Are Tattoos Proof of a Nazi Genocide?

[I Ratant]

"It's not a True extermination program if people live to tell about it".

Can't argue with that.

.
ISTR something interfered with the completion of that program..
The crazies running Germany lost the war.
Then many of them killed themselves rather than face the music.
If only their modern day admirers would follow suit.

 

[Jonathan Harrison]

Well if those unfit for work were murdered immediately, that leaves 75? percent of the Jews left. In other words, most people 15-65 could work. So then we're supposed to believe that they were put into jobs to support the war effort, but it was a dastardly plan to starve them at the same time. What kind of work are you going to get out of people like that?

People survived, lived into a ripe old age, could display their Auschwitz tattoo, because there was no Auschwitz extermination plan.

If you bothered to read the literature, you would know that this contradictory policy was debated within Nazi circles, between 'productionists' and 'attritionists'. The conflict between wanting to kill the Jews and needing their labour had to go through complex political machinations. That kind of complexity is beyond you, because:

a) Frankly, you do not have the intellect to grasp it

b) You need to argue against Straw Men

 

[George 152]

Mathew Ellard wrote:

Demjanjuk didn't kill anyone because the holocaust is a myth. But besides that, Demjanjuk was allegedly at Treblinka and Sobibor, and they didn't tattoo anyone at those camps.

Dudalb wrote
Dudalb, that's just totally made-up. There was no "Vice President of Extermination."

And all The Gypsies, Jews, Homosexuals and others that the nazis didn't like just disappeared ?
Riiight.
I recommend the archives at Bad Arolsen though they will be like cematorium ashes in your mouth !

 

[Moss]

Do you acknowledge Jews conspired to takeover the comic book industry and brainwash the youth of America into wanting to go to war and fight Hitler and Nazi Germany?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Giftpilz

Title: Vermin
Caption: Life is not worth living When one does not resist the parasite, Never satisfied as it creeps about. We must and will win.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

DDT wrote:

They are victims, yes, but not proof of Nazi genocide. That they are alive and have a tattoo from Auschwitz, points to there not being an extermination plan. In a way, they're living proof of that.

Who asserted that they're proof of Nazi genocide? Short answer -- Holocaust Deniers. The OP asked a question knowing he would get a no as an answer. I wouldn't be shocked at all if he, or someone else here, took that no answer and extrapolated it into another "victory" for Holocaust Denial. You guys should try a tactic other than propping up strawmen that you can knock down.

We hear that the ones unfit for work were immediately gassed. So how then would one explain the footage of all the little kids pulling up their sleeves to display a tattoo? And if Anne Frank made the cut-off at 15 years old, to not be gassed at Auschwitz, then who did they kill? People over 65? And the rest were largely worked to death? What kind of quality work are you going to get from people being worked to death and starving to death? You want people in that state working on munitions?

The holocaust story just doesn't make sense.

You say that like Germany had a choice when it came to slave labor later on in the war, and for that matter it's known that they maintained a slave labor force before the war but in smaller numbers. By 1944 I'm sure most of the male skilled and unskilled laborers in Germany were serving in the military. Hell, you want a good example of that how about the defense of Berlin being left to old men and children conscripted by the SS? Add that to the fact that all of their allies were under fire from somebody so they had no other source of labor like they did with guest worker programs earlier on. And again, no one is claiming the Nazis sought to exterminate everyone through forced labor -- that's the Deniers propping up another strawman you're hearing. Many slaves of the Reich, certainly not most, probably had decent enough living conditions (for a slave) just to keep their source of labor maintained until they would no longer need them. Most were worked to exhaustion then left to die or hanged. Oh and Mittelbau-Dora had slaves assembling V-2 Rockets, so yeah slave labor on munitions must not have been that terrible.

