What about this crop circle?

[Stray Cat]

You seem to be more familiar with the crop circle issue than the average person. Have you seen this vid? Rob Irving and John Lundberg are in it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...603&ei=aM52S9nbIoTWqgKuj-3tBw&q=circlemakers#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...116&ei=aM52S9nbIoTWqgKuj-3tBw&q=circlemakers#

Yes tedious aren't they.... I mean interesting in small chunks but to sit and watch the whole thing.... ?

It was made in response to Grant Wakefield's film "Croppies"...

 

[Fnord]

Ha-ha, that's where you're wrong.

Evidence, please? I welcome any proof of psychic or psionic ability, and would even finance further research. But the proof, dear child, the proof is severely lacking (e.g., Non-Existent).

Psi is mostly unconscious, that's why it's so damn elusive and tricky.

Psi does not exist, that's why excuses for its existence are also so evasive and tricky.

Combine our collective unconscious psi with a holographic universe and presto!

Please provide evidence for the existence of the "Collective Unconscious", and a "Holographic Universe". The former is a myth, while the latter would require an energy source greater than the known universe to produce the known universe. And without repeatably valid evidence to the contrary, the Universe As We Physically Perceive It is all that there is -- it is entirely self-contained, and there is nothing outside. In fact, there is no 'outside' to contain such a generator!

You have elusive anomalies like UFOs and crop circles and remote viewing and missing time.

No, you have imagined that UFOs and crop circles are anything more than human or natural artifacts. Psi-based remote viewing is a myth, while CCTV is the reality. Missing time? Do you mean when someone claims to have no memory of what happened to them, and thus no other explanation for their actions and whereabout than some cock-and-bull story about space aliens and anal probes? We have only their word for it, and thus no repeatably verifiable evidence.

Face it, the only reason that Psi-based claims are so "elusive and tricky" is because all of the alleged events that they are based upon were either mis-interpretations of ordinary events, or complete fabrications of events that never happened.

 

[Fnord]

There's circles in crops,
ETs in the shops
and the Moon is a silver balloon.

And here at the forum,
with a lack of decorum
the sceptics just point and say 'Loon!'

Nominated!

 

[Akhenaten]

You're very kind. Thank you.

 

[Fnord]

In the interest of full disclosure, and to give my fellow skeptics a better idea of the kind of speculative literature that 'Limbo' is offering as 'evidence' for his claims...

Varieties of Anomalous Experience
Publisher: American Psychological Association (APA); 1 edition (July 16, 2004)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1557986258
ISBN-13: 978-1557986252
"Explores anomalous experiences, such as hallucinations, lucid dreams, alien abductions, mysticism, anomalous healings, psi events and past lives. Discusses current research and theories, individual and cultural differences, methodological issues, related psychopathology, aftereffects, and clinical implications. For basic and clinical psychologists." -- from the editorial review.

An Introduction to Parapsychology
Publisher: McFarland & Company; 3rd edition (February 1999)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0786406712
ISBN-13: 978-0786406715
"Consists largely of articles in periodicals, many dating from before 1980 and probably unavailable except in universities with a parapsychology department of long years' standing. Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title." -- from the editorial review.

Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality
Publisher: Paraview Pocket Books (April 25, 2006)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1416516778
ISBN-13: 978-1416516774
"Is everything connected? Can we sense what's happening to loved ones thousands of miles away? Why are we sometimes certain of a caller's identity the instant the phone rings? Do intuitive hunches contain information about future events? Is it possible to perceive without the use of the ordinary senses?" -- from the editorial review.

The Parapsychology Revolution: A Concise Anthology of Paranormal and Psychical Research
Publisher: Tarcher (January 31, 2008)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1585426164
ISBN-13: 978-1585426164
"Robert M. Schoch, Ph.D., a full-time faculty member at the College of General Studies at Boston University since 1984, earned his Ph.D. in geology and geophysics at Yale University. A graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill." -- From the editorial review.

Outside the Gates of Science: Why It's Time for the Paranormal to Come in from the Cold
Publisher: Running Press (May 30, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1560259868
ISBN-13: 978-1560259862
"Replete with eccentric characters, shadowy government programs, and one shocking discovery after another." -- from the editorial review.

Extraordinary Knowing: Science, Skepticism, and the Inexplicable Powers of the Human Mind
Publisher: Bantam; 1 edition (February 27, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0553803352
ISBN-13: 978-0553803358
"Mayer (the author), who was a psychoanalyst by profession, in this work recounts her journey, which involved collecting ESP anecdotes..." -- from the editorial review

The Intention Experiment: Using Your Thoughts to Change Your Life and the World
Publisher: Free Press; 1 edition (January 9, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0743276957
ISBN-13: 978-0743276955
"The Intention Experiment is an extraordinary advance in our understanding of consciousness as a field of all possibilities where intention orchestrates it own fulfillment. If you want to empower yourself and use the laws of intention to manifest your material reality, read this book." -- Deepak Chopra

Parapsychology and the Skeptics: A Scientific Argument for the Existence of ESP
Publisher: SterlingHouse Books (August 1, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1585011088
ISBN-13: 978-1585011087
"Chris Carter is a graduate of Oxford University in England with degrees in Economics and Philosophy. He currently teaches internationally." -- from "About the Author"

 

[Jack by the hedge]

In the interest of full disclosure, and to give my fellow skeptics a better idea of the kind of speculative literature that 'Limbo' is offering as 'evidence' for his claims...

