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Magnetic reconnection and physical processes

Originally Posted by brantc View Post
If you had said electric field once then maybe it was a mistake but you said it twice so it has to be a lack up understanding.

We are talking about basically the z-pinch and variations thereof using the Bennett relation better known as a flux tube. The right hand rule.

Here is a good resource.
http://www.plasma-universe.com/Pinch...sma_physics)

Actually, Anthony Peratt did PIC simulations on plasma filament forces.
Section D.
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloa...att86TPS-I.pdf

So its not my theory, its just a description of a flux tube using known laboratory physics.
No we are not.
I am talking about magnetic reconection which is the topic of this thread.
You are talking about the z-pinch, etc. It up to you to show that this is exactly the same as a flux tube or sumething to do with magnetic reconection.

A current carrying flux tube will have a plasma column dominated by either a parallel or perpendicular magnetic fields. z-pinch, fluxtube whatever you want to call it. I dont care at this point. It is a column of plasma that is constricted by magnetic fields according to the right hand rule. This column travels in pairs as shown by numerous lab experiments and observations.

The reason those magnetic fields are there is because the plasma is moving. The reason there are magnetic fields in that region of space is because there is a plasma there. You will not find flux tubes in a region of space where there is no plasma.

Why is this important? Because it is necessary to know the correct setup for an experiment. This is the setup for reconnection in The Large Plasma Device.

This tells you why a reconnection happens. Its not a mystery.

The thing that blows me away is how as soon as you get into space you say the mechanism completely changes.

So once you understand that reconnections happen only in flux tubes, and that a flux tube is a current carrying plasma feature, then the rest is obvious.


The Bennett relation is not a flux tube. A z-pinch is not a flux tube.

I know that PIC simulations have been done in plasma physics for decades. Why are you surprised about it?

Can you show me the PIC reconnection simulations that have been happening for decades?? If they had I suspect we would not be having this conversation.

I showed you that webpage at LAPD where they are starting a project to do PIC in parallel with plasma reconnection experiments. I was gratified that somebody was finally going to get to the bottom of this.

Citing that paper of Anthony Peratt though is not wise since it is about his invalid plasma theory of galaxy formation.

Does that invalidate his simulations of plasma flux tubes? It shows the equations that he used.

I found this discussion of PIC vs MHD(really microscopic vs macroscopic).

Principles of MHD Simulation in Space Plasmas.
http://www.terrapub.co.jp/e-library/cssp/pdf/0133.pdf
 
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz
Explain then why this is. I'm all ears.

Sol and everyone seem adament that its all incredibly straightforward and everyone who is not sure are fools.
The basic principles can be simple whilst having detailed minutiae.

Here it is. The complicated explanation.

The reconnection takes places between a pair of flux tubes. The cause of the reconnection is current disturbances in the flux tube. This changes the gyroradius of the particles in the flux tube which changes the magnetic forces between them. This causes them to touch releasing a jet of particles accelerated by the pinch effect.

All the processes within this description can be broken down to basic principles of physics.. It has been experimentally produced in the lab many times.
The only thing that has a caused a misunderstanding has been the use of MHD to characterize it, and not saying the energy for the reconnection(magnetic field) comes from the particles(ions, electrons) themselves.

This will change after the experiments at LAPD.
 
IMO, the mathematical difficulty is irrelevant. That paper I cited earlier demonstrates that it can be done, and it can be done with relevant satellite data. A "magnetic rope" is nothing more than a current carrying plasma filament.

Obviously, that is your opinion, but ISTM that there are also magnetic fields involved at the very least.

You might read my response again too. Alfven specifically talked about boundary conditions and intentionally chose to use an E field orientation in all current carrying, plasma. He spends most of the first part of his book explaining the various reasons why that makes sense.

So Hannes A. had all the answers, never made any error in judgment, and can never be superseded or improved upon? How interesting.

The sun spews high velocity charged particles at over a million miles per hour. Nowhere in the solar atmosphere is Curl B = 0, and therefore the environment itself violates Alfven's conditional requirement.

TT is more likely to have an answer to that objection than I am.

Induction really doesn't have to account for hardly any of the actual energy transfer
.

Which is what I thought I remembered from others' postings.

Most of that energy release is directly related to the short circuit process between the two circuits. Any transfer of energy from the field to the charged particles themselves is properly called "induction".