And now onto your main objection. On January 17th, 1945 the SS at Auschwitz forced 60,000 of their victims to march to Bergen-Belson. Those who were too sick or injured to march were left at Auschwitz. There simply wasn't enough ammo to execute 40,000 human beings and still maintain control over their slaves on the march to Bergen-Belson. Of the 40,000 that were left there only 7500 survived the end of the war and only 20,000 survived the death march to Bergen-Belson. Any objection of this being an isolated case would ring very hollow indeed.

 

[Slimething]

Nazis are not beyond understanding. Change a couple of things and I'm fairly certain that America could be just as bad on as wide a range as Nazi Germany. Figure out what those things are, and you have an understanding of how it was done.



Thanks for demeaning the entire field of criminology. There are people who understand it.

Ummm...retrospective dissection of personality deficits and motivators are not understanding of the thought processes of criminals. Otherwise, one could explain why others with the same traits do not commit crimes and be able to predict when someone with said traits will commit crimes.

This is a derail anyway. Start a thread on this and see how many people agree with you that criminlogists today fully understand the criminal mind.

Thanks.

 

[Budly]

Jonathan Harrison wrote:

If you bothered to read the literature, you would know that this contradictory policy was debated within Nazi circles, between 'productionists' and 'attritionists'. The conflict between wanting to kill the Jews and needing their labour had to go through complex political machinations.

Really? I challenge you to provide the name of a document that shows this "debate within Nazi circles." And what would this dumb debate look like?

Dumb Nazi: kill them while they're working on the V2 rockets, so that they'll drop dead from starvation on the job.

Smart Nazi Well being that the V2 and other munitions factories are important for the war effort, and our troops rely on quality work in these factories, feed them well, treat them well, and then at the very end, kill them unexpectedly.

As if "Smart Nazi" wouldn't win out. The Auschwitz story: They killed maybe 20 percent upon arrival, then through attrition and lack of food while working, killed the rest.

What bunk. The holocaust is a giant myth! LOL. Woo-locaust.

 

[Jonathan Harrison]

secret letter addressed to General of Infantry, Thomas, Chief of the International Armament Department, dated 2 December 1941:

"Summarizing, it can be said that the kind of solution of the Jewish problem applied in the Ukraine which obviously was based on the ideological theories as a matter of principle had the following results:

"(a) Elimination of a part of partly superfluous eaters in the cities. "(b) Elimination of a part of the population which hated us undoubtedly. "(c) Elimination of badly needed tradesmen who were in many instances indispensable even in the interests of the armed forces. "(d) Consequences as to foreign policy -- propaganda which are obvious. "(e) Bad effects on the troops which in any case get indirect contact with the executions. "(f) Brutalizing effect on the formations which carry out the execution -- regular police." (IMT, 3257-PS)

Hitler speaking to Keitel and Zeitzler on 8 June 1943 at the Berghof-Extract from stenographic notes (1384-PS), IMT Red Series vol III, p. 959:

Here, I lose 500,000 Jews. I must take them away, because the Jews are the element of revolt. But in my area, actually, the Jews were the only tradesmen. Now they want to set up high schools and grammar schools, thereby build- ing here, a national Ukrainian state, that should in the future, fight against Russia. I am not even in a position to have the worker, who must work here, have his boots repaired. I can't do that because the tradesmen are no longer here. The Jews are all gone. What is more important, that I train the Ukrainians how to mend boots, or that I send them high schools so that they can build up the Ukrainian state?

Organization Todt (IMT Red Series 031-PS):

1. This action is not only aimed at preventing a direct re- inforcement of the enemy's military strength, but also at a reduction cf, his biological potentialities as viewed from the perspective of the future. These ideas have been voiced not only by the Reichsfuehrer of the SS but also by the Fuehrer. Corresponding orders were given during last year's with-drawals in the southern sector

Lammers to Himmler 17/4/43 (2220-PS):

That such methods not only undermine the people's willingness to work and the people's confidence to such a degree that it cannot be checked even with terror, is just as clear as the consequences brought about by a strengthening of the political resistance movement.

 

[Jonathan Harrison]

As if "Smart Nazi" wouldn't win out.

Smart Nazi wouldn't have invaded the USSR, nor would he have brought the US into the war.

