Germany had the atomic bomb first

[VonKleist]

According to the program, Hitler said to his troops in reference to the new weapon, "May God forgive me for the last five minutes of the war."

The only 'troops' Hitler talked to by this time in the war were panzerfaust-toting children.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

So in other words, it's like the WMD's in Iraq. We know they had them, and that they had great incentive to use them, but they just kinda... chose not to.

 

[Foolmewunz]

According to the program, Hitler said to his troops in reference to the new weapon, "May God forgive me for the last five minutes of the war."

I see that what you actually meant to say was "according to some other program"..... Normally, we'd criticize someone for such sloppy citing, but you are our MaGZ, after all, and you've never deigned to post accurate citations in the past, so why start now, eh?

And since the other program offers no actual EVIDENCE of this address to the troops, just where and when was it to have happened? There aren't a whole lot of instances of Adolf addressing the troops that haven't been related by someone who was there, after all, and "Yo, we've got nuclear weapons!" sounds like a pretty memorable line. Or was this some super-loyal inner circle who he said it to.

If Hitler had the bomb in '44, the Eastern Front from then until '45 would've made the world forget the Holocaust and the invasions of '39 to '41. He would've had the boys hand-carry the thing, if necessary, out to kill Russians.

 

[shadron]

I think the proponents of the "German A-Bomb theory" place their faith in the Kurt Diebner program and discount Heisenberg. From what I can see the Diebner theory relies entirely on circumstantial evidence. I think the most telling fact that discounts bomb claims is that the Manhattan project was a multinational effort that cost about 30 billion dollars and needed thousands of scientist and a vast investment of resources. The Germans on the other hand had less than 100 scientist and a constantly shrinking resource base to work with. Also if they had a couple of A-bombs I think they would have tested them on the Russians regardless of how crude they were.

Even PBS is entertaining Diebner's theorist.

"During the last months of the war, a small group of scientists working in secret under Diebner and with the strong support of the physicist Walther Gerlach, who was by that time head of the uranium project, built and tested a nuclear device.

At best this would have been far less destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Rather it is an example of scientists trying to make any sort of weapon they could in order to help stave off defeat. No one knows the exact form of the device tested. But apparently the German scientists had designed it to use chemical high explosives configured in a hollow shell in order to provoke both nuclear fission and nuclear fusion reactions. It is not clear whether this test generated nuclear reactions, but it does appear as if this is what the scientists had intended to occur".

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/close.html

I went to the NOVA site and read what was there. Their expert, Prof of modern German History Mark Walker, makes no case, at least on the NOVA page; it just asserts it. I don't believe it, for a number of reasons:

- The bomb diagram on the page there, while remeniscent of both the gun and implosion devices, seems to be neither. I don't see how it could work. The plutonium core was surrounded not by explosive but by "deckmantel" (cloak?), whatever that is; there's no sign of the fancy cast explosives that Fat Boy required. A slug of something is apparently shot into that to initiate the explosion. Considering the problems that Manhattan had in getting the implosion method right, I can't imagine his would do more than splatter extremely expensive plutonium everywhere. Thin Man required precise machining and a lot of experimentation, "twisting the dragon's tail", to determine how much metal was required for criticality. The choices of the metals used in the two designs was critical. And then there are the initiators.

-Where did they get plutonium? Over here we built huge reactors to cook U238 into Pl, then went through a chemical recovery ro strain it out of the U in quantities of fractions of a percent, and it made a hell of a mess on square miles of Washington real estate. The largest reactor found after the war was still 30% in size away from getting just to critical.

- Where did they get the uranium? The only sources at their disposal was from the Czech mines at Joachisthmal, and Belgian sources in Africa (cut off from Europe after the war started), that I know of. They confiscated a 1200 tons of Czech ore when they invaded Belgium, but it was all recovered by Alsos in it's original ore form, apparently untouched.

- Where did it get the heavy water moderator? You can't build a reactor without a moderator or bomb grade uranium/plutonium. They snatched 40 gallons of D2O in their invasions, but two separate sabotage events by the Norwegians spiked all the output of the Vemork plant for the rest of the war. Diebner stated, after the war, that:

When one considers that, right up to the end of the war in 1945, there was virtually no increase in heavy water stocks in Germany...it could be seen that the elimination of German heavy water production in Noway was the main factor in our failure to achieve a self-sustained atomic reactor before the war ended.

