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Major Copyright Judgement

If it's crazy, you'd think it would be easy to mount a counter-argument.

How about the fact that you are calling people stupid and pathetic? You need to chill out.

ETA: Apologies, you called the argument pathetic, you called the person stupid twice.
 
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Words have meanings

And as we all know, since time immemorial the way we have determined the meanings of words is to ask ourselves "what did six out of nine supreme court justices say with reference to a highly technical legal ruling?"
 
Dude, why can't you just talk about copyright infringement and illegal downloading.

These contrived physical theft scenarios are becoming ridiculous.

Why? The argument is that it's not "theft" because no one suffers any loss. So, why is not o.k. to take a physical object if you ensure that no financial loss is suffered by the store or the publisher?
 
Why? The argument is that it's not "theft" because no one suffers any loss. So, why is not o.k. to take a physical object if you ensure that no financial loss is suffered by the store or the publisher?

I will entertain your "physical" analog, and fix it for you(no thanks necessary).

Given that I have almost zero disposable income on disability, lets first assume that I cannot afford this book.

Next we must take into account that I will not be physically removing this book from the bookstore, I do not have any reason to do that, or to leave money behind to cover the bookstore's losses; there is an anonymous man handing out free copies of the book to anyone who may want one! In fact, he has a machine which creates these copies for pennies worth of electricity.

Yes, I would accept the free copy of this book which was presented to me by this anonymous individual.
 
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I will entertain your "physical" analog, and fix it for you(no thanks necessary).

Given that I have almost zero disposable income on disability, lets first assume that I cannot afford this book.

Next we must take into account that I will not be physically removing this book from the bookstore, I do not have any reason to do that, or to leave money behind to cover the bookstore's losses; there is an anonymous man handing out free copies of the book to anyone who may want one! In fact, he has a machine which creates these copies for pennies worth of electricity.

Yes, I would accept the free copy of this book which was presented to me by this anonymous individual.

Ah, so the only price point at which you will ever agree to 'purchase' creative work is $0.

Well, that's your position stated pretty clearly. But why not assume, hypothetically, the situation of another person who would be happy to buy, say, a CD for $1, but thinks that $12 is too much money. Now, let's say he knows that the total money spent to produce that individual CD (disc, case, booklet) is $1. Does he have a right to walk into a brick-and-mortar store, pocket the CD and leave a dollar behind (or mail the dollar to the record store)? Why not? How would that differ in any way from what you do when you pirate music? He has the songs on a disc, no one has lost any money other than the potential lost sale of the disc (but then, he wasn't going to buy it for $12 anyway, right)? So, how is this in any way different?
 
No, I don't steal things. I wouldn't want someone to take something from me, so I do not take things from others. On the other hand, if I was a recording artist, I wouldn't really care if someone like me downloaded a song to which I own the copyright, so long as I wasn't uploading it to everyone else or further sharing it(I don't).

I don't feel bad for downloading media which will make my life much more enjoyable at no loss to anyone else.

What makes this painfully ironic is that Steam has a variety of games $5 and under. If I were to stick to playing only games that Steam has for $5 or less, I could easily have thousands of hours of entertainment. Netflix is available for $9 a month. Hulu has TV episodes available for free. Last.fm is available free for music.

All of these services are entirely legal. Pretending they don't exist is asinine.

Given this, a horrible sob story about how you life isn't enjoyable without $60 video games and the latest DVDs and newest albums (oh wait, Last.fm often has those, so, um... exactly the song you want on your hard drive?) just rings hollow.

Were I to get hit by a truck tomorrow and go on disability, I'd probably cut back certain purchases, and cancel others. But I could maintain a fairly good entertainment budget on $30 a month. And I'd be stealing from nobody.
 
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Given this, a horrible sob story about how you life isn't enjoyable without $60 video games and the latest DVDs and newest albums (oh wait, Last.fm often has those, so, um... exactly the song you want on your hard drive?) just rings hollow.

Were I to get hit by a truck tomorrow and go on disability, I'd probably cut back certain purchases, and cancel others. But I could maintain a fairly good entertainment budget on $30 a month. And I'd be stealing from nobody.

I explicitly stated that it was not a "sob story" I am really a very happy person. I wanted to explain my financial situation, and why I don't necessarily feel that it is immoral for me to download so long as I turn my uploads off and don't go sharing my files.

I am not hurting anyone.

I am not stealing from anyone.

I never said my life isn't enjoyable without these things, I said that it is more enjoyable with them.

What is your problem?
 
I explicitly stated that it was not a "sob story" I am really a very happy person. I wanted to explain my financial situation, and why I don't necessarily feel that it is immoral for me to download so long as I turn my uploads off and don't go sharing my files.

I am not hurting anyone.

I am not stealing from anyone.

I never said my life isn't enjoyable without these things, I said that it is more enjoyable with them.

What is your problem?
That there are plenty of legal alternatives that you don't even seem to be addressing.

My life would be a lot more fun if I stole a BMW. And robbed a bank. Hell, they're insured, they'd never miss it.
 
It has already been pointed out repeatedly that the gain on the part of the infringing party and the thief is not the single relevant point in such an analogy between physical and intellectual property.

I didn't say it did, either. I consider the loss for the owner to be part of it, too, as I said repeatedly.