Alright, let me ask a question about these "short circuits".

If we can assume that these "circuits" bridge the same two charged bodies, are many OOM longer than their widths or separation, and that they have similar conditions of composition, density, temperature, resistivity, &etc., it would seem to me that the potential difference at the point of intersection would be near zero, so that there could be little energy available to be released in the shorting, n'est-ce pas?. Please demonstrate what I have misunderstood.

I have dealt with electronics and electricity for over 40 years, and although I never studied Plasma Physics or became proficient in higher mathematics, I thought i grasped most of the fundamentals well enough. Am I missing something?

Both of them engage in personal attack rather than focusing on the issues/ideas being presented.

In DRD's case, I understand he has been debating you for many years on many other fora and has grown weary of your attitude, behavior, and debating tactics (he seems to have had you on 'ignore' for quite a while now, only commenting when you are quoted by others; I can't say I blame him). You may choose to don the cloak of innocence and pretend to be the wronged party, but to me that is pure disingenuity.

If you review a couple dozen of his posts, you'll find he almost always stuffs in the term "crackpot' or something aimed at the individual rather than the ideas being debated. The anti-EU crowd is nasty and they don't debate fairly.

Oh, I am aware of his recent postings. I also remember you reposting that graphic on the Casimir Effect so many times that I would clench my jaw every time I saw your name at the top of a post. What you seem to think of as "fair debate" seems to be limited to mindless repetition of whole paragraphs (cut and paste, much?) through dozens of posts, putting Scare Quotes around about every twentieth or so word (which comes across as unnecessary sarcasm), cloyingly cutesy phraseology, and, very deviously, implying indirectly (and repeatedly) that anyone not on your side of the argument is allied with some evil cabal, intent on subjugating all seekers of knowledge into supporting their deceptive doctrine, or dupes thereof.

All of that, repeated over and over, nearly verbatim, post after post, unrelentingly, until I have actually SCREAMED!!!

No, not the personal attacks. I'm certainly guilty of using loaded language at times to attack an "IDEA", but I don't run around as a rule attacking people the way DRD does, and way GM does. I can appreciate the fact I've worn people's patience thin, but only because they're attached to their own belief system, and ideas that are hard to empirically justify. Is that really my fault?

There 'ya go.

I
've been mostly ridiculing the *IDEAS* that the mainstream put's forth, not generally the people themselves. I do however have a bad habit of taking broad swings at times, but I have tried to attack idea rather than individuals.

Indeed an artful dodge. I railed a bit above; please don't continue the innocent act and force me to really tell you how I feel!

But this paper demonstrates that it can and does account for the energy. That belief of yours/theirs is simply false and has been demonstrated to be false.

Perhaps they can answer that.

Their nomenclature is completely incompatible with other branches of science. Why would someone intentionally chose a nomenclature that creates an oxymoron of a term like "magnetic reconnection"? Magnetic fields form as a complete and full continuum. They cannot and do not disconnect from other magnetic lines. Alfven clearly explained that "circuits" provide a more natural and scientifically compatible (with other branches of science) way of looking at the energy transfer process. We can call it "circuit reconnection" and be congruent with electrical engineering principles, or we can call it something it's not, specifically "magnetic line reconnection".

Well, I wonder how you, out of the tens or hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people who must utilize this terminology in their professional or educational endeavors are the lone (or certainly rare) voice making this complaint.

Why don't you write a learned paper, have it published somewhere respected, and sit back and wait for the accolades to roll in? Have you read "The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha "?

These are not simple magnetic lines. These are current carrying filaments in plasma. The current flow streams change their topology over time. The magnetic fields come along for the ride, but that topology change has nothing to do with individual field lines "reconnecting". There are charged particles inside the plasma that "reconnect". There are circuits that "Reconnect". The magnetic lines do not 'reconnect". Their nomenclature is both irrational and misleading.

As opposed to the E and B fields working in concert?

Whatever lights your fire.

Since their verbiage is inconsistent with other whole branches of physics, it makes more sense for them to change rather than the whole field of electrical engineering.

