOSTER that he was suffering from insomnia, but he did not want to take sleeping pills because he was afraid that he would become addicted to them." That Foster was worried about becoming addicted to sleeping pills was reported in various mainstream media including Time and the Washington Post. Furthermore, the FBI notes show that Vince's doctor, Dr Watkins, told them that Foster complained of "insomnia" and he gave Foster a drug to help him "start sleeping better." So Starr lied in his report when he stated that "Foster had called a family doctor for antidepressant medication." He did not do that. He called about insomnia and it was the doctor's decision to prescribe whatever medication was prescribed. Because Foster was concerned about becoming addicted to the sleeping pills he'd previously been prescribed for insomnia, the doctor prescribed a non-addictive drug that was commonly used for insomnia at the specific dosage the doctor prescribed. It just happens to be an anti-depressant, but the literature clearly states that when its purpose is to fight depression, that medicine should be prescribed at a much higher dosage than Foster received. The facts clearly show that it was prescribed to fight insomnia but avoid addiction, not to "fight depression."

Furthermore, Starr and company claimed over and over that Foster had "clinical" depression. Yet the FBI notes of the interview with Dr Watkins states "He did not think that Foster was significantly depressed nor had Foster given the impression that he was 'in crisis.'" He told them "Foster's condition sounded mild and situational." Mild depression is not "clinical" depression, the word that Fiske and Starr used repeatedly in their reports. Clinical depression refers to major depression. Aaronovitch couldn't possibly be unaware of all this if he'd spent even a modicum of time reviewing the facts in this case. So again, we are either left with the conclusion that Aaronovitch is incompetent or he was deliberately ignoring and distorting the facts in his book.

Plus, the night of the death, when asked by the Park Police and FBI if her husband had been taking any medication, specifically any anti-depressant medication, Lisa emphatically said "NO". In fact, she didn't mention the word depression until 9 days later ... in a session with Park Police in her attorney's office that occurred two days after the meeting that she and her attorney attended in the Whitehouse. She then told Park Police that Foster had taken Trazodone [Desyrel] the night before he died. When asked how she knew this, the investigator's notes say "LF [Lisa Foster] told VF [Vince Foster] to take one and she also saw him take it." (Which, by the way, completely contradicts Aaronovitch's claim that he didn't take the medication the doctor prescribed.) In his deposition, the officer who conducted the interview said "You know, we didn't have to question her a whole lot." He said the widow gave more of a verbal statement than an interview. He thought "she had gone over it with her lawyer so many times she had it down pat. ... I don't think we ever asked her a direct question." Again, you don't have to be a genius to connect the dots and see what was going on here. Aaronovitch is either a terribly incompetent investigator or a tool of those trying stop any further examination of Foster's death.

(3) Now let's look at Aaronvitches claim that in Foster's "wallet were the names and numbers of three psychiatrists given to him by his sister, in whom he had confided he was depressed." That sounds convincing, right? But what isn't Aaronovitch telling you?

Well first of all, if Sheila had this concern about her brother, then why, when she was specifically asked by investigators the night of his death about depression, did she not tell them? She only voiced this claim for the first time a week later, after the meeting in the Whitehouse. Then she claimed that she spoke with Dr Hedaya (one of the psychiatrists) four days before Foster's death. According to the FBI, Dr Hedaya told them that on July 16th she called and said Foster was working on "Top Secret" matters at the White House and "that his depression was directly related to highly sensitive and confidential matters". But Park Police lead investigator, John Rolla, filed a report in which he said he called each of the 3 psychiatrists names, and Dr Hedaya made no mention of Sheila's call. You’d think Dr Hedaya would have responded to the inquiring policeman, “No, Mr. Foster didn’t call me, but his sister did and she mentioned he was depressed.”

Also odd is that the Starr report says Foster's wallet was found in his car (why Foster would have left it in the car and not had it in his possession when his body was found is not explained). But in any case, that means the note would have been in found in the car. But the first indication in the press that there was a note was seven days after Foster's death (after that Whitehouse meeting) when NBC news reported that a document had been found in Foster's office that indicated that he was depressed and had been seeking medical treatment. Douglas Jehl in the New York Times reported the same thing. Michael Isikoff of the Washington Post reported the next day that "White House official searching the office of Vincent Foster, Jr. last week found a note indicating the 48 year-old deputy White House counsel may have considered psychiatric help shortly before he died". It was not till two days later that a Washington Post article finally said a note was found in Foster's automobile at Fort Marcy Park.

The Washington Post article, however, also said the note contained the name of two psychiatrists (not three), and they listed the two names. Neither name was Dr. Hedaya's. Isn't it curious that they'd leave out the name of the one person who actually does admits talking to Sheila. And here's another curious fact. During the Senate Banking Committee's investigation, a photocopy of the note with the list of psychiatrists was filed as evidence. And the first name on the list is Dr. Robert Hedaya, but it's written in block letters, while the other two names are written in cursive. Odd. Also odd is that the note with the list of names was not on the official list of items found in Foster's car that was compiled by police immediately after Foster's death.

So given all the above facts … none of which Aaronovitch felt necessary to mention, is it beyond the realm of possibility that this conversation between Sheila and Dr Hedaya never actually occurred and this list is another fabrication added after the fact to explain Foster's death? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Sheila, the psychiatrist, and even Rolla were pressured in some way to make up and support this claim? That seems to be the only way to fit all of these facts together in a logical manner.

(4) Then there's the matter of the oven mitt. Aaronovitch writes "In his car an oven mitt was discovered, which forensics established had carried the revolver." Starr claimed in his final report that the reason the gun did not have Foster's fingerprints on it is that it was carried to Fort Marcy Park inside this oven mitt that Starr claimed was found in the glove compartment of Foster's car. Sounds pretty convincing right?

