Major Copyright Judgement

[Folly]

Uh, okay. I tend to go hiking and swimming and stuff on vacation.

If it's horrible DRM because it stops people from playing it when they're on vacation in hotels without internet, um, sure...

While I'm sure you love swimming in the dark during the last few hours right before sleeping, never need a break, and never have to wait for anything to open in the morning, my wife and I often find that we end up with at least a few hours of unused time each day. We bring books and games with us, because pianos and big stacks of canvas don't travel well. I don't think we've gone on many trips where we didn't stop and pick up at least one new game before leaving. So, yeah, it's horrible DRM. For no other reason than the DRM, it requires internet access and I'll never buy it in that situation.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I dislike DRM because not only because it is annoying, but because it is an annoying precaution that does not work in preventing large scale piracy. It does affect different industries to different levels. Anything on the PC is more easily pirated than something that runs on a more closed system such as consoles. Games are easier to secure than music, pictures or text because more people are willing to use them under those circumstances. DRM that requires the internet is not a hassle when at home at my desktop but it becomes a barrier to playing on my laptop at work during my lunch break. Or at some family member's houses. Or during some form of mass transit. All of those are situations in which I would vastly prefer an offline game to a online game.

Also, here is a nice rant from a PC game developer about why piracy is not killing the PC game industry. Note that he does point out piracy does hurt specific games, and that it is hurting the genres that pirates like and driving developers of those genres to move to systems that are more difficult to pirate. http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512

A number of industries or at least genres within them are moving away from DRM because experience showed that catering to the prevention of piracy was worse than ignoring piracy. Bootlegging is an appropriate concern to any individual who works media, but I feel it is blown out of proportion.

 

[bigtim]

Uh, did you read the links? The maker of an award winning casual game is not having viable sales. And 95% of the copies running are pirated. He's currently porting it over to a console platform to make a good return. That's an award winning game.

Developers like Infinity Ward are moving to consoles because piracy is a concern for them. They cite these reasons. Do you think the reasons that major developers say these things is because they're stupid?

Sure, casual, $5 games are doing okay, because they cost nothing to make and might as well be written in Flash. Woohoo. Go PC.

More complex games like "And Yet It

 

[bigtim]

My biggest complaint about the games is they're all FPS or MMOs. It's irritating. No real games of strategy or resource management like their used to be. It's like they decided to use multiplayer as their new content instead of developing a really good game.

 

[Cynic]

Whether or not it creates more sales than it costs is a hotly debated topic. Some are beginning to say that we need to essentially ignore the pirates and create software for the markets that actually exist and not the ones we wish existed.

This thought is cyclic (like client- versus server-based architecture). First everything is open, then everything gets annoying copyright protection crap, then the annoyance begins to outweigh the easy at which pirates get around it, so then everything is open again. Rinse, repeat. This has happened since the 5.25" floppy was king and harddrives were things you paid extra for.

For the record though, requiring a stand-alone title to have constant internet access is obnoxious. Not everyone has or wants internet access everywhere they go.

 

[GreyICE]

I dislike DRM because not only because it is annoying, but because it is an annoying precaution that does not work in preventing large scale piracy. It does affect different industries to different levels. Anything on the PC is more easily pirated than something that runs on a more closed system such as consoles. Games are easier to secure than music, pictures or text because more people are willing to use them under those circumstances. DRM that requires the internet is not a hassle when at home at my desktop but it becomes a barrier to playing on my laptop at work during my lunch break. Or at some family member's houses. Or during some form of mass transit. All of those are situations in which I would vastly prefer an offline game to a online game.

Also, here is a nice rant from a PC game developer about why piracy is not killing the PC game industry. Note that he does point out piracy does hurt specific games, and that it is hurting the genres that pirates like and driving developers of those genres to move to systems that are more difficult to pirate. http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512

A number of industries or at least genres within them are moving away from DRM because experience showed that catering to the prevention of piracy was worse than ignoring piracy. Bootlegging is an appropriate concern to any individual who works media, but I feel it is blown out of proportion.

I've read that article, and it's interesting. But if you think the focus of it is that pirates aren't killing the PC game industry, you're wrong. It's an article targeted at developers, on how to make money while making PC games.

For a lot of developers, the conclusion has been exactly what he told them:

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.

But the problem is that pirates don't hurt just themselves. They hurt me too. I love PC RPGs. I love the depth possible, the massive, incredible spanning architecture, the toolset that lets users build addons and additions, the sheer complexity and scope possible.