So, get with it, make them change, I'll eat popcorn and watch.:rolleyes:

Cheers,

Dave
 
Source for flux tube is formed by the energy of the particles flowing through it

First asked 4 February 2010
My impression was that a magnetic flux tube cannot be generated by an current flowing through it.
brantc,
Please cite your source (the textbook you found this in would be good) for "the flux tube is formed by the energy of the particles (current makes magnetic field) flowing through it"
 
Please cite your source for your assertion that all flux tubes contain plasma

First asked 4 February 2010
brantc,
Please cite your source for your assertion that all flux tubes contain plasma.

N.B. Coronal loop No citation though.
 
A current carrying flux tube will have a plasma column dominated by either a parallel or perpendicular magnetic fields. z-pinch, fluxtube whatever you want to call it. I dont care at this point. It is a column of plasma that is constricted by magnetic fields according to the right hand rule. This column travels in pairs as shown by numerous lab experiments and observations.
That is what I would expect a current carrying flux tube that is constricted by magnetic fields to behave like.

A pity that coronal loops do not travel in pairs (but wait ... they are current carrying flux tubes in your idea :eek:!)

The reason those magnetic fields are there is because the plasma is moving. The reason there are magnetic fields in that region of space is because there is a plasma there. You will not find flux tubes in a region of space where there is no plasma.

The reason that the magnetic fields other than the magnetic flux tube itself are there is because
  1. There is plasma in the flux tube.
  2. The plasma is moving in the flux tube.
The thing that blows me away is how as soon as you get into space you say the mechanism completely changes.
The thing that blows me away is how you are lying.
I did not say that space is different. Magnetic reconnection is demonstrated every day in labs.

So once you understand that reconnections happen only in flux tubes, and that a flux tube is a current carrying plasma feature, then the rest is obvious.
So once you understand that magnetic reconnection do not need flux tubes, then the rest is obvious.

Can you show me the PIC reconnection simulations that have been happening for decades?? If they had I suspect we would not be having this conversation.
Reconnection during the formation of field reversed configurations (1984)
Electromagnetic direct implicit plasma simulation (1987)
Kinetic simulation of magnetic reconnection in the presence of shear (1989)
etc.
Do you want the other 180 odd citations?

Does that invalidate his simulations of plasma flux tubes? It shows the equations that he used.
It does not invalidate the simulations themsleves. The results of the simulations invalidates the model that he used.
Anthony Perattdid not simulate plasma flux tubes.
Anthony Peratt simulated columns of plasma with a width of 35 kiloparsecs (100,000 light years) and a length of from 35 megaparasec to 3.5 gigaparasec (an average length of 350 megaparasec or 1 billion light years) and put a current from some unknown source through them.

I found this discussion of PIC vs MHD(really microscopic vs macroscopic).

Principles of MHD Simulation in Space Plasmas.
http://www.terrapub.co.jp/e-library/cssp/pdf/0133.pdf
Nice discussion of the situation in 1985.
 
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A current carrying flux tube will have a plasma column dominated by either a parallel or perpendicular magnetic fields. z-pinch, fluxtube whatever you want to call it. I dont care at this point. It is a column of plasma that is constricted by magnetic fields according to the right hand rule. This column travels in pairs as shown by numerous lab experiments and observations.

And still you have not explained to us how the plasma suddenly decides to make these big flux tubes in your "theory" of electrons flowing "straight" and "gyrating around a field that still needs to be created" etc. etc.

A flux tube on the sun, filled with plasma will get currents flowing along it due to shearing motion (read the papers that MM quoted, especially the O&M paper with the circuits, where this is specifically said). Then the currents will add their toroidal magnetic fields to the guide field, and twist it into a rope.

The main field, however, was created below the surface of the Sun, through dynamo action. Naturally, it would be silly to assume that the flux tubes would be generated completely current less, so they will most likely have a little twist when they pop out of the surface of the Sun and become visible.

However, in the laboratory experiments, by e.g. Intrator et al. (Nature-physics, 2009) two flux tubes, thus a pair, are generated on purpose, not out or necessity because, according to you, "this column travels in pairs" (whatever that may mean anyway).

The reason those magnetic fields are there is because the plasma is moving. The reason there are magnetic fields in that region of space is because there is a plasma there. You will not find flux tubes in a region of space where there is no plasma.

No, the magnetic field is generated BELOW the surface of the Sun. Unless you can show us specifically how these flux tubes are created in the atmosphere of the Sun, however, I already asked this question three or four times, and I only got an answer once, and that was nonsense. (described above by me).