Now, never mind that Foster would likely have gotten fingerprints on the gun carrying it from the car to the location where he supposedly shot himself. The real problem here is that Starr provides as proof of this oven mitt, a photo which shows a big green oven mitt occupying most of the space in the glove compartment of Foster's car. And in that photo, the floor of the car below the glove compartment is absolutely clean ... sans any debris. But other photos from that day show there was debris on the floor. According to Park Police records, Detective Braun emptied the glove box of all items PRIOR to detective Smith removing the debris from the passenger seat floor. Records show Braun emptying the glove box at 6:35 AM July 21st. Detective Smith's paperwork indicates he cleaned off the passenger side floor after noon on July 21st. Furthermore, Detective Braun's inventory of the glove compartment as items were removed did NOT record an oven mitt ... something that would be very hard to miss and unusual enough to have surely been listed. Thus, a photograph showing the glove compartment with items in it over a clean passenger floor flatly contradicts the Park Police records. Such a photo (a photo which was never mentioned by Fiske in his report, by the way) can only have been staged … by Starr to explain away an inconvenient detail … the lack of fingerprints on the supposed suicide weapon. Again, this clearly indicates tampering but again Aaronovitch ignores all this, blindly accepting whatever the Starr report claimed. Aaronovitch is at best a hack.

(5) Starr's report claimed there was an inch diameter hole in the back of Foster's head. Aaronovitch makes note of this when he writes "The autopsy revealed a wound from his mouth to an exit point in his head." But that claim is on quicksand, too. Because not one of the eyewitnesses to the body said they saw that wound, except the pathologist who described it in his autopsy (and I'll discuss him, shortly). In fact, many of the eyewitnesses instead said they saw an exit wound in Foster's neck, which the autopsy and Starr reports specifically ruled out, saying (as Aaronovitch notes) "there were no other marks on the body". One of those many eyewitnesses was Dr Donald Haut, the only doctor to see Foster's body at the scene, and he described the wound as "mouth-to-neck". Curiously enough, Dr. Haut’s report was not included in the documents released by the government on the Foster case. It was discovered in June 1997 at the National Archives by Patrick Knowlton, a eyewitness in the case who published a report on inconsistencies in the government version that the court ordered be attached to the Starr report when it was released (which Starr did not do, by the way).

A second doctor, Julian Orenstein of the FairFax County Morgue, who examined Foster's body before it reached the pathologist who did the autopsy, also said he saw no head wound. In his FBI statement it says he lifted the body in order "to locate and observe the exit wound on the decedent's head." Notice that it doesn't actually say he saw the exit wound ... but you might think he did reading that. But he didn't. Contacted later, he admitted "I never saw one directly." And a copy of the handwritten notes of the FBI interviews, which were obtained via a FOIA lawsuit against the Office of the Independent Counsel does not even mention Orenstein trying to locate an exit wound. Apparently, that was added to his statement after the fact. Again, more tampering with the evidence by the IOC to bolster this fiction they concocted.

Four of the rescue workers testified under oath in secret before the Whitewater grand jury that they saw trauma to the side of Foster’s head or neck … information that was submitted to Starr in a memorandum from his top investigator, Miquel Rodriguez, summing up the proceedings of the Whitewater grand jury. But again, Starr never mentioned any this in his official report.

And one more fact. The photos of Foster's body were very tightly controlled, with the government fighting every single attempt to get them released, even internally within the investigation. (In fact, they've never stopped fighting efforts to get them released. As a result, photos of the head have never been seen by the public.) Even Miquel Rodriguez, Starr's lead investigator, was blocked from access to them. One of the surviving polaroid photos (yes, photos did disappear) apparently shows Foster's head (or at least his neck). According to Rodriguez, when he finally did get hold of the original of this polaroid, he had the Smithsonian institution blow it up. He says the blowups show a dime-sized wound on the right side of Foster’s neck about half way between the chin and the ear. A wound consistent with the report by Dr. Donald Haut, the only doctor to visit the crime scene, as well as a half dozen other eye witnesses. A wound never mentioned by Fiske or Starr in their reports or in the autopsy report. A wound that Aaronovitch only mentions in passing "Some people who saw the body didn't see the gun, or thought they saw a wound in the neck", and then simply dismisses. Isn't it clear by now that someone is lying? Isn't it clear that Aaronovitch is either incompetent or possibly aiding a coverup?

(6) Dr. James C. Beyer is the pathologist who claimed there was a inch diameter hole in the back of Foster's head and no other wounds. On January 20, 1994, in an interview six months after Foster's death, Dr Beyer said that an FBI agent, a Secret Service and Park Police were present when he conducted his autopsy. Yet later, the Park Police admitted that only their officers were present and the FBI admitted none of theirs were present. But the really funny thing here is that the Starr report claims there are no x-rays of Foster's head. Yet, the Supplemental Criminal Incident Record of the U.S. Park Police states "Dr. Beyer stated that X-rays indicated there was no evidence of bullet fragments in the head." That would certainly suggest x-rays were taken. Indeed, the X-ray box on the autopsy report filled out by Dr Beyer himself was checked "yes," indicating x-rays were taken. But, curiously, in testimony before the Senate Banking Committee, Dr. Beyer said that he had been planning to take X-rays but never did. He claimed the equipment was broken and had been for weeks. However, the Knowlton appendix to the official report on the Foster death contains maintenance records that indicate the X-Ray machine was, in fact, fully operable at the time the Foster autopsy was conducted. The first call to service his brand new machine was made over three months AFTER Foster’s death. In short, Dr Beyer lied. And by the way, Starr’s investigators, and presumably Starr himself, knew that the claim that the x-ray machine was not working was false because the record of that first service call on Oct. 29 was included among the documents AIM obtained from the OIC. So you still think Aaronovitch is justified in simply trusting the IOC's conclusions?

(7) Then there is the so-called "suicide note" that was discovered in Foster's briefcase. Aaronovitch in his book briefly mentions this torn up note, writing that it "indicated that he [Foster] was struggling in his job, felt he had made mistakes, and thought he was being pursued by newspaper reporters concerned only with creating scandal and destroying people, not with telling the truth." That all fits in nicely with the suicide angle, doesn't it? But here again, Aaronovitch leaves out the really interesting parts of the story. Like ...

- the fact that Foster's briefcase was searched the night of the death (turned upside down, in fact, according to the testimony of Bernard Nussbaum) and was no note was found. The brief case was empty. Do you know that during Senate hearings in 1995, Senator Frank Murkowski tore up a note into twenty-eight pieces and placed it in the bottom of a briefcase that had been lent to him by the IOC's office as a match for Fosters? He then turned it over and the notes fell out. It is implausible that Nussbaum overlooked the note when he emptied the briefcase in the same manner in front of Park Police the night of Foster's death.