This lack of D2O, I think, was the main reason Heisenberg couldn't build a critical reactor. That, and he probably was dragging his feet heavily. BTW, Rhodes notes that Diebner and Heisenberg hated each other.

- Where's the radioactivity? We've ruined square miles of America building our bombs, and it would have been obvious to a trained investigator where those were, even without any knowledge about Manhattan. (We do know how to clean them up, of course, having 60 additional years and billions of dollars to learn how.) Testing of the soil in the area identified in Rainer Karlsch's book shows no sign of radioactivity.

- Where's the people who did the work? They all disappeared? They all clammed up, even after Germany's defeat? This, IMO, is where all conspiracy theories die; none can explain the needful, adamantly maintained security that fails only for the theorist. Diebner and Gerlag were picked up in Germany by Alsos, as were all the rest previously mentioned.

Wikipedia concludes that Diebner may have developed a dirty bomb. Apparently Walker is nearly all by himself in thinking Germany tested a nuclear weapon. Rainer Karlsch, a historian with a doctorate in economics, claims it was a combination fission/fusion device, which is ridiculous on its face, as the physics of fusion didn't yet exist, even in the Manhattan project, where it was only Teller's dream..

 

[Skeptic]

Those damn Germans are soooooooooooo stupid.

They had all the advanced technology first, including the atom bomb, and STILL totally lost the war and had the Jews cripple them forever with the massive holocaust lie so that they became merely a pawn in the Jews' world-domination strategy.

Master race?

HA!

 

[shadron]

They knew where the bomb would go off, or when it would go off, but not both at the same time.

 

[Rasmus]

- The bomb diagram on the page there, while remeniscent of both the gun and implosion devices, seems to be neither. I don't see how it could work. The plutonium core was surrounded not by explosive but by "deckmantel" (cloak?), whatever that is; there's no sign of the fancy cast explosives that Fat Boy required.

I think it's supposed to drop a small quantity of plutonium (the red cylinder-bit in the top of the bomb) down into the sphere of plutonium at the bottom.

The red bit on top is placed in what is called "Rohr mit Mantel" or "pipe with cloak". (I think "Mantel" here means a kind of shielding)

The lower "Deckmantel" would be spherical and might have a hole on top for the plutonium to fall through.

Also, on top of the smaller mass of plutonium there is something in the pipe - it might indicate explosives that would propell the plutonium down.

There are also bits marked "rip cord" and "timer". The bomb is build to be parachuted down, so it makes sense to activate the timer on release.

Of course, the site only claims that the drawing is indicating that someone was working on a nuclear bomb. No argument there.

 

[shadron]

I think it's supposed to drop a small quantity of plutonium (the red cylinder-bit in the top of the bomb) down into the sphere of plutonium at the bottom.

The red bit on top is placed in what is called "Rohr mit Mantel" or "pipe with cloak". (I think "Mantel" here means a kind of shielding)

The lower "Deckmantel" would be spherical and might have a hole on top for the plutonium to fall through.

Also, on top of the smaller mass of plutonium there is something in the pipe - it might indicate explosives that would propell the plutonium down.

There are also bits marked "rip cord" and "timer". The bomb is build to be parachuted down, so it makes sense to activate the timer on release.

Of course, the site only claims that the drawing is indicating that someone was working on a nuclear bomb. No argument there.

I just went looking for some specifics about Pu and U235 fission. It turns out that Pu fissions so fast that any realistic gun type bomb would fizzle before the Pu plug made it down the gun barrel; the only realistic thing this could be is a dirty bomb, an intentional fizzle, with the deckmantel being a solid inertial tamper. What a wretched, demonic idea for a weapon.

I still see no reason to believe that Germany had any plutonium available to it at all. Thank the FSM.

 

[Damien Evans]

A recent Military Channel documentary "Mission for Mussolini" argues Germany first exploded the atomic bomb on a island in the Baltic Sea in October 1944 and again in central Germany in March 1945.

German scientists had the bomb first before the Americans.

Put down the bong.

 

[theprestige]

Man, those Nazis were awsome! Despite being world leaders in every kind of weapons technology imaginable, they still managed to receive savage beatdowns wherever they went!

 

[Safe-Keeper]

A recent Military Channel documentary "Mission for Mussolini" argues Germany first exploded the atomic bomb on a island in the Baltic Sea in October 1944 and again in central Germany in March 1945.