A flux tube is a mathematical entity, you can easily have a flux tube in vacuum or in non-plasma gas.

Why is this important? Because it is necessary to know the correct setup for an experiment. This is the setup for reconnection in The Large Plasma Device.

This tells you why a reconnection happens. Its not a mystery.

What is "this" which "tells me why a reconnection happens?"

The thing that blows me away is how as soon as you get into space you say the mechanism completely changes.

But that is the problem, we DON'T say the mechanism completely changes. However, you have to look at the situation that you are looking at. In the lab it is easiest to create two flux ropes, with initial parallel field (as there is only one magnetic field generator). Then a voltage is applied and currents start to flow and two flux ropes are produced, which attract because of parallel currents. Then the two ropes get together and can touch and have oppositely directed field at the touching point. And this can lead to reconnection (although also a bouncing phenomenon has been noted Intrator et al., 2009, without reconnection).

Now, zoom in at the site where reconnection happens. Oppositly directed field pushed/pulled to eachother.
Then go to the dayside magnetosphere, when the solar wind magnetic field turns south, the magnetosphere field points north, we have oppositely directed field and reconnetion happens. This time not because of currents attracting eachother, but because the solar wind pushes its field against that of the Earth.
Then go to the magnetotail, a region of oppositely directed field separated by a current sheet. Something pushed on the tail, current sheet thins, opposite fields are driven together and start to reconnect, expelling before-non-existent plasmoids down the tail.

So once you understand that reconnections happen only in flux tubes, and that a flux tube is a current carrying plasma feature, then the rest is obvious.

Oh yeah, so obvious. Naturally, everything above could be described as "flux tubes" in some sense, but in the tail the current is flowing perpendicular to the field, in the solar wind there is NO current at all to start with, and only when the fields get ready to reconnect, then the processes start up for current flow along and perpendicular to the field.

Can you show me the PIC reconnection simulations that have been happening for decades?? If they had I suspect we would not be having this conversation.

I showed you that webpage at LAPD where they are starting a project to do PIC in parallel with plasma reconnection experiments. I was gratified that somebody was finally going to get to the bottom of this.

There are loads and loads of PIC papers on reconnection. You just have not taken the effort to look for them on ADS. Even better, as PIC can only describe small regions of space, because of computational limitations, efforts are now made to merge MDH (of various kinds) codes with PIC codes, where the MHD code describes the large scale physics and the PIC the details around the reconnection site.

Here is a paper by Semenov et al. (2009) about PIC and comparisons with analytical theory, which cites this list of papers where you certainly will find whatever your heart desires. And as Annales Geophysicae is open, you can even download the paper for free.
 
And still you have not explained to us how the plasma suddenly decides to make these big flux tubes in your "theory" of electrons flowing "straight" and "gyrating around a field that still needs to be created" etc. etc.

What do you mean? Even "mainstream" theory presumes that everything begins with 'current flow' somewhere under the photosphere. So what's the big mystery if a few current filament channels come up and through the surface of the photosphere?

I'd really like to hear your explain how a single coronal loops reaches millions, sometimes tens of millions of degrees Kelvin over a 6000 K photosphere. The "circuit/resistor" approach explain that heating process quite nicely, but you seem to have no way to explains that heating process via "magnetic reconnection', unless you've claiming the loop is "magnetically reconnecting" within itself!
 
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Obviously, that is your opinion, but ISTM that there are also magnetic fields involved at the very least.

Sure. There are also magnetic fields involved at the very least in electrical discharge in the Earth's atmosphere too. I still wouldn't try to describe the discharges process as a "magnetic reconnection event" only because the magnetic topology of the atmosphere changes over time.

So Hannes A. had all the answers, never made any error in judgment, and can never be superseded or improved upon? How interesting.

Well, that's a nifty strawman and all, but of course you said that, not me. :)

As it relates to the topic of "magnetic reconnection", yes, I think he was consistently right, and will continue to be right till the end of time. Empirical physics doesn't change with the wind. Keep on eye on tusenfem's explanation of the heating process involved in a single coronal loop. It should be rather revealing.

TT is more likely to have an answer to that objection than I am.