- the fact the note was only *discovered* days later. Then, as Philip Heymann of the Whitehouse testified, "a number of pieces of the note fell down on the floor and there was a scramble to pick them up." He went on to add that "by the time it had been reassembled, the fingerprints of everybody in the Whitehouse were on it." So why does Starr's report claimed there were no fingerprints on the note? Were all the people at the Whitehouse wearing gloves?

- the fact that the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee concluded that Hillary was one of the first persons to see the alleged note and that it was her instructions that Bill Clinton NOT be informed of its existence and that the note NOT be turned over to law enforcement. And it wasn't, until about 28 hours later (4 hours after Bill learned about the note anyway). And note that a number of Clinton staffers swore under oath that the first lady had no role whatsoever in the handling of Foster's note. Yet a memo was discovered, written by White House lawyer Miriam Nemetz, who quotes then-White House chief of staff Mack McLarty saying Mrs. Clinton "was very upset and believed the matter required further thought and the president should not yet be told".

- the fact that the government refused to release photocopies of the reconstructed note and fought efforts by The Wall Street Journal to obtain a copy under the Freedom of Information Act. Eventually, however, a copy was leaked to the WSJ who published it. Then, three noted and independent handwriting experts looked at the published note. All were board certified and all three declared the note an obvious forgery.

- the fact that the IOC had declared the note authentic, based on the opinion of Sergeant Larry Lockhart, the U.S. Capitol Police handwriting expert. But Reed Irvine (of AIM) later met with Sergeant Lockhart and gave him in a blind authentication test run in the same way the other three handwriting experts had investigated the matter … i.e., comparing enlargements of words from the note to enlarged words from known samples of Foster handwriting. This was done without Lockhart knowing that he was reexaming the Foster case. And Lockhart concluded that "very possibly" and "probably" the words were not written by the person who wrote the samples. In other words, he unknowingly reversed the opinion he gave the Park Police. When he was told that, he acknowledged that he had not used any enlargements for his 1993 analysis.

Shouldn't Aaronovitch have shown some interest in an apparently forged note that was found by Clinton staff in Vince Foster's briefcase? But he doesn't.

(8) Then there is Dr Alan Berman … the psychological *expert* that Starr called on to bless his suicide theory … the one who wrote in a 21 page report that to "a 100% degree of medical certainty the death of Vince Foster was a suicide." So let's look at how Berman came to that astounding conclusion. This is the ghist of it: "No plausible evidence has been presented to support any other conclusion." Tell me folks, knowing all we already have learned about the case so far, is that a believable statement?

The fact is that Berman only worked with the evidence provided by Starr. Interviews with Berman long after the event (http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-dr-alan-bermans-loud-silence/) show that Starr told him only selected (and often false) facts, and left out most of what I've noted so far. Furthermore, Berman's methodology itself is highly suspect. Here's what another expert in suicide thought of Berman's conclusion in the Foster case (http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-critiquing-bermans-report-on-foster/ "Dr. Berman fell victim to the petitio principii fallacy [begging the question] in that he assumed suicide and then fit all of his state-of-the-mind conclusions into this assumption. … snip … Dr. Berman did not discuss the many protective factors in Mr. Foster's life. By not accounting for these matters he overstated the possibility of suicide."

And you want a further example of Dr Berman's dishonesty or incompetence? His book "Comprehensive TextBook of Suicidology", published in 2000, has a brief mention of Foster (much like Aaronovitch's). In it he claims that the so-called suicide note was a list of complaints that Lisa Foster asked him to write out about a week before his death. He too completely ignores all the expert statements that the note was a forgery. And I can find no statement by anyone else that Lisa prompted Foster to write this list. He made this up. He also claims Foster was prescribed an antidepressant and "took one 50 mg pill (only a third the recommended dosage) that night and went to bed." But as already noted, the doctor said the prescription was for insomnia and 50-150 mg, starting with 50 mg, is indeed the recommended dose for treating that complaint. In fact, the pharmacist who filled Foster's order said the instructions were to take between "1-3 pills at bedtime". When trazondone is prescribed for depression, it's in "divided doses", not just at bedtime, and it is prescribed in dosages where the starting amount is 150 mg per day ramping up to as much as 400 mgs over 3 or 4 day.

And I could go on and on lists facts that Aaronovitch either misrepresents or completely ignores in his so-called *expert* treatment of the Foster case. I'll leave you with just one more.

(9) Aaronovitch writes "photographs shot at the scene showed the gun under his hand, with the thumb trapped by the trigger." There's a good story here, too, one that Aaronovitch apparently doesn't want his readers to hear. It's very long so I'll tell you only the best parts that pertain to the position of the gun. Although think about the fact that the IOC claimed were no fingerprints on the gun. The gun was in his hand, and there were no fingerprints on the gun. Explanation? The FBI said they "probably" … get this, "melted off in the heat."

Starr's report report claims "the descriptions provided by the first two persons to observe the gun, as well as numerous others, are consistent with the gun retrieved from the scene." But this is not true. Firefighter Todd Hall was one of the first two people to observe a gun and he's on record stating that he couldn't tell what kind of gun it was, nor could he say whether a hand was gripping the gun. Paramedic George Gonzalez is the other of the "first two persons to observe the gun". He testified in the summer of 1994 that the position of the gun he saw at the park, before Sergeant Edwards had been alone with the body, was different than the position of the gun as it was photographed in Mr. Foster's hand at the park. He also stated he didn't know the size of the gun nor the type of gun. Yet the IOC claimed that their "description … [is] consistent with the gun retrieved from the scene." In other words, the IOC relies on these two witnesses to claim that the description of witnesses matched the gun retrieved at the scene, when in fact neither witness actually said that.

