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Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

carlitos said:
Is the theory that these whatever-beings are living in between the human-occupied places, like in the middle of nowhere, on top of a mountain or under the sea?

Or is a situation where they are mixed in with our population centers, but we can't see them with our human eyes / cameraphones?

I'm being serious in asking, by the way.
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I would like to know how they would manage to share the Earth with us without leaving any kind of footprint. All species affect their environment in some way, and intelligent species affect it to a dramatically greater extent.

In perfect harmony with Nature, perhaps? I sort of doubt that, what with the laws of thermodynamics and all.
 
King of the Americas said:
JREF members,

Please accept my humble apology for the lack of civility I presented yesterday with my retort to "GeeMack". Regardless of what lies are presented about me or my stance, I should NEVER sink to such levels.

No excuses, I was WRONG, and it will not happen again.

I hope you don't hold that outburst against me for too long, although admittedly I deserve to be punished, beaten, suspended, or banned altogether. There's simply no room here for such behavior.

I ask now for your forgiveness and a modicum of understanding.

Yours Truly,

-King of the Americas
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Thank you for that. I will try to follow your example and keep it as civil as possible.
 
King of the Americas said:
JREF members,

Please accept my humble apology for the lack of civility I presented yesterday with my retort to "GeeMack". Regardless of what lies are presented about me or my stance, I should NEVER sink to such levels.

No excuses, I was WRONG, and it will not happen again.

I hope you don't hold that outburst against me for too long, although admittedly I deserve to be punished, beaten, suspended, or banned altogether. There's simply no room here for such behavior.

I ask now for your forgiveness and a modicum of understanding.

Yours Truly,

-King of the Americas
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You're usually pretty civil, at least from what I've seen. I think you behave yourself pretty well, considering how outnumbered you are by all the non-believers here.
 
carlitos said:
Is the theory that these whatever-beings are living in between the human-occupied places, like in the middle of nowhere, on top of a mountain or under the sea?

Or is a situation where they are mixed in with our population centers, but we can't see them with our human eyes / cameraphones?

I'm being serious in asking, by the way.
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Simply put, I just don't know...

I have no data from which to begin theorizing 'where' they exist, or by what means.

ETA:

I saw them before, so if they're consistent, I SHOULD be able to see them again, if they were close enough.

That said, there are plenty of places I, or we, can't see or fully investigate. I've read that we know more about the Moon's surface than we do about the ocean bottom. Then again, only a handful of people have ever 'seen' the dark side of the Moon...

Admittedly, I don't know.
 
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King of the Americas said:
Close.

I KNOW I saw something that I KNOW was beyond human capability.
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Well, that's a problem. You don't have any way of knowing that what you saw was beyond human capability. Human senses can be easily fooled, and perspective is a tricky thing. What appears to be a 90 degree turn from the ground isn't necessarily one. If a plane is flying straight at you, for example, and turns, you won't see any banking, you will just see it move straight sideways. Also, the images you see are not a direct reflection of reality, they undergo a lot of processing before your brain decides what it saw. By taking your final memory and counting it as fact, you are throwing away objectivity.
 
Marcus said:
Well, that's a problem. You don't have any way of knowing that what you saw was beyond human capability. Human senses can be easily fooled, and perspective is a tricky thing. What appears to be a 90 degree turn from the ground isn't necessarily one. If a plane is flying straight at you, for example, and turns, you won't see any banking, you will just see it move straight sideways. Also, the images you see are not a direct reflection of reality, they undergo a lot of processing before your brain decides what it saw. By taking your final memory and counting it as fact, you are throwing away objectivity.
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And YOUR problem is that you dismiss the fact that training can overcome such illusions.

I've watched airplanes of all sorts in all sorts of conditions. What I saw was NOT an airplane.
 
King of the Americas said:
And YOUR problem is that you dismiss the fact that training can overcome such illusions.

I've watched airplanes of all sorts in all sorts of conditions. What I saw was NOT an airplane.
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Again an argument from ignorance. You're using your limited knowledge of airplanes as support for your contention that what you saw was aliens.
 
King of the Americas said:
I can only say what they weren't...
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So how did your psychologist go about eliminating the possibility of delusions or hallucinations due to mental illness? How did your toxicologist eliminate the possibility of hallucinations due to toxins? Which magician gives you a clean slate on the possibility of optical illusions? And of course there are more. Unless you've had several professionals in several areas of expertise analyze your claim, you can't possibly say what they weren't. To attempt to do so is an argument from... now say it with me, King of the Americas... ignorance.
 
King of the Americas said:
GeeMack said:
Again an argument from ignorance. You're using your limited knowledge of airplanes as support for your contention that what you saw was aliens.
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Join Marduk...you deserve only to be ignored.
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Cut a little too close to the bone there, King of the Americas? Do you really want to know what your problem is, or are you happy just living with faith that you saw aliens and rejecting anything anyone says that might help you understand reality a little better? We're here to help, but we can't force you to learn.
 
You saw lights in the sky.
You assumed "craft".
Given craft, you assumed "they" as pilots.

You aren't the first and you won't be the last, but it really is an argument from ignorance. This is not an insult, merely an observation of a logical fallacy.
 
carlitos said:
You saw lights in the sky.
You assumed "craft".
Given craft, you assumed "they" as pilots.

You aren't the first and you won't be the last, but it really is an argument from ignorance. This is not an insult, merely an observation of a logical fallacy.
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That may well be.

However, I think it is just as ignorant to dismiss my report, out of hand.

I didn't JUST see 'lights'.

I saw a set of star-like objects move in concert with one another, perform maneuvers that broke with what was familiar aeronautical movement, and then do something impossible by modern human technological standards.

I may well be wrong to conclude 'craft', so I'll stick with object.

While my knowledge of human piloted aircraft is not infinite, to refer to my experience as "limited" is not accurate. If a student gets 98% of the questions correct, we wouldn't say he has "limited" knowledge of the test material. That'd be intellectual dishonesty, even if it was an accurate statement.

Thusly, I have seen 'most' American made airplanes in action. These 'objects' were vastly dis-similar to EVERYTHING I've encountered.

To suggest that my senses failed me is ignoring my experience in this field.

To suggest that I imagined or hallucinated the whole event is ignoring the fact that I have a clean mental health record, with no history of head trauma or inability to discern what is 'real' in my environment.

I understand fully that my recollections aren't 'proof' of anything, 'to you'.
 
But no one has dismissed your report out of hand. People have offered many possible explanations for it. That you don't like those explanations has no relevance.
 
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