I'm aware that I most likely will never see another one that is not an MMO in my lifetime. Because the developers who are successful have read this article. They don't develop for just the PC. And thus, one of my favorite genres has... changed. For consoles.

I can list the number of good RTS games since Warcraft 3 on the fingers of one hand. Company of Heroes. Dawn of War I/II. Oh hell, I ran out (and no, 4x games are not RTS games).

The next good one will most likely be Starcraft II. If that does in any under expectations (and this is Blizzard Entertainment creating the sequel to the most popular game ever) then the genre might just be dead.

It hasn't been blown out of proportion. The PC releases are an anemic bundle of jokes - casual games, console ports, and the occasional gem, usually from a Russian/Eastern European developer (seriously, the best PC RPG recently? The Witcher. A great PC RPG-like? The Void. They can't develop in our market).

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I am not arguing that piracy has not harmed the industry, but what I get from the article was that what is killing the for profit PC gaming industry are developers being obsessed with genres that garner glory more than focussing on games that generate profits. The article to me claims that developers are more concerned with critical acclaim than they are with profitability.I have not been impressed with the RPG fare of late either, but that applies to both PC and console markets.

Still, I am not convinced all of these markets would be thriving if piracy was not an issue. Gamers change in attitude and what they are willing to spend their time on. The change in demographic to casual gamers being the majority rather than the minority also changes the industry. Worldwide the Wii sold about as many consoles in Januaray as the X-Box 360 and PS3 combined. This holds true for US sales, and the Wii pulls further ahead for Japanese sales. In 2008 the top five selling console games were Wii Play, Mario Kart, Wii Fit and Super Smash Bro. Brawl and Grand Theft Auto IV (number 2).

I too dislike the focus on MMOs of late, but I do not begrudge the industry that focus because that is the sheer brunt of the profit in PCs. Profit that outwieghs any previous facet of the PC gaming industry.

In the end, I do not think super budget games have ever been the steady profit pounders some developers claim they would be sans piracy. In movies, making something that will be critically acclaimed and something that will generate huge profits are often conflicting goals. This is a reality that the gaming industry might need to come to accept as well. In order to support the critically acclaimed products that do not even generate the highest user bases (even adding in those who play pirated games), a company has to either supplement the income with less artistic fare or stick to a strick budget based in the realist profitability.

 

[Wildy]

Perhaps you live in an environment where internet connectivity is infallible and all-permeating. For those of us who don't, this sort of DRM is a real hassle.

Exactly.

Look at someone pitching a crying fit on this thread because the application wants an internet connection, in 2010. Like... really? Sure.

You don't care because you must have a reliable and fast connection. Tell my why I should be punished when all the pirates will do is just emulate the server on their own computer?

 

[Damien Evans]

Once again, how is this horrible DRM? It installs nothing on my computer, adds no running processes, it just pokes the mothership occasionally.

You have failed to explain what is so horrible about this. I really do not care if my copy of a game goes 'ping-pong' to the mothership now and then.

Are you saying you really don't get how not being able to play a single player offline game whilst offline is horrible DRM?

 

[Damien Evans]

My biggest complaint about the games is they're all FPS or MMOs. It's irritating. No real games of strategy or resource management like their used to be. It's like they decided to use multiplayer as their new content instead of developing a really good game.

http://www.totalwar.com/

 

[Travis]

Ahhh, this all takes me back to when libraries killed the book publishing industry.

 

[GreyICE]

You don't care because you must have a reliable and fast connection. Tell my why I should be punished when all the pirates will do is just emulate the server on their own computer?

Reliable? Yes. Fast? Who cares?

It's not exactly a terrible burden, I imagine 95-99% of the people will never even notice.

 

[GreyICE]

Are you saying you really don't get how not being able to play a single player offline game whilst offline is horrible DRM?

No, I really don't. Any modern machine is connected to the internet pretty much 24/7. I cannot remember the last time I used Steam in offline mode, it must be at least a year.

 

[Ambrosia]

I've read that article, and it's interesting. But if you think the focus of it is that pirates aren't killing the PC game industry, you're wrong. It's an article targeted at developers, on how to make money while making PC games.

The way I see it it's that developers don't understand how to beat Piracy that is changing the PC games market.

PC games are waaaaaay overpriced. The cost as I understand it to produce a quality game is comparable to the movie industry.