Park Police Office Franz Ferstl photographed the body on site with a polaroid camera. (Note that all of his pictures curiously disappeared.) The FBI report claimed that during an interview in May 1994 he said he saw a gun in the right hand. That's curious given that the Incident Report that Ferstl himself filed after photographing the body did not mention seeing any gun. Then there is paramedic Richard Arthur, who wasn't interviewed by the FBI in the immediate aftermath of the death, even though he was only 2 to 3 feet from Foster's body. He was interviewed four times over the next couple years however. He not only testified that he saw a neck wound (contrary to the official version), he described the gun as being a .45 automatic. In interview after interview he stated his conviction that the gun had the shape of an automatic, not a revolver. He even went so far as to draw the shape of the gun he saw. It didn't match the gun the government claimed was the suicide weapon.

But most damning of all is the testimony of the Confidential Witness, identified as "CW" in his FBI interviews and deposition. He's the one who first found Foster's body. According to his testimony, he approached the body to within 18 inches of Foster's head and says he looked very carefully. He is absolutely adamant that Foster did NOT have a gun in either hand and, moreover, that the position of the hands/arms was different than that reported in the IOC report and shown in the photo published by the IOC. He testified under oath before US Congressmen, that when he found Foster, both hands were palm up with the thumbs pointed out away from the body. Both claims are inconsistent with the photos released by Fiske and Starr ... photos whose legitimacy was even questioned by Starr's own top investigator after he quit in disgust. And the IOC report completely ignores this testimony. So does Aaronovitch. Now how could Aaronovitch not have heard of this witness? Isn't it interesting that Aaronovitch, the *great conspiracy debunker* showed no interest whatsoever in any of the above details regarding this case? And there is no possible way he could have investigated the Foster matter without discovering them.

So let's summarize. Aaronovitch has clearly missed the boat in his description and debunking the Foster allegation. Whether it is through sheer incompetence or a deliberate attempt on his part to further silence allegations of foul play in this case, I'd have to judge his book is probably not worth the paper it's printed on. So no, I won't bother reading whatever else he had to say about all the other conspiracies he highlighted. In his reporting of the Foster case, he discredited himself. And I would hope that those who post at JREF can take what's noted here and be equally skeptical. Call it a litmus test for JREF poster skepticism. :D
 
so would you say that Aaronovitch is a shill for the "official story"?

I think I very clearly stated what I thought. Why do you need clarification?

Do you wish to try and defend Aaronovitch as a legitimate conspiracy debunker? :rolleyes:
 
I only made it through the first three.

It's interesting that a professional athlete, a member of the Denver Broncos, recently commited suicide because of depression. He was at practice the day before and no one knew anything was wrong.

If, at any point, you evince "people around him didn't notice he was depressed," your position is destined for ridicule.

In general, it seems that almost all of your points---I scanned a few more---rely on eyewitnesses. I immediately ignore any conspiracy theory that relies on the observational skills of humans.
 
it seems that almost all of your points---I scanned a few more---rely on eyewitnesses. I immediately ignore any conspiracy theory that relies on the observational skills of humans.

So you will accept the assertion that Foster was clinically depressed (which is essential to the *official* scenario) based SOLELY on the claims made by 3 key witnesses (because there is NO physical evidence whatsoever to indicate Foster was clinically depressed), all of whom initially said Foster was not depressed and who only changed their story a week later, after a meeting in the Whitehouse? And you'll believe those three, but not the other dozen eyewitnesses who all said he was not depressed (or showing any signs of emotional problems for that matter) and are not on record having changed their stories at all? Do I have that right, TW? Is that the way your *logical* *skeptical* brain works? :rolleyes:

And, by the way, you are simply wrong in claiming that "almost all my points rely on eyewitnesses". In fact, every one of my points relies first on the cold, hard, unassailable fact that Fiske and Starr failed to mention any contradicting data in their reports. For example, as noted above, they never mention that their 3 star witnesses had changed their story from what they originally claimed, or that there were many other witnesses who didn't fit their theory at all. That's prima facie evidence of a coverup that is not subject to observational error. Perhaps interpretation, but not observational error.

Also, facts like the observation that Lisa Foster's statement to the FBI agents was altered in the Starr report is not a matter of human judgment. It's just fact. And again, that's prima facie evidence of a coverup that is not subject to observational error. Perhaps interpretation, but not observational error.

Likewise, my observation that Aaronovitch's claim that Foster did not take any of the medication the doctor gave him contradicts the statement made to the FBI by Lisa Foster is not a matter of observational skill. It's just a fact. Now you can try to claim that Lisa Foster was mistaken when she told the agent she "saw him take it" (in other words, her observational skills weren't very good) but then if she's wrong about something as clear cut as that, why would you turn around and place such faith in her later, revised claim that her husband was depressed? You see, your logic is not consistent here, TK.

In item #3, Sheila's claim seems questionable for various reasons that have nothing to do with observational error, unless you expect us to believe that the Washington Post or whoever they talked to got hold of the note with the list of names and failed to observe that there were 3 names on it, rather than the 2 they reported. They can't even count to three? And how could they miss reporting the very first name in the list … the one that stood out in block letters … the one who just happens to be the only name we've been given by Sheila Foster or Starr as a psychiatrist she actually talked to before his death? And the change in the reporting of the location where the note was found is not a matter of my observational skill at least. It is just a fact. Along with the fact the first time the list was mentioned was over a week after Foster's death. It's just a fact that Sheila said nothing about this the entire time she was telling police and FBI that Foster showed no signs of depression, and only mentioned after a meeting that occurred in the Whitehouse whose purpose and content Starr ignored. It's just a fact that her story then changed. Now if you can't draw the logical conclusion from that, that's your problem, not mine.

Item #4 also does not rely on eyewitness testimony other than police reports noting when various actions took place. But if you wish to claim that police records are not trustworthy, then you are going to throw out 90% of information that is used in courts of law all the time to convict people of crimes. Police, unlike civilians, are trained to be good observers. If they record that they did such and such an action at a specific time, then don't we have to accept that as fact unless you can prove otherwise? And unless you can do that, then very clearly the oven mitt evidence is phony, because the pictures speak for themselves. It's also a fact, not a matter of observational skill, that Starr mentioned this BIG GREEN oven mitt being in the glove compartment, but Fiske did not. It's also a fact that the oven mitt is not on the list of items the police said they found in the glove compartment. And police are trained to be accurate about such things. Their observational skills are better than most of ours. We best hope so given that we allow them to testify all the time about what they saw or heard and put people in jail based on such testimony.