Thank you Fnord. I must say you put in an awful lot more effort on Limbo's behalf than Limbo did in attempting to provide evidence.

So it appears that Limbo believes evidence for Psi is hidden somewhere in that booklist, though actually to describe the evidence is somehow too difficult. Oh well. <shrug>

 

[Limbo]

Yes tedious aren't they.... I mean interesting in small chunks but to sit and watch the whole thing.... ?

It was made in response to Grant Wakefield's film "Croppies"...

Just to clarify have you seen the whole thing? Or at least enough to see how a man-made circle is not necessarily a hoax?

 

[Fnord]

Thank you Fnord. I must say you put in an awful lot more effort on Limbo's behalf than Limbo did in attempting to provide evidence.

Actually, if you read some of the reviews with a skeptical eye, you'll see that I was not all that helpful to Limbo's case.

So it appears that Limbo believes evidence for Psi is hidden somewhere in that booklist, though actually to describe the evidence is somehow too difficult. Oh well. <shrug>

It seems more likely that he is caught up in the near-religious fervor that new believers have. If he would actually investigate the claims in each of those books, he might come away from it in a deeply disillusioned state.

I mean, c'mon! An anthology of Psi that was written by a geologist? Another that was written by an economist? Deepak Chopra claiming an 'extraordinary advance'? Collections of anecdotes and magazine articles? And one that is "Replete with eccentric characters, shadowy government programs, and one shocking discovery after another"?

Maybe the Easter Bunny recommended them to him.

 

[applecorped]

If he would actually investigate the claims in each of those books, he might come away from it in a deeply disillusioned state.

So, no evidence?

 

[Fnord]

So, no evidence?

He might come away disillusioned, but then again, he might come away even more deeply entrenched in his beliefs.

I might also point out that I found each of those titles listed at Amazon.com, and not in any reputable scientific journals, so any so-called 'evidence' they may have has not been vetted by those same journals.

You can also order most of them through Barnes & Noble under their 'New Age' category.

Enjoy!

 

[RayG]

What are you trying to say, they aren't legit?

RayG

 

[balrog666]

Hey! That was one of my best efforts!

It took 3 people and a lot of fishing line even after it was laid out the day before!

 

[Ladewig]

Creative and hardworking human artists + unconscious human psychic ability = complex crop circles that are 'man-made' yet not 'hoaxes'. No ETs or angels needed.

Ha-ha, that's where you're wrong. Psi is mostly unconscious, that's why it's so damn elusive and tricky. Combine our collective unconscious psi with a holographic universe and presto! you have elusive anomalies like UFOs and crop circles and remote viewing and missing time.

Are you saying that people make these crop circles without any planning, knowledge, or even memory of making them?

 

[skeptiform5]

More photos here: http://ccdb.cropcircleresearch.com/info.cgi?d=uk2002dl

Wait a second. Did you notice that at the top of the wesite one of the links is 'Spiritual Wisdom'. That just about sums up how real it is!

 

[Stray Cat]

Just to clarify have you seen the whole thing? Or at least enough to see how a man-made circle is not necessarily a hoax?

Yes I have.
I don't see crop circles as a 'hoax' anyway.

I also don't buy into Matthew Williams' notion of shadow people and such that puts the circlemaker at the center of the phenomenon.

It seems to me that the quite ambiguous nature of inspiration and motivation is being used as a paranormal explanation. If the circlemakers would just stfu and let the circles do what they were always intended to do there would be no need for this.

 

[Limbo]

Yes I have.
I don't see crop circles as a 'hoax' anyway.

I also don't buy into Matthew Williams' notion of shadow people and such that puts the circlemaker at the center of the phenomenon.

It seems to me that the quite ambiguous nature of inspiration and motivation is being used as a paranormal explanation. If the circlemakers would just stfu and let the circles do what they were always intended to do there would be no need for this.

Well at least you seem to see how. That's more than most people are capable of.

 

[Stray Cat]

Sorry, "seem to see how" what?

 

[Limbo]

See how a man-made crop circle is not necessarily a hoax.

 

[Stray Cat]

See how a man-made crop circle is not necessarily a hoax.

A hoax is only a hoax if a false claim is made.

For the vast majority of crop circles, no claims are made by circlemakers.
All the 'hoaxing' is entirely centered around the crop circle researchers who constantly make false claims about them, but the circles themselves are not hoaxes, they are anonymous and ambiguous pieces of art intended entirely for the audience to decide upon.

And the term "man-made crop circle" is slightly unnecessary, is there any other kind?

 

[Limbo]

A hoax is only a hoax if a false claim is made.

For the vast majority of crop circles, no claims are made by circlemakers.

Ok, I see where you're coming from.

I think it's in part two of the video that Paul Randles is interviewed.

"It was purely for our own research purposes. We found on that one, the rapeseed...very brittle, and with rapeseed you would always more or less snap it. As soon as you start pressing it down to the ground. And we also remember removing some of the really damaged crop. Taken with us and disposed of it.

And we saw later that when we looked at photos of that same circle that the rapeseed oil was actually perfectly bent. And wasn't snapped. Like it was when we saw it and made it. This was very sort of intriguing to us.

Almost like something had come and tidied up behind us." -Paul Randles

So in this case, Paul is making two claims about the circle. First that he made it, and second that "something" else was involved. So if both claims are true, is it man-made or not?