We'll see. He has a heating problem to resolve that a "discharge" takes care of quite nicely. Keep in mind that a circuit/resistor/discharge approach "explains' a single discharge loop reaching millions of degrees. In "magnetic reconnection" you need two or more of them to "cross over" one another to generate energy exchanges.

Alright, let me ask a question about these "short circuits".

If we can assume that these "circuits" bridge the same two charged bodies, are many OOM longer than their widths or separation, and that they have similar conditions of composition, density, temperature, resistivity, &etc., it would seem to me that the potential difference at the point of intersection would be near zero, so that there could be little energy available to be released in the shorting, n'est-ce pas?. Please demonstrate what I have misunderstood.

They wouldn't necessarily be near zero at the point of intersection in a discharge process. Once filament channel could have a higher voltage, a stronger current, etc, and they can cross at any location, in any which way, and still "reconnect" electrically. They will ultimately start that reconnection process through a "double layer", but the whole thing is going to be unstable. Electrons will simply take a path of lesser resistance. You could short circuit both circuits and release the magnetic energy of both circuits all at once.

The key difference IMO is that a "circuit/resistor/discharge" concept doesn't even require many if any of them to "reconnect" anywhere in the atmosphere . The "coronal loop" will still be heated by the "current flow' that that traverse the magnetic rope.

"Reconnection" between magnetic ropes is is definitely going to be rare compared to the "run of the mill" type of "coronal loop" that isn't "reconnecting" to anything except two points on the photosphere.

I have dealt with electronics and electricity for over 40 years, and although I never studied Plasma Physics or became proficient in higher mathematics, I thought i grasped most of the fundamentals well enough. Am I missing something?

When were taught that magnetic lines disconnect or reconnect *other than* in relationship to astronomy?

In DRD's case, I understand he has been debating you for many years

Yes, she's/he's slit my virtual throat on more than one occasion now.

on many other fora and has grown weary of your attitude, behavior, and debating tactics

At least I've never tried to virtually execute her! :) Talk about bad attitudes and crappy debating tactics!

(he seems to have had you on 'ignore' for quite a while now, only commenting when you are quoted by others; I can't say I blame him). You may choose to don the cloak of innocence and pretend to be the wronged party, but to me that is pure disingenuity.

Wait a minute. I'm not pretending to be completely innocent, but I'm not calling for anyone's head, I"m not trying to silence anyone, and I'm not out crusading against "empirical physics".

The only thing she continues to do is offer ridicule rather than answers. You won't for instance ever see her explain why a single coronal loop reaches tens of millions of degrees Kelvin. She leaves the "science" to others. Character assassination and virtual blood are her only interests in these conversations.

The Casimir debate isn't over, and it's important enough to "repeat myself' for as long as necessary till these folks "get it". Math is not the only kind of "knowledge" in the universe that matters. The "physics" is just as, if not more important when trying to setup math formulas and figure out proper limits. No "vacuum" has negative pressure, so no "vacuum" can pull apart a mass object. There's a very important principle here related to physics at stake and I don't care if you think it's "repetitive".

Perhaps they can answer that.

Perhaps not. We'll see. I'll be you never see an explanation as to why a single discharge loop reaches millions of degrees without "current flow" and "resistance" to that current flow.

Well, I wonder how you, out of the tens or hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people who must utilize this terminology in their professional or educational endeavors are the lone (or certainly rare) voice making this complaint.

Not really. Pretty much every EU proponent is a critic of what Alfven called "pseudoscience" and Alfven was actually for more harsh a critic than I am.

Why don't you write a learned paper, have it published somewhere respected, and sit back and wait for the accolades to roll in? Have you read "The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha "?

http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+mozina/0/1/0/all/0/1

I've been published in the Journal of Fusion Energy" and the "Physics of atomic Nuclei", but so far I'm still waiting. Shall I sit and twiddle my thumbs and wait forever? :)

As opposed to the E and B fields working in concert?

That's just it, they do work "in concert". The electrical current in the circuits create the magnetic lines they describe. The E field acts to heat the plasma and create the magnetic field. The magnetic field acts to "pinch" the current into "filament channels" that look like a tornado type filament you find inside an ordinary plasma filament.

It's only their notion of "magnetic reconnection' where no 'current flow" is supposedly necessary or primary in the process where they don't work in concert.

Whatever lights your fire.

Indeed. :) FYI these conversations are a blast for me, at least from my perspective. I'm enjoying myself.