Item #5 is another case where you chose, apparently, to believe one eyewitness, the pathologist who did the autopsy, and disbelieve a dozen others, all quite capable of observing where the wound was located. Your position is inconsistent. And you ignore the the non-observational evidence such as Rodriguez's analysis of the photo, the obvious attempts by Starr to hide the conflicting views (like not releasing the statement of the first and only doctor to see Foster in Marcy Park), and the evidence that Starr altered the statement made to the FBI by the other doctor who saw Foster's body before the pathologist got to it.

Item #6 also has nothing to do with eyewitness observation skills, other than your believing the observational skills of the pathologist while not believing the observational skills of many other professional medical personel. It has to do with the fact that Beyer was caught in a clear lie about the operational status of his x-ray machine, and inconsistencies exist between official documents which indicate x-rays were taken and his later claims that they were not.

Item #7 is only a matter of observational skills in that you believe Nussbaum and the Park Police had such poor observational skills that they could have looked inside and dumped out the contents of Foster's briefcase, and still not noticed it contained a torn up (into over 2 dozen pieces) *suicide* note. And other than your believing the initial observations of the police handwriting expert but not his later observations, nor the observations of 3 other handwriting experts that all said the note was forgery

Item #8 is not a matter of eyewitnesses at all … other than Berman only be told by Starr the stories of eyewitnesses who agreed with the suicide theory and not the stories of anyone whose story doesn't fit that conclusion. Other than he only being told facts which might support suicide, but not any facts that point away from it. But, as you indicated, you were too lazy to really read beyond the first 3 items so you probably didn't know this. The evidence I present showing Berman's dishonesty about the Foster case facts in his book is also not a matter of observational skill by eyewitnesses. His statements clearly disagree with established and easily accessible facts.

Item #9 is, in fact, the only item that mostly rests on the observational skill of eyewitnesses. But of course, here again, it is a fact that Starr only reports on the statements of those eyewitnesses he thinks support his theory. And you chose to believe only those statements. Even though, as I noted, many more witnesses are on record saying things that don't support what Starr claimed as fact about the gun and the bodies position. Including the very first person to find Foster's body. And as I noted, Starr clearly lied when he claimed that "the descriptions provided by the first two persons to observe the gun, as well as numerous others, are consistent with the gun retrieved from the scene. And it is a fact that the first photos taken at the scene by the police all disappeared. Draw your own conclusion from this ... but be careful because the conclusion you draw will say a lot about your skepticism. This is a litmus test. :D
 
So you will accept the assertion that Foster was clinically depressed (which is essential to the *official* scenario) based SOLELY on the claims made by 3 key witnesses (because there is NO physical evidence whatsoever to indicate Foster was clinically depressed), ...

I'm not going to deal with all this, I'm employed, I don't have the time.

What I will point out is that literally everyone of your points began, "This one doesn't rely on eyewitness testimony except for..."

Whatever problems existed with the Starr report are irrelevant to actual facts about the crime. You can point out discrepancies all you want, but that gets you no closer to murder as incompetence is a much better explanation for any error by that farce of a committee than malice and conspiracy.

But I do find this odd, are you suggesting that somehow the Starr report was a cover-up for the Clintons?
 
I'm not going to deal with all this, I'm employed, I don't have the time.

What I will point out is that literally everyone of your points began, "This one doesn't rely on eyewitness testimony except for..."

Whatever problems existed with the Starr report are irrelevant to actual facts about the crime. You can point out discrepancies all you want, but that gets you no closer to murder as incompetence is a much better explanation for any error by that farce of a committee than malice and conspiracy.

But I do find this odd, are you suggesting that somehow the Starr report was a cover-up for the Clintons?

Yeah, I imagine that this is the type of thing Aaronovitch was getting at.

In the non-conspiratorial world we take factors such as common sense into account.

Ostensibly, the Republicans had a far greater motive for finding Clinton guilty of murder than they had for covering it up so presumably the conspiracy theorist has to come up with a reason.

Ostensibly, the CIA are there to protect people like Kennedy from assassination from people such as foreign covert agencies. But in conspiracy land, the CIA has MORE motive and is MORE likely to kill Kennedy and it doesn't matter that the mass of evidence points unequivocally to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it and there being no evidence anyone else was.

Ostensibly, the Bush administration wants to protect Americans in the World Trade Center and al-Qaeda wants to attack it. These are the stated goals of both of them. Yet in the topsy-turvy world of conspiracy land the exact opposite is true.

Essentially, Aaronovitch is merely trying to shift the argument back to where it should be and that is to show the conspiracy theorists have to prove that black is white and white is black. The burden of proof is on them.
 
Whatever problems existed with the Starr report are irrelevant to actual facts about the crime. You can point out discrepancies all you want, but that gets you no closer to murder as incompetence is a much better explanation for any error by that farce of a committee than malice and conspiracy.

This pretty well sums up my problems with BAC's posts. He's certainly shown that there were discrepancies in the official reports. However, the argument that these discrepancies are due to malice is a bit lacking. There's some circumstantial evidence for that, but it seems somewhat sparse. On top of that, I wonder how a murder plot would account for all of these details. I have little doubt that there are some details which the investigative team got right - unsurprisingly BAC doesn't mention anything about that, nor about how all the details, not just these discrepancies, are accounted for in a theory involving murder.

Draw your own conclusion from this ... but be careful because the conclusion you draw will say a lot about your skepticism. This is a litmus test. :D

Just as a side note - statements like this aren't helping your argument at all. Intelligent people can disagree about facts and their interpretation, including whether the facts supporting something are strong enough to say that any intelligent person must take a certain stance on any issue. There are some exceptions, but they usually fall under math and science where numbers can be used as irrefutable proof. This situation is decidedly more hazy, IMO.

Besides which, if you really have such strong evidence on your side, why even bother saying such things? If it's really true, it'll be obvious from your argument, and nothing further will be necessary.
 
Ostensibly, the CIA are there to protect people like Kennedy from assassination from people such as foreign covert agencies. But in conspiracy land, the CIA has MORE motive and is MORE likely to kill Kennedy and it doesn't matter that the mass of evidence points unequivocally to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it and there being no evidence anyone else was.

