Iran crackin' down...

[ZARDOZ]

And all I can reply with is "and?". So some random folks post some things and from that you want to draw such conclusions, invoking stuff like pre-WWII? It seems a rather large leap to me.

I don't want to draw conclusions from the top-recommended "Have Your Say" posts. That is why I started this thread. I am asking other Europeans from JREF what I wrote in my original post:

"...are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran?"

I ask this question because I want to hear from Europeans what their experience is... so that I DO NOT draw incorrect conclusions.

 

[Darat]

You are still going to get a very, very small sample that I would suggest is not representative of any "European view"; especially since this is an English language forum so the vast majority of Europeans will be excluded from even participating. Remember there are over 40 different countries that are included in the term "European", with a combined population well in excess of 400 million.

 

[Darat]

If you want my view (as me not as a "European") internally Iran is very unstable and the current regime is desperately trying to cling onto power. And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution.

 

[Thunder]

I think two things here:

1. Iran is most likely gonna "surprise" us by stating in a year or two that:

"we originally planned on having a only peaceful nuclear program, but now that the West and Israel is up our butts, we have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons to defend ourselves."

2. I think Israelis and some right-wing Jews are determined, at all costs, using any means necessary, to convince Europeans and Americans that "our enemy is your enemy", even though most Europeans and many Americans simply don't buy it.

Clearly, many Israelis and right-wing Jews feel that others are not sufficiently on their side against Iran. But its not OUR fault that Iran hates Israel. Nor should it be our burden to handle. If Israel wants to bomb the **** out of Iran, by all means.....go ahead. But just be sure to have the evidence to justify it, after the smoke and radiation clears.

 

[ZARDOZ]

And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution.

The Iranian I work with - (see my first post) - tells me that many average Iranians oppose the government these days. He says that the beatings, arrests and executions have polarized the intellectuals and young people. He says that additionally Ahmadinejad's regime never lived up to their internal economic promises either.. and that his poor performance on the international stage has hurt Iran economically - (which hurts Iranians economically.) And let's not forget the missing 35 billion in oil revenues...

http://www.meepas.com/Iran_Biggest_corruption_case.htm

In what appears to be the biggest case of corruption in post revolution Iran, and perhaps in the Middle East, the Tehran-based Shahab News reported that the chief auditing office of the Iranian parliament (Majlis) has revealed that close to $35 billion of oil income from the financial year 2006-07 is missing.

But my co-worker also cautions that there is a group of scary jihad-driven folks in Iran too.. That's the people that scare the heck out of me.. the ones attacking the Italian, French and Dutch embassies in Iran as I type this post.

 

[ZARDOZ]

Godwinning. Either denies the barbarity of the Nazis, or highly exaggerates the misdeeds of one's target.

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

 

[Darat]

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

I understand your point and I don't particularly disagree with the points of comparison you are making but using the Nazis as an example to compare against does tend to drag in a huge amount of additional baggage that often deflects from the point you wanted to make by using the comparison. As you can see happening in the thread right now.

I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made.

 

[Thunder]

I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made.

I wish, just once, someone would say:

"these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!"

 

[Cleon]

I wish, just once, someone would say:

"these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!"

Have you not been paying attention to the teabaggers?

 

[ddt]

Sorry but I did not use Nazi Germany to justify anything. I said it sounds like Nazi Germany.. how the Iranian regime is throwing opposition leaders into jail. Please stop with the strawmen which you are clearly trying to create with a blatant false claim.

I'm merely trying to find an explanation for your jump from internal politics to foreign politics.

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

Yes you are. Though the above analogies are fine, the Nazis are also and more famously known for starting World War 2 and the Holocaust. Why didn't you choose any of those regimes Darth listed?

Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah openly. They support insurgents in Iraq. That's Iran's foreign policy... using proxies. You can't sweep that under the rug ddt.

Sorry, you don't get off that easily. First explain your jump from internal politics to foreign politics. Why would a regime that's brutal to its own citizens be necessarily a threat in world politics? You introduced the connection in the OP, so first explain that one before introducing other factors.

 

[The Atheist]

There is nothing the Iranian Government will not do that The Athiest will not justify or explain away, apparently.

Not even close.

I don't support the regime at all.

On the other hand, I didn't support the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan either.

Let's look back to the deposing of the Shah. In the meantime, how many middle eastern countries has Iran attacked and how many USA/Israel?

Interesting that the Athiest justify Iran's action by saying they are threatned by their neighbors, but does not allow Israel the same justification.
The way he is going his next act will be justifying the 9/11 Attacks.

Shouldn't think so. I'll build my own strawmen if that's ok with you.

Odd that an atheist would jump to the defense of a totalitarian Islamic regime.

Only as odd as those that defend a miltaristic policy of invasion of sovereign states by a country which is on a different continent.