Smart Yank wouldn't have invaded Iraq in 2003.

Smart Yank wouldn't have gone to war in Vietnam.

History is not made by smart people making the most rational decisions. It is made by people pursuing ideological agendas that often make them choose bad paths.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Really? I challenge you to provide the name of a document that shows this "debate within Nazi circles." And what would this dumb debate look like? What bunk. The holocaust is a giant myth! LOL. Woo-locaust.

Here are my first documents that indicate why you are making stuff up on the spot. Please explain this speech by Himmler where he argues against keeping jews in slave labour. I want you to analyse this HARD EVIDENCE in detail.

Himmler's October 4th, 1943 Posen Speech (Excerpts from existing recording)
I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. [quickly] "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter". [less quickly] And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. [mockingly] They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew. [a few people laugh] And ... [audience cough] [carefully] ... none of them has seen it, has endured it. Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 are there or when there are 1000

So he admits they are executing jews and that some gauleiters want to keep them alive for slave labour. But there's more......


We have taken away the riches that they had, and ... I have given a strict order, which Obergruppenführer Pohl has carried out, we have delivered these riches [carefully] to the Reich, to the State. We have taken nothing from them for ourselves. A few, who have offended against this, will be judged in accordance with an order, [loudly] that I gave at the beginning: he who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man. [less loudly] A number of SS men have offended against this order. They are very few, and they will be dead men [yells] WITHOUT MERCY!

But were the Nazi's telling everyone....Let's see what Himmler says.....

I want to also mention a very difficult subject ... before you, with complete candor. It should be discussed amongst us, yet nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them -- about which we have never spoken, and never will speak.

Are you aware that CODOH and IHR will not discuss this speech but not say why other than talk about "ausrotten" Why do you think "holocaust deniers" don't quote Himmler?

http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/himmler-heinrich/posen/oct-04-43/ausrottung-transl-nizkor.html

 

[Nick Terry]

Really? I challenge you to provide the name of a document that shows this "debate within Nazi circles."

• Hans Frank diary (aka Diensttagebuch) repeatedly through 1941-3
• Gater report on Warsaw ghetto in early 1941
• file of the Militaerbefehlshaber im Generalgouvernement, documenting faction fight between Wehrmacht and SS over Jewish labour in GG
• Numerous Himmler and other SS orders from 1941 to 1944
• Greiser's correspondence with Himmler and Pohl over the Lodz ghetto, 1943-44
• Numerous Pohl directives re: KZ system from 1942-44

those just off the top of my head. Really, you're only embarrassing yourself here. There are a slew of accounts which examine this very issue, the conflict between ideology and pragmatism, between labour and extermination, eg by Browning, Herbert, Gerlach, Aly, Heim, Gruner, Tooze, Pohl, Allen, Schulte, Orth, Musial, Seidel, Karaj, Alberti, not to mention it was examined in general accounts by Hilberg. Let me guess: you've read precisely none of these authors, which means you officially don't know what you're talking about. Your incredulity =/= scholarship.

 

[theprestige]

Jonathan Harrison wrote:

Really? I challenge you to provide the name of a document that shows this "debate within Nazi circles." And what would this dumb debate look like?

Dumb Nazi: kill them while they're working on the V2 rockets, so that they'll drop dead from starvation on the job.

Smart Nazi Well being that the V2 and other munitions factories are important for the war effort, and our troops rely on quality work in these factories, feed them well, treat them well, and then at the very end, kill them unexpectedly.

As if "Smart Nazi" wouldn't win out. The Auschwitz story: They killed maybe 20 percent upon arrival, then through attrition and lack of food while working, killed the rest.

What bunk. The holocaust is a giant myth! LOL. Woo-locaust.

Appeals to incredulity and authority noted.

When Budly can produce his credentials as an expert on optimizing returns from a slave-labor population during periods of resource scarcity, maybe his opinion will matter.