And what makes this Foster thing doubly bizarre is that Kenneth Starr was monomaniacally focused on destroying Clinton.

I think a lot of people forgot that the whole Lewinsky debacle began during an investigation of "Whitewater." What did the chubby BJ-machine have to do with a decades old land deal in Arkansas that the Clintons lost money on?

Yet Starr, who forced Clinton to answer questions about his sex life under oath in that same Whitewater query, is somehow covering up a murder for him?

It's baffling.
 
And what makes this Foster thing doubly bizarre is that Kenneth Starr was monomaniacally focused on destroying Clinton.

I think a lot of people forgot that the whole Lewinsky debacle began during an investigation of "Whitewater." What did the chubby BJ-machine have to do with a decades old land deal in Arkansas that the Clintons lost money on?

Yet Starr, who forced Clinton to answer questions about his sex life under oath in that same Whitewater query, is somehow covering up a murder for him?

It's baffling.

I fed your response into my Conspiro-Matic machine and was given a choice of:

a) That's exactly what they wanted you to think and that's how they got away with it.

b) So the plot goes even deeper than we first thought.
 
I have not read the edition of Aaronovitch's book that deals with Vince Foster and I don't know very much about the case, but the point of the book is not to comprehensively debunk every theory that is mentioned.

Well that's nice spin, but I fail to see how that in any way excuses the absolutely shoddy and frankly dishonest way Aaronovitch dealt with the Foster case? His treatment is not what one should expect from someone claiming to bring the light of truth to any issue. Given that, I can only be left with doubts about everything else he might claim as fact in his book. I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong about some of the other CTs, but I do now have good reason to doubt that and therefore will not bother reading the book. Afterall, my time is just as valuable as TW's.

I also think YOU might have good cause to wonder what facts he's left out or misrepresented, especially in any case where he's defending the Clinton administration, because his spurious dismissal of the Foster allegations might be indicative of a general hidden positive bias towards the Clintons or democrats. And sure enough, elsewhere in the book, he spends quite a bit of time defending the Clintons against various allegations using similarly dishonest methods.

For example, he briefly mentions the Ron Brown allegation on pages 320-321. Here again, he tries to link it to the admittedly far less credible "Clinton Body Count", and says it was "rumored" that Brown was "about to reveal something unknown about Clinton." Well for the record, I know as much about the Ron Brown case as I do about the Foster Case … in other words, a lot. And I know that in that case there are again many quite valid reasons to suspect Brown was murdered and that the Clinton adminstration, at the very least, helped cover it up.

I know that there were far more than "unknown" reasons to suspect members of the Clinton administration might have wanted Brown dead. Afterall, Brown was demonstrably at the very heart of the then ongoing Chinagate and CampaignFinancegate scandals, and according to sworn testimony was threatening to turn state's evidence to avoid serious jail time for dozens of criminal charges that a special prosecutor was about to indict him on (who, by the way, had already succeeded in indicting Brown's wife and son on related charges).

And there is plenty of hard evidence pointing towards the possibility of murder. Like, for instance, the stated expert opinion of half a dozen top forensic pathologists who had examined Brown's body and/or the only surviving x-rays and photos of his head and wound. Indeed, the ONLY forensic pathologist still on record claiming Brown died by blunt force trauma is then Colonel Dickerson who was the head of AFIP in Dover where Brown's body was examined, which would put him in an obvious position to be part of any coverup. And I can prove that Dickerson outright lied about the facts in the case and the opinions of his staff in his dealings with the public.

For Aaronovitch to imply, as he did, that the Brown allegation was nothing more than Clinton Body Count nonsense, is a disservice to this country. Because the Brown matter (involving possibly treasonous activities by the Clinton administration) was very serious and a large body of evidence suggests someone or someones got away with the murder of a top government official (he was a Cabinet member) and, indeed, mass murder (over 30 people died), and then our government covered it up. That is definitely something that should trouble you or any reasonable person, but surprisingly, very few of you are so troubled. But in case you are interested, I have talked about the evidence in the Brown case at length on this forum. Here are links that will take you to that body of evidence and where you can watch those opposed to the allegations act pretty much like they are behaving on this thread (;)):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87011 (many posts of interest, starting with post #22)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87840 (many posts of interest, starting with post #106)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90750 (many, many posts, starting with #1)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119618 (another large thread on Brown … and Foster)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121045 (about how National Geographics and Discovery misrepresented what happened in their *history* of the subject)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134001 (more excellent, fact filled posts on Brown)

And there are more examples of Aaronovitch's bias or incompetence vis a vis the Clintons in his book. He attacks Ken Starr, suggesting he was part of a "vast right-wing conspiracy" that hounded the Clintons over what was, he implies, essentially nothing. And to be blunt, Aaronovitch's arguments against Starr are essentially nothing more than handwaving and ignore much that suggests just the opposite might have been true.

Then he lumps anyone else who covered the irregularities in Vince Foster's death in that "vast right wing conspiracy" group. For example, he lambasts Reed Irvine of AIM because he "ran many stories supporting the idea that Vince Foster had not committed suicide". Well I will tell you this … Reed Irvine clearly did what Aaronovitch did not … actually look at the facts in that case. So maybe that is Aaronovitch's real objection to Reed Irvine?

And by supporting the notion there was a "vast right wing conspiracy", Aaronovitch ultimately tries to dismiss in the minds of his readers (without dealing with any of the actual facts or evidence) the very real crimes that were committed in Whitewater, Chinagate, CampaignFinancegate, Filegate, Travelgate, Emailgate, and even Rapegate. The truth is that Aaronovitch's comments are little more than a smear campaign that could be designed to further innoculate the public against believing that the Clintons and democrats were ever engaged in serious criminal endeavors. And, ironically, Aaronovitch's cherry picking, emotion laden "methodology" to accomplish this is in a real sense no different than what he *claims* is the methodology of those he attacks as right-wing conspiracists.

