CIT Fraud Revealed

[jaydeehess]

Biased? You´re the one claiming that the witnesses´ dishonesty is a real possibility.
Stop clutching at straws. Their complete testimony is on record, warts and all. ...............Hahaha. Pot calling the kettle black there.

No one here has said they believe that any witness is lying except you and the CiT!

Specifically, but not limited to, the CiT claims England is lieing about his entire story and they claim Boger is lieing about watching the plane enter the Pentagon.

 

[Baylor]

Te DVD salesman is BS? as you support the delusions of CIT and can't figure out CIT is selling DVDs. Good one. Comedy in the morning, good for you.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/1CITDVDsOfDeluiosnsDumbones.jpg[/qimg]
I should start selling this stuff, a good DVD cost 20 cents, bulk your profit on the DVD goes up; Capitalism is the drive, lies on DVD from the Creepy Investigation Team; go Madelyn. By supporting the lies of CIT, you become a salesman of woo too.

In the CIT videos all the witnesses refer and point to the south flight path. All CIT flight path are impossible based on their own witnesses and this fact is backed up with RADAR, FDR, and physics which p4t can't do.

Watch out Bill Gates, the CIT juggernaut has proven to be unstoppable.

Title The Pentacon - Eyewitnesses Speak, Conspiracy Revealed
Description 9/11 Pentagon Conspiracy Revealed
Daily Pageview 175
Daily Ads Revenue $2.53

http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.thepentacon.com
Every two days they can afford to buy a new pack of cigarettes.

Edit:

Even Kevin Federline's defunct website brings in more revenue.

Title Kevin Federline | Official Site
Description
Daily Pageview 461
Daily Ads Revenue $3.38

http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.kevinfederline.com

 

[carlitos]

I have to get a website. Free cigarettes yay!

Also:

Originally Posted by mudlark
That´s twice now you´ve accused me of ´dodging´. Mind backing that claim up?

I asked what the 'flightpath' Paik drew is supposed to be, since it obviously isn't something he witnessed. He also couldn't have seen anything "above his roof", he only could have inferred it.

Then there's the physical evidence witnessed by the DC firefighters.

Then there's the impact witnesses (who you disregard because they contradict the so-called NOC witnesses which makes no sense... either witness testimony is valid evidence or it isn't?).

Then there's the complete lack of fly-over witnesses at a building surrounded by super-highways.

Then there's the math.

Then there's the high fallibility of witness testimony regarding details.

Then there's the general plausibility argument.

CIT fails at every level of analysis. None of these points have been effectively answered.

 

[jaydeehess]

Cigarettes are apparently much cheaper in the USA than in Canada. When I quit smoking 20 years ago they cost $3.00 a pack IIRC. (Though we get 25 cancer sticks per pack)

 

[carlitos]

The liquor store in my neighborhood used to sell individual cigs for a quarter. I don't really smoke, but when I do, it's a delicious menthol. A minty treat in every smoke.

I like the british packets of 10. Sleek and stylish.

 

[Jackanory]

I like the british packets of 10. Sleek and stylish.

10's are a false economy but just as deadly. We could buy loosies for 5p each at the newsagents outside school in the early 80's. Those were the days.

 

[Mr.Herbert]

Watch out Bill Gates, the CIT juggernaut has proven to be unstoppable.

Title The Pentacon - Eyewitnesses Speak, Conspiracy Revealed
Description 9/11 Pentagon Conspiracy Revealed
Daily Pageview 175
Daily Ads Revenue $2.53

http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.thepentacon.com
Every two days they can afford to buy a new pack of cigarettes.

$2.53 daily? I hear CIT bloated partner "Marquis McGriddle" uses this coin daily to endulge in his favorite early morning snack.

You gotta love the mirror pic in the bathroom.

 

[Mr.Herbert]

I accepted its validity because of the ready available credentials of the authors.

Because we all know that Balsamo attracts nothing but the best when it comes to his "core members" such as Captain Dan Hanley. This douche started spewing crap about the airlines he was rewarded with this:

....I was rewarded by expulsion from the property on trumped up charges, thereby destroying my 35-year aviation career that I worked so hard to achieve, as do all commercial airline pilots.

Nice add to your core group Bob. Perhaps he can go back to unloading 1/4 pound beef patties off food trucks!

