What about this crop circle?

[Fnord]

The "Crop Circles" were made by humans, with nothing more elaborate than string, lumber, manual labour and maybe a computer-generated blueprint. To claim this is not to engage in creating a hoax.

To claim that the "Crop Circles" were created by space aliens, microwaves, gravimetric holography or any other agent that either does not exist or that could not possibly manipulate grain is to engage in a hoax.

To fall for the hoax displays a lapse or lack of reasoning skills.

Some people will believe anything, unless there is real, scientifically-vetted and repeatably verifiable evidence to back it up. Just as there are some people that will perpetrate a hoax solely for personal gain or attention. These people are low-lifes.

So then, the question becomes, "How low can they go?"

 

[Spektator]

Whatever made the crop pictogram in the OP evidently is a fain of the original Star Trek.

 

[Limbo]

Are you saying that people make these crop circles without any planning, knowledge, or even memory of making them?

No. I'm saying that at some point in the process, something paranormal is involved. I think that something is our own natural psychic ability, acting at an unconscious and collective level. As a result the line between "genuine" circles and "hoaxed" circles is blurred. Both can display anomalies, it seems.

 

[fls]

Thank you Fnord. I must say you put in an awful lot more effort on Limbo's behalf than Limbo did in attempting to provide evidence.

So it appears that Limbo believes evidence for Psi is hidden somewhere in that booklist, though actually to describe the evidence is somehow too difficult. Oh well. <shrug>

Well, I've actually read some of those books and others recommended by Limbo. After doing so, I have advised Limbo that she/he no longer recommend them to anyone with a modicum of understanding of research methods or statistics or of comparative mythology. Under those circumstances, they have the effect of discrediting parapsychology and the investigation of psi (and the collective unconsciousness or consciousness). It is disconcerting (to say the least) to discover that what some obviously consider the 'best' writing on the subject includes information which the authors must know to be untrue, a surprising degree of incuriosity, and a whole lot of 'stuff I pulled out of my ass and for no particular reason decided to say out loud'. That is, if you don't want to become cynical about whether or not there is any legitimate investigation into these topics, it may be best to remain ignorant of what seems to pass for investigation by the proponents of these ideas.

Linda

 

[Fnord]

No. I'm saying that at some point in the process, something paranormal is involved.

Evidence, please?

I think that something is our own natural psychic ability, acting at an unconscious and collective level.

Evidence, please?

As a result the line between "genuine" circles and "hoaxed" circles is blurred. Both can display anomalies, it seems.

The only lines being blurred are those dividing fantasy and reality, speculation and fact, or faith and truth.

Faith proves nothing. Especially faith in 'paranormal' influences.

 

[Alley Cat]

And the term "man-made crop circle" is slightly unnecessary, is there any other kind?

You won't believe this, but there are Whole Threads on this website, devoted to people who think they're made by Aleeeyuns

 

[Stray Cat]

Ok, I see where you're coming from.

I think it's in part two of the video that Paul Randles is interviewed.

"It was purely for our own research purposes. We found on that one, the rapeseed...very brittle, and with rapeseed you would always more or less snap it. As soon as you start pressing it down to the ground. And we also remember removing some of the really damaged crop. Taken with us and disposed of it.

And we saw later that when we looked at photos of that same circle that the rapeseed oil was actually perfectly bent. And wasn't snapped. Like it was when we saw it and made it. This was very sort of intriguing to us.

Almost like something had come and tidied up behind us." -Paul Randles

I don't know what Randles motives or intention behind his statement you quoted were, but from my own experience, crop circle researchers only photograph those bits which fit with their perception of how the 'genuine' phenomenon should look. OSR is notoriously difficult to work with (though getting easier with the introduction of new 'dwarf' varieties) and yet there are several examples on the web, of crop circle researchers holding up perfectly bent stalks (not broken), this is a characteristic of natural plant recovery. It is selectively showing it's intended audience the supposed 'conclusive' proof that humans couldn't possibly be responsible.

I also notice that Randles says "almost like something had come and tidied up behind us"

So in this case, Paul is making two claims about the circle. First that he made it, and second that "something" else was involved. So if both claims are true, is it man-made or not?

Firsty you (or he) would have to show that both claims were true. Anything precluding a conclusion for both the claims would be speculation.

 

[I Ratant]

A hoax is only a hoax if a false claim is made.

For the vast majority of crop circles, no claims are made by circlemakers.
All the 'hoaxing' is entirely centered around the crop circle researchers who constantly make false claims about them, but the circles themselves are not hoaxes, they are anonymous and ambiguous pieces of art intended entirely for the audience to decide upon.

And the term "man-made crop circle" is slightly unnecessary, is there any other kind?

.
There's the occasional circles seen from the air here in the Antelope Valley.
Not the circular irrigation circles, these are smaller, and usually at first denuded of vegetation. The next year, they are more abundantly grassed and flowered than the surrounding areas. !
Attributing these to sheep pens used by the sheep herders in the area is too mundane an explanation.
They -must be- flying saucer landing sites!
And it fits with the numerous secret devices flown around the Antelope Valley all the time!

 

[I Ratant]

The "Crop Circles" were made by humans, with nothing more elaborate than string, lumber, manual labour and maybe a computer-generated blueprint. To claim this is not to engage in creating a hoax.