The point of the book is rather to debunk the methodology of conspiracy theorists

Let me give you another example from the book to highlight Aaronvitch's own dishonest methodology. Without presenting the both sides of the issue or the very real concerns and arguments about Whitewater, he cites Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal's views about the Whitewater allegations. Here is what he writes (on page 327):

When it was all over, … snip … , a few people had a little time to analyze what had happened. Clinton's aide Sidney Blumenthal, himself once a youthful conspiracist, reflected on how the "pseudoscandal" of Whitewater had come to dominate the presidency despite the fact that "there never was anything to it, in the beginning, middle and end. And yet it led to perpetual investigation of the president, numerous stories together hinting at massive personal corruption, and a soured memory of an entire decade.

Now let me assure you that this is absolute, unmitigated GARBAGE and an obvious attempt at spreading disinformation by Aaronovitch. Rather than tell you the facts and truth about Whitewater, he allows the words of a very unsavory and dishonest person to spread lies and disinformation.

What Aaronovitch fails to mention, so that you can view Blumenthal's comments in the proper light, is that Sidney Blumenthal was one of few people allowed by democrats to be questioned under oath by the IC during Clinton's impeachment trial, where the charges against Clinton concerned lying under oath. And Sidney clearly lied during that questioning (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19..._1_aide-sidney-blumenthal-press-corps-stalker).

What Aaronovitch doesn't tell you is that Sidney Blumenthal is comfortable spreading untruths and smears. For example, when Ms Myers at NBC came out with the interview and story about Juanita Broaddrick (one of the women that Clinton reportedly raped), Sidney went around telling people that NBC and Myers were "assets of the enemy". He was the author of many of the Clinton's mean spirited "talking points". In fact, he continued to work for the Clintons and was a senior advisor to Hillary during her run for president. After Hillary was appointed Secretary of State, she wanted to hire Blumenthal, but Rahm Emmanual blocked that because Blumenthal promoted negative stories about Obama during the primary. Ironic, no?

What Aaronovitch doesn't tell you is that the Whitewater investigation actually ended up convicting 15 people of over 40 crimes, including the Governor who was Bill Clinton's successor in Arkansas. And the only reason the Clintons weren't among them is that they were shielded by some of those who fell on the sword, by the media and quite possibly Ken Starr himself.

And finally, what Aaronovitch doesn't tell you is that the Whitewater matter may indeed be connected to Foster's death. It is a fact that a Secret Service agent testified under oath that he observed Clinton administration officials (including Nussbaum, Patsy Thomasson and Margaret Williams, Hillary's chief of staff) in Foster's office the night he died and specifically observed one of them, Williams, removing files from the office (i.e, tampering with a possible crime scene since the Park Police had already asked the Whitehouse to seal the office).

At the time the agent first spoke out about this, Williams denied removing "anything" from the office. But later, the NY Times (hardly a member of the vast-right-wing conspiracy), reported that Clinton spokeswoman, Dee Dee Myers, said that Bernard Nussbaum discovered Whitewater papers in Foster's office after his death and gave them to Margaret Williams, who put them in a safe in the Clinton residence on the third floor of the White House. Another aide, Tom Castleton also testified that he helped Williams remove the files, and that he'd been told by Williams that the folders were being sent to the residence so that the President or First Lady could review them. And it was reported Williams removed the files following instructions from Hillary.

Now mind you, Hillary had previously been asked (before the NYTimes disclosure) why Ms Williams was "among those who removed these documents" from Foster's office and she'd replied "I don't think that she did remove any documents."

And mind you, there was a subpoena in effect, requiring that the Whitehouse turn over Whitewater documents to Judicial Watch. And they didn't. In fact, the documents being sought only resurfaced years later … days after the statute of limitations on the crimes they proved had elapsed … and then they suddenly turned up in the Clinton's WhiteHouse residence with Hillary's finger prints on them.

And mind you (again courtesy of the NY Times) initially both Ms Williams and Ms Thomases testified under oath they'd never talked to Hillary the night of Foster's death. But phone records were discovered that proved both did indeed call and get calls from Hillary that night. Here are some of the call records that night (courtesy of the same NY Times article):

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/03/u...stioned-anew-in-foster-case.html?pagewanted=1

7:44 A.M. (6:44 A.M., Arkansas time) Call from Miss Williams to Mrs. Clinton's parents' residence in Little Rock (7 minutes).

7:57 A.M. (6:57 A.M., Little Rock time) Call from the Rodham residence to Ms. Thomases (3 minutes).

8:01 A.M. Ms. Thomases pages Mr. Nussbaum. After her page, Ms. Thomases and Mr. Nussbaum spoke twice about the matter; she says he brought it up; he says she did. An associated in the coundel's office testified he heard that Ms. Thomases and Mrs. Clinton "may have been concerned" about investigators' access.

9:00 A.M. Ms. Thomases calls Miss Williams and leaves the message "call when you get in the office."

10:48 A.M. (3 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to Miss Williams's office.

11:04 A.M. (6 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to Mrs. Clinton's main office. 11:11 A.M. (3 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to Miss Williams's office.

11:16 A.M. (1 minute) Call from Ms. Thomases to Miss Williams's office.

11:37 A.M. (11 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to the main number of Mrs. Clinton's office.

11:50 A.M. (4 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to the main number of Mrs. Clinton's office.

12:47 P.M. Capricia Marshall, a staff member for Miss Williams, pages Miss Williams from the Rodham residence.

12:55 P.M. (1 minute) Miss Williams calls the Rodham residence.

3:05 P.M. Bil Burton, deputy chief of staff, leaves message for Miss Williams.

3:25 P.M. Stephen R. Neuwirth, associate councel, leaves message for Miss Williams.

5:13 P.M. (9 minutes 30 seconds) Call from Ms. Thomases to the main number of Mrs. Clinton's office.

5:23 P.M. (3 minutes) Call from Ms. Thomases to the office of Bruce Lindsey, the White House personnel director.

7:12 P.M. (54 seconds) Call from Ms. Thomases to the Rodham residence.

11:19 P.M. (1 minute) Call from the Rodham residence to the White House switchboard.

Here are some of the findings (courtesy of the Washington Post) of the "Final Report of The Special Committee To Investigate Whitewater Development Corporation And Related Matters":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/committee.pdf

3. Senior White House officials ignored repeated requests by law enforcement officials to seal Mr. Foster’s office on the night of his death

4. White House officials conducted an improper search of Mr. Foster’s office on the night of his death

5. Margaret Williams may have removed files from the White House Counsel suite on the night of his death

… snip ...