 

[BCR]

I was informed by someone that their GE dates the images from my earlier post as 9/11/2001 and 9/12/2001 (my version dates them 9/12 and 9/13 respectively).

So the date for the crane at the VDOT tower could be either 9/12 or 9/13, depending on which version of GE you have loaded up I guess.

 

[Hokulele]

I was informed by someone that their GE dates the images from my earlier post as 9/11/2001 and 9/12/2001 (my version dates them 9/12 and 9/13 respectively).

So the date for the crane at the VDOT tower could be either 9/12 or 9/13, depending on which version of GE you have loaded up I guess.

Just curious, are you using the free or the Pro version of GE?

 

[Meed]

Specifically, but not limited to, the CiT claims England is lieing about his entire story and they claim Boger is lieing about watching the plane enter the Pentagon.

And Keith Wheelhouse. And all the impact witnesses.

 

[BCR]

Just curious, are you using the free or the Pro version of GE?

Free of course

 

[celestrin]

I was informed by someone that their GE dates the images from my earlier post as 9/11/2001 and 9/12/2001 (my version dates them 9/12 and 9/13 respectively).

So the date for the crane at the VDOT tower could be either 9/12 or 9/13, depending on which version of GE you have loaded up I guess.

GE's history slide tool is time zone dependent. The dates correspond with the computer clock by default. Someone in Hawaii would probably get the dates one day early. At least that's what I'm getting when I change the time zone for the tool to HAST...

 

[beachnut]

...

He is trying to sell fiction and lies about 911 on DVD.

Rock bottom prices?
You can have your DVDs made for you at 79 cents. So 500 DVDs at 2 bucks pulls in 1,000 dollars, for 605 dollars profit. Who is dumb enough to buy 500 dirt dumb DVDs? Fictional characters?

At least these guys were selling fiction and Kevin was able to buy back his comic books.

poor mudlark needs to stop posting; CIT does not want to support their delusions, they want to sell them on DVD at rock bottom prices and make 605 dollars on the 500 pack of stupid.

 

[mudlark]

I asked what the 'flightpath' Paik drew is supposed to be, since it obviously isn't something he witnessed. He also couldn't have seen anything "above his roof", he only could have inferred it.

Larson quotes Paik as seeing "the right wing and part of the fuselage"
He also described the plane as being "very low".

Paik had originally drew his own map:

http://es.tinypic.com/r/66kgsn/6

Are you honestly telling me that both independently verified sets of data, from both camps I might add, do NOT correlate?
You are being pedantic now in the suggestion that because he could not see the left wing and full body of the plane that he couldn´t have seen anything "above his roof".

What did he see? A right wing flying solo?? C´mon..

Then there's the physical evidence witnessed by the DC firefighters.

When did I "dodge" this? (or the former?)
What specifically did they witness? Did any of those witnesses happen to identify plane parts that of a Boeing 757-200, N644AA?
Please don´t tell me that they differentiated between victims within the Pentagon and airline passenger bodies.

If you have more detailed accounts, please tell me.

Then there's the impact witnesses (who you disregard because they contradict the so-called NOC witnesses which makes no sense... either witness testimony is valid evidence or it isn't?).

NOT another dodge from me.
I even had a personal discussion with you on this very subject.
I have never "disregarded" any "ïmpact witness".

The NOC witnesses, Navy Annex and right bank witnesses HAVEN´T been treated as you describe? As with those within metres of the lawn who contradict altitude?

That a witness believes he/she saw an " impact" is one thing but to contradict the necessary flightpath by such a margin, particularly but not solely the NOC witnesses, raises serious questions as to the validity of the claim. Particularly if it is corraborated eyewitness testimony.

Even the impact witnesses who had the best of views within that vicinity contradict the official path to differing degrees. Trajectory, altitude AND speed.

Then there's the complete lack of fly-over witnesses at a building surrounded by super-highways.

When was this point raised?

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=911

There is a rundown on the above site of the possible views from the I-395.

Then there's the math.

Okay, now I KNOW you haven´t been following this thread.
I have linked to P4T´s NOC math numerous times.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=15930

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=122

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1248677650819981509

My response to the NOC math paper presented by Reheat

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5490588&postcount=657

An interesting and revealing response after so many posts busting my stones on the math

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5489387&postcount=647

¨Unfortunately, you have also given the impression of denying those logical consequences of your argument. Hence it would be a waste of time for PfT or us or anybody to run the math on those specific 8 or 9 flight paths. Your logical inconsistency already refutes your argument.¨

P4T did the math on the AVAILABLE data, including many possible and more importantly witness compatible paths and ´right bank´ manouevres described. EVEN at the official speed of 540+mph.

