Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fulcanelli]

I'd be interested if any of the supposedly solid evidence for the body having been moved a long time after death (as opposed to, say, a few minutes) can be backed up by any supporting evidence. It was discussed during the closed session at trial, as far as I can make out, so beyond the Micheli report I'm not sure where the source for this evidence is...

That would be down to the the imprint of her shoulder and bra strap having dried into the floor in her initial position combined with the lack of blood on her socks, shoes or jeans combined with the lividity on her shoulder from being in that position for so long.

Anything else you need?

 

[piktor]

"It's clear at this point that you don't understand the difference between a prosecution claim and proof. For example, what is the specific evidence that proves the victim was already dead when her bra was removed?"- Kestrel #3689

Proof that the bra was on and then taken off after death presents itself because the right bra strap was covered in blood. The left bra strap had no blood. That means the victim died with the bra on and the blood on the right strap means she was leaning on her right side at time of agony and death.

BUT the bra was found at the feet of the victim, not on her.

There is also a distinct puddle of the victim's congealed blood indicating the placing of the victim's right shoulder at the time of death. There is congealed blood on the floor to mark this.There are photos documenting this evidence and there is police testimony corroborating the conclusions presented with the photos. Some of the blood at that precise place shows drag markings in the direction of the final placement of the dead body, face up. The victim was dragged a few inches to her right and placed parallel to the bed.

This is documented and explained by police photos and detailed description by the police documenting the findings and conclusions arrived from factual, photographed evidence and by detectives at the scene. This was presented in court and police's testimony and expert testimony for the prosecution also corroborate the police's findings.

As I say, you can dispense with the allelles and the bra clasp and the small DNA sample on the knife and still you have old fashioned policework doing good by the victim.

 

[quadraginta]

Are you saying that you do not believe that Meredith's body was moved post-mortem and before it was discovered by the police?

That has been established beyond all doubt.

I am of the same opinion. Certainly beyond all reasonable doubt, at the very least. And that, as we have been so stridently reminded, is the golden standard.

I want to see what Kestrel's response is, because I would like to see some statement from that source more committed than the usual oatmeal and weasel-poop that has been offered so far.

Of course...some will try and throw dust, almost as if the trial never happened and the evidence was never presented and the facts never established. For them, the trial is a non-event to pretend never happened. The only exception, is those things they feel help their position and suddenly the trial is, briefly, remembered. Only to then be forgotten all over again five minutes later.

Induced memory removal?

 

[piktor]

Another point on blood after death.

When a person dies, the blood on the body stops circulating and deposits itself on the lower part of the body, closest to the surface the body is resting on. There are distinct purple markings called lividity. If a person dies on its back the congealed blood will be deposited on the person's back, buttocks and back of the thighs and legs. If a person dies on its side, the congealed blood will deposit itself on the side the person died on. If a person dies face down, lividity will present itself on the stomach, chest and front part of thighs and legs.

In this case the victim died on her right side. Her right shoulder presented lividty on the outer side of the shoulder, where it touched the floor. The police found her lying on her back, face up.

 

[piktor]

Induced memory removal?

It's called 'pulling a Knox'.

 

[Alt+F4]

You are presenting the claim that what Raffaele wrote in his diary is a lie. Do you have evidence to back that up?

Only two days before the murder, the three of them - Raffaele, Amanda and Meredith went to the Chocolate Festival together. They could have stopped at Raffaele's place for lunch or a snack before of after the festival or on one of the preceding days as friends often do.

Well let's see:
- No one saw Meredith entering or leaving Raffaele's apartment.
- Amanda did not back up his story.
- No one who knew Meredith said she told them she had ever been in his apartment.
- Raffaele's defense team never asked to look for evidence in his apartment that Meredith had been there. Why not look for her fingerprints or DNA to back up his story?
- No evidence of a minor knife wound on her hand prior to the murder.

It is also my understanding (though I might be wrong) that the DNA found on the big knife was not at the very tip but a centimeter or two lower down on the blade, below the tip. If this is the case then for Raffaele's story to be true he would have to have stabbed her "by accident" quite hard, leaving a noticeable wound.

What evidence do you have that his lie was not a lie?

 

[piktor]

I think we're going to go with the trained and impartial medical examiner on this one. He's a professional at assessing the meaning of the position of a body, marks on it, and other things we can only guess at.

The defence has had its chance to refute the prosecution's theory and expert witnesses. All have been questioned and cross examined by the judges and the defense.

The explanation by investigators on how the victim came to her death is not rogue prosecution by fantasy. It is up to the defence to come up with a believable alternative narration. The defence has failed at this, time and time again.

 

[stilicho]

Only two days before the murder, the three of them - Raffaele, Amanda and Meredith went to the Chocolate Festival together. They could have stopped at Raffaele's place for lunch or a snack before of after the festival or on one of the preceding days as friends often do.

Friends often attend the other's memorial service instead of tucking into pizza with their boyfriend.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Friends often attend the other's memorial service instead of tucking into pizza with their boyfriend.