7. Margaret Williams and Susan Thomases, in consultation with Mrs. Clinton, took part in formulating the procedure for review- ing documents in Mr. Foster’s office on July 22, 1993

… snip ...

9. An index of documents in Mr. Foster’s office is missing and other indices were revised following his death to conceal possible references to Whitewater

… snip …

11. Margaret Williams, in consultation with Mrs. Clinton, removed files from Mr. Foster’s office to the White House residence to be reviewed by the Clintons

Do you start to get the feeling that *someone* was VERY concerned about what might be found in Foster's office? Do you begin to grasp that both Hillary and numerous Clinton administration officials repeatedly lied about what happened? What records were in Foster's office at the time of his death? We will never know, because of the tampering and lies of numerous Clinton adminstration officials, as well as Hillary.

And yet, Aaronovitch has absolutely no interest in any of this.

He'd rather take the word of Sid Blumenthal, a liar during trial about lying, to spin allegations of misconduct in Whitewater away ... as well as all the other accusations made against the Clintons over the years. Because (you claim) Aaronovitch is too busy trying to give people like you the tools to see conspiracy theorists in the proper light. Well pardon me if I gag. :D
 
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I'm not going to deal with all this, I'm employed, I don't have the time.

LOL! Well perhaps you can take a moment out of your busy schedule and just answer the first two questions I asked, namely:

So you will accept the assertion that Foster was clinically depressed (which is essential to the *official* scenario) based SOLELY on the claims made by 3 key witnesses (because there is NO physical evidence whatsoever to indicate Foster was clinically depressed), all of whom initially said Foster was not depressed and who only changed their story a week later, after a meeting in the Whitehouse? And you'll believe those three, but not the other dozen eyewitnesses who all said he was not depressed (or showing any signs of emotional problems for that matter) and are not on record having changed their stories at all?

:D

What I will point out is that literally everyone of your points began, "This one doesn't rely on eyewitness testimony except for…"

Perhaps I should have added (sarcasm) flags to help you view my "excepts" in the proper light. :D

Whatever problems existed with the Starr report are irrelevant to actual facts about the crime.

Gosh, I sure wish I could roll on the floor laughing out loud. This comment definitely deserves such a response. You do realize that's exactly the sort of response Truthers make when confronted by the vast body of facts in the WTC towers collapse? :D

But I do find this odd, are you suggesting that somehow the Starr report was a cover-up for the Clintons?

Why? Do you honestly think Starr was above being coopted by the Clintons? The fact is that Ken Starr was hand picked by the Clintons for the job of special prosecutor. He was the number two man on the list of Special Prosecutors suggested by the Clintons. When the first one (Fiske) had to bow out because of his conflicts of interest, Starr got the job. But you can be sure that the Clintons didn't mind. They would never leave anything to chance. In fact, there is sworn testimony from Nolanda Hill that "when Starr was appointed, they were opening champagne bottles in the White House".

How about Starr's performance in Filegate? Starr spent all of 10 minutes interviewing Hillary, even though several administration witnesses testified under oath that she was the mastermind behind the whole illegal activity. He failed to ask Linda Tripp, one of the key witnesses in the scandal, rather obvious and critical questions. He never did learn who hired Mark Livingstone (although now we know it was Hillary, according to Livingstone himself). And the existance of most of the illegal FBI files was not discovered by Starr and his large, expensive staff with the powers of the government behind it, but a tiny little outfit called Judicial Watch that could do nothing more than file civil law suits to force sworn testimony.

We now know for a fact that Starr worked for Clinton if for no other reason than the fact that Starr told the public during his investigation of Filegate that all the illegally gotten files had been returned to the FBI. When in fact, several years later, Robert Ray who took over from Starr admitted during an interview on TV that the files were still in the Whitehouse. Had been all along.

Now it's common knowledge that at the time Monica surfaced, Starr was ready to close up shop ... stop his investigations. But just at that moment, the Ron Brown allegation surfaced. A very serious one. Involving Chinagate and mass murder. And that allegation was getting noticed by some in the mainstream and the black community. With credible eyewitnesses such as military pathologists making the accusations. Well out of the blue, Starr discovered Monica and a sex scandal erupted ... one that took the Brown allegations out of the public's eye. You see, everyone knows sex will trump murder any day. And during the impeachment, when he had free reign, Starr showed absolutely no interest in the Ron Brown matter. Instead, he gave Bill a friendly head's up, before Bill gave sworn testimony, about a blue dress that surely would have caught Bill lying under oath if Starr had questioned him in the manner most prosecutors would have employed. And he never pursued the allegations of illegality in Chinagate, even though that was surely far more important than Monica.

And then there is Starr's Foster investigation. You think that was honest after all the lies I've noted and obvious tampering with the evidence? And I haven't even mentioned all of the instances I could have, TW. What better way to explain his complete lack of interest in what transpired at the meeting in the Whitehouse that Lisa Foster, Sheila Anthony and their lawyers attended, than his being secretly part of the team? Like I noted, even Starr's own top investigator, Miquel Rodriguez, is on the record saying that investigation was a sham.

You now want everyone to believe that Starr was just incompetent. But Starr's life story doesn't fit that description. He didn't get to where he was by being incompetent. So it's disengenuous on your part to suggest he was as an explanation for the dozens (if not hundreds) of serious mistake and oversights he made during his investigation of various Clinton related crimes. It's silly to suggest that the numerous instances of Starr obstructing the release of ANY information that might present a different view of what happened is just incompetence or coincidence.

You and Aaronovitch claim Starr was a man who was out to get the Clintons, yet when all was said and done, he made an overture for dinner with Senator Hillary Clinton and said nice things about Clinton. Do you know that in his private legal practice, during the time he was investigating the Clintons, he represented (and won a lawsuit for) a company owned by China's Peoples Liberation Army and arms dealer Wang Jun? Wang Jun was a Chinese military intelligence operative and one of the big participants in the Chinagate scandal. This fact was known at the time. Starr should have recused himself because of this alone. But he didn't. A real skeptic might reasonably wonder why? You and the others on this thread need to open your eyes and try to be a little more skeptical. :D
 

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