Frankly, my own. I have brought this up before, as Funk knows. I am on disability and get about 700 a month to live on. I am raising a now 4 year old child and have almost zero disposable income. It isn't a sob story, I am really quite happy, but after I pay the bills and outfit/feed the kiddo I got nothin'. I can't even afford a legit OS (currently running a cracked win7).

I sympathise with your situation. However, I don't think the law makes exceptions for people who can't afford luxury. Nor should it. My previous example with my own pirating wasn't meant to say that I was right doing it. Lack of money was just an excuse.

Piracy, however, does have a benefit for the artist that we often overlook: publicity. A lot of games and stuff I own now have come to my attention because I managed to get my hands on it (or its predecessor) for free previously.
 
So these are the choices:
1. Want it: Buy it.
2. Want it: Download.
3. Want it: Do nothing.

2. and 3. "lose" the IP owner money.

I think you're missing the "don't want it" side of the equation.

2 and 3 prevent the IP from making profit, but at least 3 doesn't make use of their intellectual property all the same.
 
That there are plenty of legal alternatives that you don't even seem to be addressing.

My life would be a lot more fun if I stole a BMW. And robbed a bank. Hell, they're insured, they'd never miss it.

Why can't you stick to the topic of copyright infringement?

I am not stealing cars or robbing banks.
 
I sympathise with your situation. However, I don't think the law makes exceptions for people who can't afford luxury. Nor should it. My previous example with my own pirating wasn't meant to say that I was right doing it. Lack of money was just an excuse.

I agree with much of this. I am not anti-copyright, though I do think some of the damages that can be awarded are a bit... draconian. I understand why there are copyright laws, I even dare say that they make sense.

I simply don't think that I am morally in the wrong for violating these laws which are perfectly sensible in most cases. I understand that what I am doing is wrong, legally speaking.
 
No, I don't steal things. I wouldn't want someone to take something from me, so I do not take things from others. On the other hand, if I was a recording artist, I wouldn't really care if someone like me downloaded a song to which I own the copyright, so long as I wasn't uploading it to everyone else or further sharing it(I don't).

Let's be fair. If you made a living as a recording artist and made, say 60,000 a year, and knew that you could make 15,000 more if people would buy instead of copying your stuff, you might care.

I don't feel bad for downloading media which will make my life much more enjoyable at no loss to anyone else.

Well, forgetting that empathy makes _me_ feel bad about it, I think "loss" in this instance relates to money made vs money made if the person purchased the CD. It's not as if money dissapeared from the bank account, but it's still a net loss.
 
I agree with much of this. I am not anti-copyright, though I do think some of the damages that can be awarded are a bit... draconian. I understand why there are copyright laws, I even dare say that they make sense.

I simply don't think that I am morally in the wrong for violating these laws which are perfectly sensible in most cases. I understand that what I am doing is wrong, legally speaking.

So its only wrong when other people break these "perfectly sensible" laws. Gotcha.
 
So its only wrong when other people break these "perfectly sensible" laws. Gotcha.

That is not what I said. I feel that it isn't morally wrong to download something that you cannot afford, and would never buy in the first place. This is a moral argument, it is entirely subjective and we clearly aren't going to agree.

I didn't say that it is only wrong when other people break these laws. I clearly stated that it is legally wrong for everyone, including myself.

Are you trying to deliberately misrepresent my position?
 
That is not what I said. I feel that it isn't morally wrong to download something that you cannot afford, and would never buy in the first place. This is a moral argument, it is entirely subjective and we clearly aren't going to agree.

I didn't say that it is only wrong when other people break these laws. I clearly stated that it is legally wrong for everyone, including myself.

Are you trying to deliberately misrepresent my position?

I think it's morally reprehensible to put yourself in the position of making the judgment "oh well, I wouldn't pay for it anyway, therefore I'll take it for free." I cannot see any way in which that judgment cannot end up being self-serving and false.

If you chose to obey the law--without exception--would that mean that you had no entertainment at all? No--others have pointed out the myriad affordable ways in which you could listen to music and play computer games without breaking the law. But more importantly: can you honestly say that if none of this music or these games was available to you in pirated form that you would never buy any music or any games? I frankly do not believe it. There are some albums and some games that you would scrimp and save to buy. There are some other discretionary purchases you would cut back on in order to free up money for music and games (do you never, ever buy a restaurant meal or a cup of coffee? Never ever order in when you could cook yourself? Always buy the cheapest possible food and the cheapest possible products for the house? I frankly doubt it.) All that would happen is that you would have a smaller number of albums to listen to as you see fit or you would have to listen to a wider array of music that is not entirely available at your whim (e.g. LastFM).

In other words, you'd be like people were in the days before easy digital piracy, when you had to listen to the radio if you wanted easy access to music youd didn't personally own, and you had to save up to buy the LPs when you wanted to own them. Guess what, even back then people who were struggling to get by would slowly build up their record collections. And somehow they survived listening to the radio (even though radios played a far less personalized set of songs than you can get on Last.fm etc.). And it was possible for bands to make a living from the albums they sold.

And lastly: if you think it's perfectly acceptable to download pirated music, why don't you upload it as well? If the people uploading it are committing a moral (as well as legal) wrong, in your view, how can it not be morally wrong for you to profit from that action?

The fact is, nobody who illegally downloads music actually thinks that what they're doing is o.k. That's why they always try to come up with these bizarre and baroque justifications for their actions. It's also why they get so incredibly pissed off with anyone who simply and accurately describes what they're doing: stealing something that doesn't belong to them.
 

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