To claim that the "Crop Circles" were created by space aliens, microwaves, gravimetric holography or any other agent that either does not exist or that could not possibly manipulate grain is to engage in a hoax.

To fall for the hoax displays a lapse or lack of reasoning skills.

Some people will believe anything, unless there is real, scientifically-vetted and repeatably verifiable evidence to back it up. Just as there are some people that will perpetrate a hoax solely for personal gain or attention. These people are low-lifes.

So then, the question becomes, "How low can they go?"

.
All the way to Washington DC... or, choose the capital of your country.

 

[Stray Cat]

You won't believe this, but there are Whole Threads on this website, devoted to people who think they're made by Aleeeyuns

Oh I believe it...

But as for the evidence to prove that the belief is justified:

 

[I Ratant]

No. I'm saying that at some point in the process, something paranormal is involved. I think that something is our own natural psychic ability, acting at an unconscious and collective level. As a result the line between "genuine" circles and "hoaxed" circles is blurred. Both can display anomalies, it seems.

.
All circles are genuine circles.
They are made to bamboozle the less well wrapped individuals who wish there were ETs... QED.

 

[Stray Cat]

They are made to bamboozle the less well wrapped individuals who wish there were ETs... QED.

Perhaps there are more motives than the very narrow one you propose.
If bamboolzling ET fans was a primary reason, the complexity wouldn't have to be so great... The simple circles of the 80's were enough to do that.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

.
All circles are genuine circles.
They are made to bamboozle the less well wrapped individuals who wish there were ETs... QED.

"All circles are genuine circles."?

Piffle I say Sir. Piffle. I have read somewhere on the 'net that expert cerealogists have measured many real ones with yardsticks and report that some are out of round by as much as an-inch-and-half!

 

[realpaladin]

Perhaps there are more motives than the very narrow one you propose.
If bamboolzling ET fans was a primary reason, the complexity wouldn't have to be so great... The simple circles of the 80's were enough to do that.

I can give you another motive: art in nature.

The same feeling that graffiti gives, but with a 'go green' sticker on it.

And you have the benefit of a bigger audience as well AND people try to protect your piece instead of rushing to 'wash/wipe' it away.

 

[Limbo]

I don't know what Randles motives or intention behind his statement you quoted were, but from my own experience, crop circle researchers only photograph those bits which fit with their perception of how the 'genuine' phenomenon should look.

I don't know his motives or intentions either, but is his testimony atypical of circlemakers? Most circlemakers make paranormal claims, don't they?

As for your claim about researchers and photos, I can't address that. I've never been to a crop circle and watched researchers photograph a circle. But I have seen some impressive photos.

 

[Alley Cat]

I can give you another motive: art in nature.

The same feeling that graffiti gives, but with a 'go green' sticker on it.

And you have the benefit of a bigger audience as well AND people try to protect your piece instead of rushing to 'wash/wipe' it away.

This reinforces my suspicion that the reason Banksy has been so quiet in the cities in recent times, is because he's become one of the crop circlers.

 

[Stray Cat]

This reinforces my suspicion that the reason Banksy has been so quiet in the cities in recent times, is because he's become one of the crop circlers.

Banksy... Quiet?

"Banksy created 10 street pieces in Park City and Salt Lake City to coincide with the premiere of his film "Exit Through the Gift Shop" at the Sundance film festival in Jan 2010. The 5 pieces shown in this video were destroyed by local government officials who have a policy of removing graffiti within 72 hours.
The 5 remaining pieces are all in Park City, where there is a campaign to preserve them."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCREoKrsPSg

 

[Limbo]

I can give you another motive: art in nature.

The same feeling that graffiti gives, but with a 'go green' sticker on it.

And you have the benefit of a bigger audience as well AND people try to protect your piece instead of rushing to 'wash/wipe' it away.

You make it sound like the crop circle phenomenon is modern. Or are you suggesting that such a motive is as pre-modern as crop circles?

 

[realpaladin]

I don't know his motives or intentions either, but is his testimony atypical of circlemakers? Most circlemakers make paranormal claims, don't they?

As for your claim about researchers and photos, I can't address that. I've never been to a crop circle and watched researchers photograph a circle. But I have seen some impressive photos.

http://www.medwaycropcircle.co.uk/boxley06aWB-TIDAL-WAVEsmall.jpg

<snippety>

http://www.korncirkler.dk/korncirkler/best/E45.jpg

Cool huh?

We human beings are a nifty inventive bunch.

And you may not like this, but as impressive as these crop circles are, they are nowhere near as impressive as:

- The Large Hadron Collider
- The International Space Station
- The Fusion Reactor testbeds

And

- Rembrandt's Nightwatch
- Burj Al Arab

And

- 3D Cinema experiences

And my favourite man made 'thing' that could be mistaken for something else if it wasn't so well documented:

Darvaz, the doorway to hell, a hole in the ground that has been burning for 35 years now: http://englishrussia.com/?p=1830

 

[realpaladin]

You make it sound like the crop circle phenomenon is modern. Or are you suggesting that such a motive is as pre-modern as crop circles?

Heh? There was graffiti found in ancient Egypt... there are cave paintings... what are you saying?