Not always.

One of my supervisors passed away a few weeks ago, quite suddenly, from a heartattack (he was in his 40's). One of the guys that had worked directly for him for the past 8 years was so upset that he refused to attend the funeral, and spent only a little time at the wake. It does happen that people are quite upset over a friend's death, especially one so unexpected and horrific.

However, when the pizza and other aspects of Amanda's attitude following the murder are put together, we see a pattern emerge - not one of a girl grief-stricken by her friend's brutal murder (while she listened to the screams/in her own cottage?) but a young woman having a lark. Even if it's not damning evidence, it's quite a poor reflection on Amanda.

 

[Dan O.]

Well let's see:
- No one saw Meredith entering or leaving Raffaele's apartment.
- Amanda did not back up his story.
- No one who knew Meredith said she told them she had ever been in his apartment.
- Raffaele's defense team never asked to look for evidence in his apartment that Meredith had been there. Why not look for her fingerprints or DNA to back up his story?
- No evidence of a minor knife wound on her hand prior to the murder.

None of which proves the statement is not true. But at least you didn't succumb to making up an elaborate lie such as claiming that someone actually denied the event took place.

Those are however good points as to why the defense would not make the claim in court.

It is also my understanding (though I might be wrong) that the DNA found on the big knife was not at the very tip but a centimeter or two lower down on the blade, below the tip. If this is the case then for Raffaele's story to be true he would have to have stabbed her "by accident" quite hard, leaving a noticeable wound.

Your understanding is correct. The early press report was that the DNA was found on the tip. Presumably, Raffaele had seen this report before making the entry in his diary. I don't think we have been told exactly where the DNA was found but in at least one image of the knife you can see the long rubbing marks that Stefanoni refers to near the middle of the blade.

What evidence do you have that his lie was not a lie?

First of all, what is a lie? From wikipedia we can find: "To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth." Since we are only talking about something that Raffaele wrote in a private diary, there isn't a second party to be lied to.

When we find evidence that the statement was intended to be presented as a defense I'll look for evidence that supports or refutes it. Until then, it isn't even an issue.

 

[Kestrel]

Proof that the bra was on and then taken off after death presents itself because the right bra strap was covered in blood. The left bra strap had no blood. That means the victim died with the bra on and the blood on the right strap means she was leaning on her right side at time of agony and death.

An alternative is that Rudy removed the bra after Meredith's throat was cut, as he was sexually assaulting the dying girl.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

First of all, what is a lie? From wikipedia we can find: "To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth." Since we are only talking about something that Raffaele wrote in a private diary, there isn't a second party to be lied to.

When we find evidence that the statement was intended to be presented as a defense I'll look for evidence that supports or refutes it. Until then, it isn't even an issue.

Absolutely amazing. This is an example of reasonable doubt, I guess.

 

[quadraginta]

An alternative is that Rudy removed the bra after Meredith's throat was cut, as he was sexually assaulting the dying girl.

Are you saying that you do not believe that Meredith's body was moved post-mortem and before it was discovered by the police?

 

[stilicho]

An alternative is that Rudy removed the bra after Meredith's throat was cut, as he was sexually assaulting the dying girl.

How did that one fly in court?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

How did that one fly in court?

I'm guessing it went something like this:

 

[Fulcanelli]

It is also my understanding (though I might be wrong) that the DNA found on the big knife was not at the very tip but a centimeter or two lower down on the blade, below the tip. If this is the case then for Raffaele's story to be true he would have to have stabbed her "by accident" quite hard, leaving a noticeable wound.

Yes, this is correct.

 

[Fulcanelli]

An alternative is that Rudy removed the bra after Meredith's throat was cut, as he was sexually assaulting the dying girl.

No, it isn't an alternative. She'd been dead a very long time when when her bra was removed. It was removed at the same time as the rest of her body was stripped and moved. Hours after death.

 

[Fulcanelli]

First of all, what is a lie? From wikipedia we can find: "To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth." Since we are only talking about something that Raffaele wrote in a private diary, there isn't a second party to be lied to.

Raffaele's diary wasn't private and was never intended to be.

 

[Fulcanelli]

How did that one fly in court?

It didn't since it never arose in the first place. The defence chose to simply ignore the whole matter.

 

[piktor]

An alternative is that Rudy removed the bra after Meredith's throat was cut, as he was sexually assaulting the dying girl.

Not only did the victim's right shoulder leave a blood imprint on the floor, the right bra strap also left a mark on the congealed blood pooled in this area.

The victim died with the bra still on her. There is no doubt or speculation about this. It is factual.

On the subject of the victim's right leg position, it corroborates that the crime scene was staged and was recorded by investigators at the crime scene.

It has been proven that the victim's pants and underwear were pulled off post mortem. The victim's sox were pulled off post mortem.The bra was cut off post mortem. The victim was positioned face up post mortem. The victim's right leg was pulled up post mortem.

The crime scene at the victim's room was all a staged presentation. This is not speculation. It is a fact.