Disregarding for the moment your curious claim that fighting invaders constitutes "attacking countries in the vicinity", you may want to check your map. Iran is not "in the vicinity" of Iran by most non-astronomical uses of the term. And I'm sure you feel they're over armed, since they have been able to fend off 4 invasion attempts. Must really gnaw at you that Israel still exists, doesn't it?

Nah. I'd vote for Israel's continued existence anytime.

It's their policies of apartheid within and threats (and attacks) against other countries which bother me.

Just curious, how many times has Israel threatened to attack Iran's alleged nuclear facilities?

Israel has never attacked Iran, yet Iran has been financing, training, and arming insurrections against Israel for 30 years. And according to you Israel is the aggressor?

See above.

Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed.

Now, I certainly don't expect you to stop digging this hole for yourself. I eagerly await your next post to see just how anxious you are demonstrate to the whole forum your dizzying display of pretend intellect.

No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one.

See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed.

 

[portlandatheist]

Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway.

Conspiracy Theory Forum is that way ---------------->

 

[WildCat]

See above.

Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed.

Israel actually had good relations with Iran until the revolution. Then Iran immediately started fighting Israel by proxy. Israel has never attacked Iran, Iran has been attacking Israel for 30 years.

Iran is the aggressor, deal with it.

No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one.

See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed.

Actually I correctly assumed you have no clue as to the history of Israel and Iran and are ascribing 30 years of Iranian aggression towards Israel to Israeli concerns about Iran's nuclear program over the last 10 years or so. Pretzel logic.

You are siding with a theocratic regime which supports terrorism, hangs homosexuals, hangs and jails political protestors, kidnaps foreigners for propaganda purposes, and has attacked Israel for 30 years through proxies such as Hamas and Hezbollah. You then fault Israel for threatening a strike on Iranian facilities they suspect of manufacturing nuclear weapons?

Iran actually attacks Israel for 30 years: The Atheist says they're the good guys.

Israel finally responds with words: The Atheist condemns them and says they deserve everything they get.

That's some rational thinking there The Atheist.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial,

Parky, you might wanna put that thing away before you hurt yourself.

 

[Skeptic]

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial

I honestly consider a raven to be similar to a writing desk.

 

[Cuddles]

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial, because for the most part, behavior that in no way compares to the Holocaust, and folks who in no way compare to Hitler...are indeed likened to Hitler and the Holocaust.

That's exactly the kind of thing Hitler would have said.

 

[Thunder]

Parky, you might wanna put that thing away before you hurt yourself.

don't you have some research to do?

 

[Thunder]

Israel actually had good relations with Iran until the revolution.

forgive me, but don't you mean:

"Israel actually had good relations with the Iranian semi-dictatorship before the revolution."?

 

[ZARDOZ]

I'm merely trying to find an explanation for your jump from internal politics to foreign politics.

The combination of the funding of terrorism, and oppression of it's own people, makes Iran a potential threat. Once they get "the bomb" do you think Iran's current draconian regime would suddenly become the Mary Poppins of the Middle East? Or would a nuclear-armed Iran run by a draconian regime be a clear and present danger to stability in the region?

Why didn't you choose any of those regimes Darth listed?

Because I didn't realize that I needed to use Darth Rotor-approved list for my analogies while posting on JREF. Perhaps you or Darth Rotor could post a Darth Rotor-approved list of analogies acceptable for use on JREF and I shall review it. Meanwhile I used the analogy I used because of the answer I already gave - Gleichschaltung. It was the first thing that came into my head. Frankly I didn't write a PHD thesis on the similarities between Iran and Nazis so try to let go.

sorry, but on that topic its not possible to be "proven 100% wrong". You have my "benefit of the doubt" for the moment, lets see how you go....

Gee thanks. I am not 100% sure you're not something too. You have my "benefit of the doubt" for the moment as well, lets see how you go....

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ixeFBxfLzaSjs8Mb8cuFmtPOT6-wD9DOTHN01

Iran has convicted another opposition activist on charges related to the country's post-election turmoil and sentenced him to death, the judiciary said Tuesday, bringing to at least 10 the number of those facing the death penalty for the unrest following June's disputed presidential election.

The Web site of the Iranian judiciary said the opposition activist sentenced to death was convicted of Moharebeh, or defiance of God. The report also said that eight more people were sentenced to unspecified prison terms.

Wow... that sounds like:

Pinochet.
Idi Amin
Kim Jong Il/Il Sung
Franco
Various of the Sauds
Various General Secretaries of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union

DR

p.s. Don't mention "the war"

 

[WildCat]

forgive me, but don't you mean:

"Israel actually had good relations with the Iranian semi-dictatorship before the revolution."?

How is that relevant? For the last 40 years every US president has tried to get better relations between Israel and the dictatorships of Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia et al. Even succeeded in Egypt's case.

Are these efforts wrong parky? Are you opposed to the middle east peace process?