Then there's the high fallibility of witness testimony regarding details.

On the one hand I "disregard" witnesses yet you call into question witness testimony as a whole?
And yes, I agree on that point BUT we are not talking of "details" in the way you are suggesting.
We have a group of verified witnesses who corraborate.
I have yet to see ONE witness contradict the NOC witnesses.
We have a group of " over the Navy Annex" witnesses. Right bank witnesses, etc..
It is intellectually dishonest to ignore ALL these witnesses.

Then there's the general plausibility argument.

CIT fails at every level of analysis. None of these points have been effectively answered.

Incredulity doesn´t come into it Cornsnail.
If the plane flew NOC it is physically impossible for an impact to occur.

This thread was intended to prove CIT fraud. It hasn´t. It has actually reinforced this witness´s NOC testimony.

Those lines Craig gets people to draw and sign on his photos.

Not being antagonistic, but I don´t see your point.
They were independently drawn by the witnesses themselves.
They ALL place the plane NOC. End of story.

 

[mudlark]

Those decode push pins on the google earth image, How did you arrive at their placement? Did you actually visit Arlington and verify the plot points with a GPS? Hokulele brings up an interesting point when she refers to the differences between a grid topographic system and a spherical one. Apparently there are issues with longitude / latitude accuracy in Google earth.

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=188285&an=

The "shadow¨ image I posted is based on Warren´s altitude data at this point and the trajectory is based on the NTSB heading/course data and physical damage.

The decode pushpins were plotted by Warren himself, but as you can see, his path misses the lightpoles. (I´m happy with that if you are )

In fact, this data shows a continual right bank until the alleged 4ft radalt reading.

http://es.tinypic.com/r/fp4lv/6

The south path in the P4T analysis is not based on Lat/long.

It is based on NTSB heading/course data and the physical damage.

If you support the impact theory, you CANNOT budge from that line otherwise the aircraft will not line up with the physical damage.

Claim 2a

The above point is also explained in "9/11: Attack On The Pentagon¨ south path.. .or else it will NOT support an "impact" theory nor cause the physical damage observed at the Pentagon.

Secondly..

A slide show shows P4T´s scale of the construction of Arlington at the end of 9/11: Attack On The Pentagon. No one has disputed it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7134448689829125037#

The following are screenshots from the Maya program:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/scale_pics/757Height.JPG

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/scale_pics/757Length.JPG

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/scale_pics/Compass.JPG

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/scale_pics/FrontView.JPG

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/scale_pics/VDOTAnt_Pent.JPG

Are you guys still SURE that Maya is only good for "cartoons" and cannot be used to simulate the Pentagon attack or other advanced simulations as described on the Autodesk website?

Edited, breaches of Rule 4. Do not hotlink to copyrighted material.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[mudlark]

In Erik's video interviews, Edward makes an interesting remark concerning the replacement of the 'bent' antenna on the VSP tower. At 07:20, Edwards states, "...the crane comes here..." and goes on to explain that they used the crane to replace the antenna.



In both Ed and Shinki's accounts, the time frame was the next day, or next couple days after the event. Shinki claims to have seen the 'bent' antenna on the day of 9/11.

Fortunately, with the new Google Earth historical imagery, it is possible for us to verify or dismiss this part of the Paik brothers accounts.

[qimg]http://zoesflight.com/files/vsp11072001.jpg[/qimg]

The first satellite image is from September 7, 2001 which can serve as a reference to the area for comparison with later images. The VSP tower location is marked using the NAD83 coordinates from the FCC ASR Registry. A-One Auto is to the upper left of the image (off image).

[qimg]http://zoesflight.com/files/vsp11122001.jpg[/qimg]

The next image is from September 12, 2001 of the same area. The time appears to be around mid-day (based on shadows). On the 12th, there seems to be very little activity around the tower and not much has changed since the 6th.

[qimg]http://zoesflight.com/files/vsp11132001.jpg[/qimg]

On September 13, 2001, the situation has changed dramatically around the tower. Low and behold, there seems to be a very large piece of equipment (red arrow) parked to the south of the tower with a tall structure casting a long shadow associated with it.