Churchill commented: "Wrong country, idiots!".

 

[realpaladin]

Hitler's statement was in the Military Channel program "Mission for Mussolini" not the Nova program on the German bomb.

Watched it. No proof.

It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.

MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge?

 

[Fnord]

According to the program, Hitler said to his troops in reference to the new weapon, "May God forgive me for the last five minutes of the war."

He may also have been referring to his plans to commit suicide with Eva if the Allies should win -- suicide being a sin in the Roman Catholic Church, of which Herr Hitler claimed to be a member.

 

[Fnord]

Watched it. No proof.

It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.

MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge?

A lot of people obtain their 'knowledge' of science and history from such programs -- they're of a genre referred to as, "Speculative Reporting" in which provocative questions are raised and then circumstantial and anecdotal evidence are given. The facts may be presented as well, but they are usually downplayed if favour of entertainment.

Even intelligent, educated people fall for that king of manure, and not just the trailer-dwelling "National Enquirer" reading crowd.

 

[GanipGnop]

The Proof Is In Your Imagination

A lot of people obtain their 'knowledge' of science and history from such programs -- they're of a genre referred to as, "Speculative Reporting" in which provocative questions are raised and then circumstantial and anecdotal evidence are given. The facts may be presented as well, but they are usually downplayed if favour of entertainment.

Even intelligent, educated people fall for that king of manure, and not just the trailer-dwelling "National Enquirer" reading crowd.

I agree the "History" channel does this all the time with programs like:

1) The Nostradamus Effect
2) MonsterQuest
3) MysteryQuest
4) UFO Hunters
5) Numerous 2012 programs

 

[zooterkin]

DIdn't we go over this once already?

ETA: From that thread, since MaGz seemed to miss it:

I actually saw the documentary on the Military Channel and there was no reference to a dirty bomb. The documentary supports nuclear detonations by Germany in the Fall of 1944 and March 1945.

According to you; according to the site I quoted, the same documentary supports the idea that if Germany was doing anything in the field, it was producing a dirty bomb, not a fission weapon. There's not a whole lot of evidence either way.

Dirty bombs are post-9/11 weapons.

My immediate reaction, above, was that this is nonsense. Now I've had a chance to do a tiny amount of research, I can say categorically that it is complete bollocks. The fear of a terrorist dirty bomb may have increased after the WTC attack, but that was just due to increased awareness of terrorism, particularly in the US (outside the US, we've been aware of terrorism for some time). For example, in 1990s, Chechen separatists placed a couple of dirty bombs (although they may not have ever intended to detonate them). The idea of a terrorist dirty bomb goes back much further.

Are all your statements as well-researched as that one?

No country in during WW II was seeking to build a dirty bomb.

Apart from, possibly, Germany...

 

[realpaladin]

I agree the "History" channel does this all the time with programs like:

1) The Nostradamus Effect
2) MonsterQuest
3) MysteryQuest
4) UFO Hunters
5) Numerous 2012 programs

Don't forget NatGeo's "Is it real?" series here as well.

Television is a business trying to make money, so they cater for the most gullible eyeballs (the ones that make numbers and draw advertisers).

Now if the kids came up with "I went to library X, talked to Mr. Y" then there would be some serious research going on.

I suspect most of the "knowledge" of MaGZ and Saggy is passed down to each other as a method to strengthen the group-feeling.

As I said (in this or another thread), they are just like the Goth-kids, the Emo-kids, the Vamp-kids etc.

With the difference that when they grow up, they do not shed the fantasies of youth.

 

[MaGZ]

Watched it. No proof.

It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.

MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge?

Please provide the link so others may view it.

 

[GanipGnop]

Großer Fuß Phantastisch!

Watched it. No proof.

It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.

MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge?

You mean to tell us even Hagatha's story of bright lights and big noises didn't convince you she saw an atomic flash when she was a kid? What about the fact that some guy wrote a book and they had pictures of craters!

My main question is did you see any Großer Fuß in the photos?

 

[realpaladin]

Please provide the link so others may view it.

Forum rules prohibit me to post things like .torrents and .NZB files.

But to help you out... a certain swedish site with a in their name the description of seafaring rogues and a type of safe haven for ships can help you out.

And of course there is always Usenet.

EDIT: And before anyone goes into legality: I am in the Netherlands now and downloading is legal. Uploading or linking is not.