• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...


What the hell do you think we've been trying to tell you all this time?

Why do you exclude yourself from this truism?

And don't quote bloody Ramsay again, we have that one ticked off our cards about 50 times.


Which reminds me. Why does god hate shrimp?
 
Doc has edited a post to give us Winnie the Pooh 42.

xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | 22 | xx | xx | xx | xx | 27 | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
 
Buddhism must be the right religion, here is a Buddhist burning himself, hurting no one else in the protest of a war.





Paul


:( :( :(
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...


DOC,

Acts was not written by Paul. Paul is a character who shows up in that narrative; so the words ascribed to him are part of the narration, not his words directly. We have Paul's writing and we know what he said -- that Jesus was revealed in him. Paul most certainly does not speak of seeing Jesus on the road to Damascus. In fact, the story he tells contradicts what is related in Acts. But we don't even have to go that far because Acts relates this story three times and all three versions differ one from the other.
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...

I see a 27 in this post, too.
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but all we have is a 2nd hand account of what other people saw. hardly convincing.
Would you be convinced by a person who clearly had a seizure who claimed they spoke with Elvis and then explained that the other people with him saw elvis too?
 
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...
Doc, you should print that out and attach it to your monitor.

Sincerity is no measure of truth, and that applies to the NT writers, to the Apostles, to Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Christians, atheists - to any group or belief that you care to name.

People are willing to kill or be killed for all sorts of beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs true.

I for one am impressed that you seem to have finally grasped this fundamental point.
 
Akhenaten said:
Everything you say is circular in it's reasoning.

Everything.
Click to expand...
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.

2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.

3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.

4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.

5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.

6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
 
Last edited:
Agatha said:
Doc, you should print that out and attach it to your monitor.

Sincerity is no measure of truth, and that applies to the NT writers, to the Apostles, to Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Christians, atheists - to any group or belief that you care to name.

People are willing to kill or be killed for all sorts of beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs true.

I for one am impressed that you seem to have finally grasped this fundamental point.
Click to expand...

I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity withing 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.

2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.

3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.

4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.

5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.

6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...
but they tell s nothing about whether the NT writers told the truth.



We can add 12 one dozen and two little ducks 22 to the tally.
xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | xx | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
 
Last edited:
Lothian said:
but they tell s nothing about whether the NT writers told the truth.
Click to expand...

I disagree 1) 2) 5) and 6) are all non-circular facts that increase the likelihood the NT writers were telling the truth.

ETA

And actually 3) does also because it would be logical to believe that the Son of God's teachings would be the most moral and sublime in history.

ETA

And after thinking about it 4) does also because it would be likely that if Christianity was true it would certainly have the power to drastically change thousands of lives for the better.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...
Which is why in the third post of this train wreck, Hokulele said:
Hokulele said:
These are all reasons to believe the NT authors wrote what they believed was true, but it is not evidence that it was true.
Click to expand...


To believe that sincerity is evidence for something but not something else is to engage in special pleading.
 
DOC said:
I disagree 1) 2) 5) and 6) are all non-circular facts that increase the likelihood the NT writers were telling the truth.
Click to expand...

So you finally accept that Thomas Jefferson's opinion on Jesus's moral teaching has no bearing on whether the NT is true. Will you stop bringing this up now?

ETA: Ah, I see the moment of clarity has passed.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
If you wrote 13 chapters (Paul wrote 13 biblical books) in the greatest selling book of all time and were called a spiritual genius in a religious encyclopedia like Paul was, I might take a closer look at your claim.
Click to expand...

I don't think George Lucas could care one hootenanny.
 
This'll be good.


DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:


1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity withing 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
Click to expand...


How did we establish Jeebus' date of birth DOC?

In what way were Jeebus' biographers similar to Tiberius Cæsar's?

Do you like the diphthong? Kewl, eh?


DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...


How many of those 5 000 manuscripts actually cross-reference each other and how many were sourced independently?

Show working.


DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
Click to expand...


Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

3rd American president, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat. Deist, avid separationist.

Some Quotes


Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

- 1787 letter to his nephew


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

- Unknown


"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

- Unknown


"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter."

- letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820


"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

- Notes on Virginia


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

- Letter to von Humboldt, 1813


"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

- Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

- Letter to H. Spafford, 1814


"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."

- in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810


"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

- From Jefferson's biography


"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

"It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."

- various
​


DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
Click to expand...


Irrelevant non sequitur.

Also, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.


DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
Click to expand...


Piffle

You've been given the examples of Hypatia of Alexandria (and all the books) and Ishmael the Armourer, from Antioch. There are thousands of others. Don't make me name names. 'cos I will.


DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...


No. Just no.


You're quite right. Not all circular, but I did manage to trick you into spewing even more drivel with which to destroy your own arguments.

You should be more careful.


Now, what about the shrimp?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom