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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Dan O. said:
That's the way I heard it reported. The police want to get her in a relaxed talkative mood so they use the opportunity to discuss her flexibility and move into gymnastics and thus the cartwheels. So yes, the cartwheels were done while they were questioning her.

If they had taken Interrogation Methods 101, they would know to maintain the momentum of this athletic display and get her to start talking. As you keep pointing out, she is only a witness and doesn't have to talk to them. At any moment she could feel insecure being alone and call Raffaele. If that happens, they could both walk out and the next interview would be with the lawyers.

Is there any evidence that shows Amanda was not being questioned from immediately after the phone call up to moving into the interrogation room?




The only evidence we have seen supporting that is one witness who joined the interrogation around midnight. That witness didn't address the questioning that took place prior to her arrival. If you have something else, please provide it.
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No, that was NOT how it was 'reported'. That was a claim made by Chris Mellas, a claim he completely made up. The police asked her to do yoga and cartwheels to get her to relax for the interrogation??? Come on! I refer you to Amanda's own testimony on the stand, which you keep ignoring, where Amanda clearly stated in her testimony the cartwheels and yoga were of her own doing and were what she 'normally' did to relax, as has already been stated in this thread several times before and you've clearly ignored. Nobody asked her to do them. When she was seen doing them, she was told to pack it in.

If Amanda as a witness had refused to answer questions, then they would have made her a suspect.

The questioning began at 12.
 
In any case, wasn't the story that she had been doing some stretching in the waiting room and got flirting with a young police office about how limber she was and he asked her to assume all sorts of positions for him which she did. I don't recall any of this as being part of any questioning. Also, I've never understood claiming you were hitting on policemen while your roommate was lying in the morgue and your boyfriend was being questioned in connection with her murder is a helpful thing for her to say.
 
Dan O. said:
That's the way I heard it reported. The police want to get her in a relaxed talkative mood so they use the opportunity to discuss her flexibility and move into gymnastics and thus the cartwheels. So yes, the cartwheels were done while they were questioning her.

If they had taken Interrogation Methods 101, they would know to maintain the momentum of this athletic display and get her to start talking. As you keep pointing out, she is only a witness and doesn't have to talk to them. At any moment she could feel insecure being alone and call Raffaele. If that happens, they could both walk out and the next interview would be with the lawyers.

Is there any evidence that shows Amanda was not being questioned from immediately after the phone call up to moving into the interrogation room?




The only evidence we have seen supporting that is one witness who joined the interrogation around midnight. That witness didn't address the questioning that took place prior to her arrival. If you have something else, please provide it.
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Dan_O do you apply your mind to any of what you read? I assume you do

So: according to you the police asked her to do cartwheels as part of her questioning. Let us suppose you are correct. In that case the fact she was doing cartwheels can't have contributed in any way to a negative perception of her behaviour which led to suspcion of her. That was the claim which started this thread so presumably you believe there is nothing in that claim at all?

Can you cite this "Interrogation Methods 101" which advises the police to encourage cartwheels as a means of ......building rapport? does that phrase capture what you are trying to convey?

You are aware that several police officers told her it was inappropriate behaviour, I presume? How do you fit that testimony into your picture of what happened? How do you reconcile it with Amanda's own testimony?

What we have been doing here is trying to lay out what we can agree: and where there is disagreement show what facts/evidence/logic leads us to our conclusions. "That's the way I heard it reported" doesn't cut it.

That is one thing you have heard and I have heard. We have both also heard that she did this of her own volition because it is how she deals with stress. We have both heard the police told her to stop. We have both heard it generated suspicion because the behaviour was odd.

So how did you balance all of that and reach the conclusion you did?
 
Fiona said:
So: according to you the police asked her to do cartwheels as part of her questioning. Let us suppose you are correct. In that case the fact she was doing cartwheels can't have contributed in any way to a negative perception of her behaviour which led to suspcion of her.
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Do you mean "can't have", or "shouldn't have"?
 
Matthew Best said:
Do you mean "can't have", or "shouldn't have"?
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Are the police here supposed to be Jack Palance in the move Shane?