So, get with it, make them change, I'll eat popcorn and watch.:rolleyes:

It's going to take awhile, so grab a beer, watch the game and relax. This is going to be more like a daily soap opera experience where you watch (and even participate) for years, more like an interactive "General Hospital", or "Days of our Universe" experience. :)

Cheers,

Dave

You too Dave. Enjoy your day.
 
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Here it is. The complicated explanation.

The reconnection takes places between a pair of flux tubes. The cause of the reconnection is current disturbances in the flux tube. This changes the gyroradius of the particles in the flux tube which changes the magnetic forces between them. This causes them to touch releasing a jet of particles accelerated by the pinch effect.

All the processes within this description can be broken down to basic principles of physics.. It has been experimentally produced in the lab many times.
The only thing that has a caused a misunderstanding has been the use of MHD to characterize it, and not saying the energy for the reconnection(magnetic field) comes from the particles(ions, electrons) themselves.

This will change after the experiments at LAPD.

No that's the "simple" explanation. The "complicated" version will begin as they try to explain a million degree coronal loop *BEFORE* they reconnect. A circuit/resistor approach explains that heating process extremely well, and very easily. Their version must require each and every filament to undergo internal "magnetic reconnection" evidently.
 
Care to take a crack at explaining the heating mechanism of a single coronal loop for us RC?
The heating mechanism of a single coronal loop is the filling of the flux tube with coronal plasma. (Duh :rolleyes:!).


The coronal heating problem is different. That is the problem that the temperature of the corona generally is millions of kelvins higher than that of the photosphere. There are many theories why this is so. The leading contenders are
  • wave heating and
  • magnetic reconnection in "microflares" in the photosphere.
 
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What do you mean? Even "mainstream" theory presumes that everything begins with 'current flow' somewhere under the photosphere. So what's the big mystery if a few current filament channels come up and through the surface of the photosphere?


"Current filament channels." You pulled that one out of your ass, Michael. :D

I'd really like to hear your explain how a single coronal loops reaches millions, sometimes tens of millions of degrees Kelvin over a 6000 K photosphere. The "circuit/resistor" approach explain that heating process quite nicely, but you seem to have no way to explains that heating process via "magnetic reconnection', unless you've claiming the loop is "magnetically reconnecting" within itself!


And not once, not in six years of blathering your pretended solar science all over the Internet, never have you done the calculations to show what sorts of current and resistance might be necessary to create the kind of heating you claim is happening. Do you really think that just saying so makes it true? Really? No evidence. No math. No physics. Just a flat out statement that it is true? And you call that science? Really?

Okay. Go for it. Do something you've never done in all your years. Explain it quite nicely using the "circuit/resistor" approach, quantitative, like real science. No pretty pictures allowed. You have an opportunity here to show people that you're not in grade school anymore. Show your work.
 
What do you mean? Even "mainstream" theory presumes that everything begins with 'current flow' somewhere under the photosphere. So what's the big mystery if a few current filament channels come up and through the surface of the photosphere?

But that is NOT what brantc is all about, he wants the loops to be created no under the photosphere.

I'd really like to hear your explain how a single coronal loops reaches millions, sometimes tens of millions of degrees Kelvin over a 6000 K photosphere. The "circuit/resistor" approach explain that heating process quite nicely, but you seem to have no way to explains that heating process via "magnetic reconnection', unless you've claiming the loop is "magnetically reconnecting" within itself!

I have never ever denied that there are currents flowing in the coronal loops, Michael Mozina, I even wrote this paper, where the plasma of a loop on the Sun is heated by the beam from a strong double layer and the return current it generates, until the Bohm criterion is violated and the double layer ceases to exist.

Now why is it that WE always have to do the work, MM? When are you ever gonna show us something for real. The only thing you can do is bitch about everything, give vague comments as "it's circuit reconnection" without any foundation (except for pointing falsely at Alfven), or claim that we "don't do circuits or electric fields" (when I show you the complete opposite) etc. etc.

It is time to get your hands dirty, MM, show us how you describe reconnection with circuits, and no the O&M paper was not an example of that, that was just about generating electric fields in loops. I want to see a complete circuit model of reconnection, presented by YOU, and no, claiming that "putting the MDH equations into the E "orientation"" gives you a circuit description does not suffice, then at least give the "orientation".
 