In the mean time, based on the piles of supporting evidence, I propose that Nazi war planners know a lot more about managing slave-labor populations than Budly ever will.

 

[dudalb]

Do you acknowledge Jews conspired to takeover the comic book industry and brainwash the youth of America into wanting to go to war and fight Hitler and Nazi Germany?

No, but I will acknowledge that most of the "Founding Fathers" of the American Comic book were Jewish.
Jack Kirby and Joe Simon.
Bob Kane,
Siegal and Shuster (who started the ball rolling with their creation of Superman)
Stan Lee
Will Eisner ("The Spirit")

And the list goes on.
They created the Comic Book as we have come to know it, and created characters that are beloved by generations of Americans.
Trust a Neo Nazi to turn this into a Jewish Plot.

 

[Budly]

It's just common sense: you don't try to "starve a worker to death" while he's working in a production line of a V2 rocket or if he's working in a chemical factory.

Thanks for the sources, I'll check them out. But I'll also be aware that documents can be faked, witnesses can be coerced.

The reason you don't hear a lot about the footage the Soviets took when they came into Auschwitz, is because they filmed a bucket of severed heads, which discredits their honesty. In other words they faked atrocities. Similarly the Americans in Psych Warfare planted stuff at Buchenwald: shrunken heads, supposed human skin lampshade. Considering that, are they above faking or altering paper documents, or recording documents, like the one Ellard asks about?

Mathew Ellard: If everyone in Los Angeles, California disappeared, were killed, would the evidence be a speech excerpt?

Harrison offers what appears to be trial documents. But they're a series called "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" that unless they were read into the trial transcript were not considered part of the trial. Many bogus documents can be found in this collection. However I haven't looked at the ones Harrison offers.

Direct question for Harrison and Terry: Have you seen the Soviet footage of Auschwitz that shows a bucket of severed heads? Do you think it's real or staged? If fake do you think faking paper documents would also be possible?

 

[Moss]

But I'll also be aware that documents can be faked, witnesses can be coerced.

ETA: Cue "Höss was tortured!" in 10, 9, 8... (Hint: if they wanted a specific confession, why didn't they make him do one without him talking about torture?)

 

[Jonathan Harrison]

So Budly can't address the quoted sources and has to resort to well-poisoning. What a surprise.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

It's just common sense: you don't try to "starve a worker to death" while he's working in a production line of a V2 rocket or if he's working in a chemical factory.

That's why we use hard evidence and not "Holocaust denier's "gut feeling"

Thanks for the sources, I'll check them out. But I'll also be aware that documents can be faked, witnesses can be coerced.

How was Himmler coerced infront of an SS audience on a recording that he ordered to be made?

Mathew Ellard: If everyone in Los Angeles, California disappeared, were killed, would the evidence be a speech excerpt?

No, it would be just like the holocaust, all the masses of complimentary evidence support each other.

Direct question for Harrison and Terry: Have you seen the Soviet footage of Auschwitz that shows a bucket of severed heads? Do you think it's real or staged? If fake do you think faking paper documents would also be possible?

Link us to this footage so I can determine which Russian team or group filmed this footage

 

[timhau]

It's just common sense: you don't try to "starve a worker to death" while he's working in a production line of a V2 rocket or if he's working in a chemical factory.

... which is a neat common-sense proof that nobody was ever worked to death.

 

[realpaladin]

The reason you don't hear a lot about the footage the Soviets took when they came into Auschwitz, is because they filmed a bucket of severed heads, which discredits their honesty. In other words they faked atrocities.

<snippety>

Direct question for Harrison and Terry: Have you seen the Soviet footage of Auschwitz that shows a bucket of severed heads? Do you think it's real or staged? If fake do you think faking paper documents would also be possible?

Hey Buddly-doo-dah...

You have failed to respond to this rebuttal to your video post.

You will find people on this forum are not too lazy to go back and look things up an link them back again.

Starting a post and then leaving Saggy to try and defend it by calling me names does not help your credibility Bub.

 

[Nick Terry]

Budly has credibility?