POLICE: "Do a cartwheel."

KNOX: "I don't wanna do a cartwheel mister, you'll tell me I'm behaving inappropriately."

POLICE: "Do a cartwheel."

KNOX: "Mister, I don't want no trouble, huh. I just came down here to to sit quietly and wait for my boyfriend. I ain't looking for no trouble, mister."

POLICE: "Do a cartwheel."

KNOX DOES CARTWHEEL

POLICE SHAKE HEADS MUTTERING ABOUT INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR

POLICE: "You all saw her. She did a cartwheel."​

Sorry if that comes across as taking the piss. The parallel between the two scenarios just struck me.
 
Let's put this nonsense to bed.

From Amanda's testimony on the stand:

FM: All right. We heard, and you gave testimony on this point, about your
behavior in the Questura, the cartwheel, the gymnastics, the stretching and
so forth.

AK: Yes.

FM: According to you, was this behavior appropriate, a normal behavior faced
with such a misfortune, or was this something special?

AK: According to me, each person confronts a tragedy in their own way, and I am
used to trying to find normality, at least my own normality, in situations
of difficulty. This is my way of feeling more secure, because I was feeling
really, really, really scared of what had happened, very shocked. I didn't
know how to face up to the situation, and for me it was surreal, but I
was obliged to accept the fact that it had happened, so my behavior -- yes,
I know that they are a bit lighthearted, but that's just how I am.

FM: But at that moment, were you scared, or grieving? Or both?

AK: I was so -- I was very disoriented.
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http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=17375#p17375
 
Dan O. said:
This is in dispute. We have the recording where she says that somebody wants to talk to her at 10:30. What do you have?
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Only by you Dan_o.

She doesn't say 'when' they want to talk to her. And clearly, it wasn't immediately since half an hour later she still wasn't being questioned, because at 11 PM she's doing cartwheels in the waiting room. Therefore, your 10:30 recording doesn't mean very much, does it?
 
Does any of this matter? What is the significance of them talking to her off and on over the course of an hour or so?
 
Fulcanelli is making a claim and I simply asked him to back it up after supplying evidence that counters his claim. It's only a minor issue that could easily be settled like many of the other issues if the evidence for both positions is laid out and openly discussed.


shuttlt said:
What is the significance of them talking to her off and on over the course of an hour or so?
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Amanda's testimony doesn't mention off and on questioning. Is there any other record of her activity before midnight such as calling other friends, taking a call from her mom who was arriving that night?
 
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Dan O. said:
Fulcanelli is making a claim and I simply asked him to back it up after supplying evidence that counters his claim. It's only a minor issue that could easily be settled like many of the other issues if the evidence for both positions is laid out and openly discussed.




Amanda's testimony doesn't mention off and on questioning. Is there any other record of her activity before midnight such as calling other friends, taking a call from her mom who was arriving that night?
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My source is the PMF Timeline, which in turn was sourced from journalist reports, judges reports, personal testimony, letters, diaries etc.

Amanda was doing homework in the waiting room, when she wasn't doing cartwheels. Why does this have to be proven with phone calls and the like? I've been known to not call or receive a call from someone for a whole day, let alone an hour.

And nobody is suggesting she was subjected to 'on and off questioning'. They started questioning her informally in the waiting room at 12 and and ended the questioning at 1:45 without a break in between. What's on and off about that?
 
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shuttlt said:
Does any of this matter? What is the significance of them talking to her off and on over the course of an hour or so?
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Because Dan_o is 'desperate' to revise the questioning to have begun as early as possible in order to reinforce his contention Amanda was pressured, abused, waterboarded...whatever. And when that is your aim, making an interrogation last 2 hours and 45 minutes, although it certainly doesn't suggest undue pressure, it suits the agenda somewhat better the 1 hour and 45 minutes. To that end, if Dan_o had his way he'd push the interrogation back to 10:30, as he tried earlier, in order to make it 3 hours and 15 minutes.
 
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on Ms. Knox's interrogation

Mr.D said:
What an odd note (whatever the context).