Consistent with Ed and Shinki Paik's accounts, there is indeed a large crane parked at the VSP tower which they claim was used to replace the 'bent' antenna. I don't know why inquiries with the State of Virginia, VSP, or VDOT have turned up no records for the work being done, but there is definitely something going on just as eyewitnesses describe.

Footnote:

I said earlier that I was done with this 'thread', but a more accurate statement would be I am done with the 'mudlap thread'. If he comes up with something other than cartoons let me know and I'll take him off ignore.

Houkele and I discussed the difference between spherical and topographical coordinates a year or so ago at some length as I recall. It is well to point out as AW Smith has already done to keep the distinction in mind. As mentioned in the documentation of my resultant model, there are NO datum corrections in any of the positional data calculated by me (I actually do provide the equations used). At the desired accuracy of my effort (+/- 0.25 seconds) datum errors are going to be well inside the error band (a plane can cover a lot of distance in 1/4 second at 400 knots!). Of course I don't expect CIT/P4T to grasp the concept of an error range associated with a model, so why even try to explain it to them. What I did want to point out though is that the FCC coordinates (NAD83 datum) are entered into GE for the VSP tower, they DO NOT align with the satellite imagery of the tower exactly (slightly east). That hopefully will illustrate that issue a little more clearly.

Are you suggesting a conspiracy BCR? That there is an official cover-up?

Let´s see the VDOT saga played out..

Erik Larson:

"I've seen Farmer again confirm with the VDOT - after trying not to - that there was no damage. And I re-located and read Pickering's assessment that the FBI was putting up the extra antenna for communications."

The following is a person, who like most here HATES CIT and was hell bent on proving an SOC path:

Russell Pickering:

"I went to the VDOT to confirm it hadn't been hit. It had not. Then in Edward's interview I asked him if he actually saw it hit the tower and he said no. Then I asked him if it hit the solid metal part of the tower and he said no. What he said was that it hit a smaller antenna of 2-3 meters in length on the top. He ended up telling us the reason he thought it had been hit was because he saw somebody up on the tower working the next day.

What had happened then is he incorporated a conclusion from something he saw later into his memory of the original account. The real story is that when the FBI took over the VDOT as a command post they added antennas to the tower for communication.

If we hadn't taken the time to follow this through and get to the bottom of it we might have another Pentagon myth on our hands."

John Farmer:

Lynn Spencer (author, "Touching History") joined me in a FOIA with the State of Virginia for any records of the activity on the tower in the 9/11/2001 time frame. The following is their 12/9/2001 response.


After thorough research by both VDOT and VSP personnel who were present that day, there was no damage to the antenna installation at Columbia Pike, September 11, 12, 2001. In addition, a request for information was directed to the VSP Radio Division, the owner of the antenna in question. They provided further confirmation that there was no damage to the antenna. There is no information that documents any activity on this structure/antenna.

Please let us know if we can help you in any other way.

Kim A. Kile-Davidson
Policy & Planning Specialist
Northern Virginia District

Just to reiterate, VDOT and VSP found no information that documents any activity or damage on this structure/antenna.

Kim A. Kile-Davidson
Policy & Planning Specialist
Northern Virginia District

The VDOT fully admits that the FBI took over their building so the fact that there is no record of some extra communications being added to the tower is no big surprise.
But there would be ZERO reason for them to cover up the fact that the plane hit the tower if this was actually the case.
Why would they??

ZERO witnesses report seeing the plane hit the tower (including Shinki) so there is ZERO independent evidence for this.

You tell me if there appears to be the damage you quoted:

VDOT tower Sepember 11 2001

 

[dtugg]

Seriously muddy, what cut of the CITiot/Pfffft sales do you get for shilling their insane nonsense? I realize that it can't be very much, but it if you don't have a job, which you surely do not, it must be better than nothing.

 

[carlitos]

Are you guys still SURE that Maya is only good for "cartoons"

No, Maya is also useful for speaking with the indigenous people of the Yucatan.

mudlark, I do give you credit for responding to some direct points. What do you think happened to the other 3 flights, just out of curiousity?

 

[Mr.Herbert]

Show the animation of the plane flying around the explosion... .then tell us all how so many people missed it.