The heating mechanism of a single coronal loop is the filling of the flux tube with coronal plasma. (Duh :rolleyes:!).

tusenfem said:
I have never ever denied that there are currents flowing in the coronal loops, Michael Mozina, I even wrote this paper, where the plasma of a loop on the Sun is heated by the beam from a strong double layer and the return current it generates, until the Bohm criterion is violated and the double layer ceases to exist.

You two need to get your stories straight. FYI RC, the "loops" are very much "brighter" than all the surrounding coronal material. Why is that? Does resistance to current flow heat the loop, or not?
 
You two need to get your stories straight. FYI RC, the "loops" are very much "brighter" than all the surrounding coronal material. Why is that? Does resistance to current flow heat the loop, or not?
The heating mechanism of a single coronal loop is the filling of the flux tube with coronal (actually chromospheric) plasma. (Duh :rolleyes:!).

The heating mechanism of the plasma in the loop is different as tusenfem said. (Duh :rolleyes:!).

ETA
On the structure of solar and stellar coronae - Loops and loop heat transport Litwin, Christof; Rosner, Robert (1993)
We discuss the principal constraints on mechanisms for structuring and heating the outer atmospheres - the coronae - of stars. We argue that the essential cause of highly localized heating in the coronae of stars like the sun is the spatially intermittent nature of stellar surface magnetic fields, and that the spatial scale of the resulting coronal structures is related to the spatial structure of the photospheric fields. We show that significant constraints on coronal heating mechanisms derive from the observed variations in coronal emission, and, in addition, show that the observed structuring perpendicular to coronal magnetic fields imposes severe constraints on mechanisms for heat dispersal in the low-beta atmosphere. In particular, we find that most of commonly considered mechanisms for heat dispersal, such as anomalous diffusion due to plasma turbulence or magnetic field line stochasticity, are much too slow to account for the observed rapid heating of coronal loops. The most plausible mechanism appears to be reconnection at the interface between two adjacent coronal flux bundles. Based on a model invoking hyperresistivity, we show that such a mechanism naturally leads to dominance of isolated single bright coronal loops and to bright coronal plasma structures whose spatial scale transverse to the local magnetic field is comparable to observed dimensions of coronal X-ray loops
 
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The Hall parameter is a term in the generalized Ohm's law for the resistivity of the plasma ...

See the problem yet folks, especially you RC? You've got a discharge process going on inside the filaments, and between the filaments, and the resistivity of the current flow through the plasma is what heats the loops. Whether they "reconnect" or not, each loop can reach millions, sometimes tens of millions of degrees Kelvin. That's a "discharge" folks and can be expressed more effectively in terms of circuits and resistance to current flow.
 
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The heating mechanism of a single coronal loop is the filling of the flux tube with coronal (actually chromospheric) plasma. (Duh :rolleyes:!).

The heating mechanism of the plasma in the loop is different as tusenfem said. (Duh :rolleyes:!).

I've seen some pretty lame rationalizations before, but that one is right up there. :)

What's the heating mechanism that allows the loops (individually) to reach millions of degrees and sustain that temperature for hours on end RC?
 
I've seen some pretty lame rationalizations before, but that one is right up there. :)

What's the heating mechanism that allows the loops (individually) to reach millions of degrees and sustain that temperature for hours on end RC?
Ive seem some pretty lame misinterpretations before, but that one is right up there. :) . The Duh :rolleyes: seemd clear enough.

There are various heating mechanisms proposed to allow the plasma in the loops (individually) to reach millions of degrees and sustain that temperature for hours on end. Read a textbook on them.
 
See the problem yet folks, especially you RC? You've got a discharge process going on inside the filaments, and between the filaments, and the resistivity of the current flow through the plasma is what heats the loops. Whether they "reconnect" or not, each loop can reach millions, sometimes tens of millions of degrees Kelvin. That's a "discharge" folks and can be expressed more effectively in terms of circuits and resistance to current flow.
See the problem yet folks, especially you Michael Mozina?

MM:
Learn to read. The post is about Zeuzzz's misinterpretatio of a paper on simulations using Hall MHD.

Endlessly repeating your idea that electrical discharges are primarily responsible for coronal loop plasma heating without evidence is really ridiculous.
 

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