Thanks for the clarifications. Unless there any objections, I think we can banish the "fourteen hour continuous interrogation without food, water or restroom access" meme as a canard. (Maybe somebody embelished a story or miscommunicated something, but whatever the case, it really shouldn't be brought up again as it has no real relevance)
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Mr.D.,

On the subject of food, here is Amanda’s testimony:

LG: After all that, that whole conversation, that you told us about, and you had
a crying crisis, did they bring you some tea, coffee, some cakes, something?
When was that exactly?

AK: They brought me things only after I had made some declarations. So, I was
there, they were all screaming at me, I only wanted to leave because I was
thinking that my mother was arriving, and I said look, can I have my telephone,
because I want to call my mom. They said no, and there was this big
mess with them shouting at me, threatening me, and it was only after I made
declarations that they started saying "No, no, don't worry, we'll protect you,"
and that's how it happened.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=31515 (emphasis added)

Chris
 
halides1 said:
Mr.D.,

On the subject of food, here is Amanda’s testimony:

LG: After all that, that whole conversation, that you told us about, and you had
a crying crisis, did they bring you some tea, coffee, some cakes, something?
When was that exactly?

AK: They brought me things only after I had made some declarations. So, I was
there, they were all screaming at me, I only wanted to leave because I was
thinking that my mother was arriving, and I said look, can I have my telephone,
because I want to call my mom. They said no, and there was this big
mess with them shouting at me, threatening me, and it was only after I made
declarations that they started saying "No, no, don't worry, we'll protect you,"
and that's how it happened.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=31515 (emphasis added)

Chris
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Which would have been after 1:45. Not so long considering she arrived at the police station at 10:15 after just having dinner and refreshments. And not so bad since before being questioned, she had full access to the vending machines near the police waiting room.
 
Fulcanelli obviously cannot back up his (or PMF's) claim. If there really was backing for the PMF timeline he would be able to show specific references that support his point. Such references may exist and I am willing to accept a later start of the interrogation if they are produced and validated. But so far, the information we have at hand is consistent with a 10:30 start time and continuous till 1:45 when the first declaration is signed.
 
Dan O. said:
Fulcanelli obviously cannot back up his (or PMF's) claim. If there really was backing for the PMF timeline he would be able to show specific references that support his point. Such references may exist and I am willing to accept a later start of the interrogation if they are produced and validated. But so far, the information we have at hand is consistent with a 10:30 start time and continuous till 1:45 when the first declaration is signed.
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So the claim about her doing her homework is false then?

In March 2009 Perugia-Shock gives her version of events as:

Amanda explained from Capanne that on that evening at the police station, while waiting for Raffaele, she was doing her homework. After a while of sitting she was stiff, she stood up and did some stretching, leaning down with straight legs. There was a young guy from scientific police and he noticed that she could stretch so much. She told him she could go even more and showed him. He asked why she was so good at stretching and she explained she had been doing gymnastic when she was younger. So he asked her if she could do the other things, the cartwheel, the split, the bridge and she showed him.
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http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/amanda-knox-finally-admits.html

If her legs got stiff from doing her homework then she would surely have had to have been sitting there for quite a while. I suppose it could be that she's lying to account for the cartwheel.


On the 12th of June 2009 the BBC have her saying:
Earlier, she had told the court she was surprised when she arrived at the police station to discover that police wanted to question her about the murder.

"I was sitting on my own doing my homework when a couple of police officers came and sat with me," she told the court.

"They began to ask me the same questions they'd been asking me all those days ever since it happened.

"For instance, who could I imagine could be the person who had killed Meredith, and I said I still didn't know."
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8096980.stm

Still doing homework, but this time the police came and bothered her while she was doing her homework and no cartwheels.
 
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Unless these quotes are false, my reading is that she was doing her homework, got tired, did some exercises, went back to her homework and was then bothered by the police.
 
A couple more points we may be able to agree on:

10) Edgardo Giobbi claimed the investigators in this case were "able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reactions during the interrogations."

For the benefit of newcomers to this thread:


11) Scientific studies have shown that even experienced investigators are only slightly better than chance at detecting truth from lies and guilt from innocence.
 
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