I can go see a film at the cinema that cost bazillions to make for a fiver. I can rent the same film on HD DVD for a fiver. I can buy the film a little later for about a tenner *At most*

If you want to buy a full price PC game here you're looking at £40+

There are PC's capable of running the vast majority of PC games in just about every household in the western world.

Consoles are becoming more popular because they are easy to use, and I can go rent the latest game for a fiver for a few days or I can buy a preowned game at a game shop for half it's original cost. I can buy a console to run the games on for a fraction of the cost of an equivalent PC (in gaming terms)

PC games need to re-invent their marketing IMO to make it much cheaper and easier to buy their products.

I love PC RPGs. I love the depth possible, the massive, incredible spanning architecture, the toolset that lets users build addons and additions, the sheer complexity and scope possible.

I'm aware that I most likely will never see another one that is not an MMO in my lifetime.

meh, the market will just evolve onto consoles, and now that lots of content is available to run from downloads you'll see games that are as complex on consoles having SDK's released to run on PCs I think.

I can list the number of good RTS games since Warcraft 3 on the fingers of one hand. Company of Heroes. Dawn of War I/II.

Red Alert 3? forthcoming CnC4?

 

[Wildy]

Are you saying you really don't get how not being able to play a single player offline game whilst offline is horrible DRM?

Clearly not. Maybe he doesn't know that PC games come in a single player mode.

Reliable? Yes. Fast? Who cares?

It's not exactly a terrible burden, I imagine 95-99% of the people will never even notice.

Any source for your numbers?

Also you didn't answer my other question. Why should I be punished because of some pirates?

 

[GreyICE]

Clearly not. Maybe he doesn't know that PC games come in a single player mode.

And maybe you don't understand that that wire with the flat rectangular plug coming out of the back of the computer is your internet connection

Any source for your numbers?

Also you didn't answer my other question. Why should I be punished because of some pirates?

Source? That's my estimate on the number of gamers who have an internet connection. That'd be most all of them.

And I fail to see how you're being punished. I actually doubt you're buying the game in the first place, you just read a news article on some website.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The way I see it it's that developers don't understand how to beat Piracy that is changing the PC games market.

PC games are waaaaaay overpriced. The cost as I understand it to produce a quality game is comparable to the movie industry.

I can go see a film at the cinema that cost bazillions to make for a fiver. I can rent the same film on HD DVD for a fiver. I can buy the film a little later for about a tenner *At most*

If you want to buy a full price PC game here you're looking at £40+

Your average PC game has a much smaller market base than the average movie. How many people saw the last really big movie, and how many people bought the last really big video game? If the costs are equivalent but the consumer base is 1/10 the size, then each consumer would have to pay 10x the price to equalize it.

 

[Cynic]

And maybe you don't understand that that wire with the flat rectangular plug coming out of the back of the computer is your internet connection


Source? That's my estimate on the number of gamers who have an internet connection. That'd be most all of them.

And how many of those gamers also own laptops and aren't always in their house? The point is, it limits the owners of those games. Would you by a music CD you could only listen to at home? There's a definite "where to they get off telling me how, where, and when I'm allowed to play a game I purchased" factor here that you seem not to be appreciating.

 

[Wildy]

And maybe you don't understand that that wire with the flat rectangular plug coming out of the back of the computer is your internet connection

So you honestly believe that single player games require a constant internet connection?

Source? That's my estimate on the number of gamers who have an internet connection. That'd be most all of them.

So in other words you've just pulled some numbers out of your arse.

And I fail to see how you're being punished. I actually doubt you're buying the game in the first place, you just read a news article on some website.

Are you accusing me of being a pirate, or did you just write that out wrong?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I know people who specifically pass on games because of online requirements. If someone has a primary gaming location in which even an unreliable internet connection is not available, this becomes an issue. Plus there are those small minority who refuse to buy products with such DRM on principle, but I imagine that is more rare than the video game media tends to state.

Steam took some heavy criticism at first, but their otherwise positive services and attempts to keep the situation as inobtrusive as possible earned some heavy turn around.

Piracy hurts sales, DRM hurts sales. Which hurts worse is of course speculation. The video game market has been growing quite heavily the past decade in this age of piracy (which is actually the entirety of video game history...) despite either of these and shows no signs of actually slowing in the next few years. As the market changes wise business leaders will adapt their business models to what is actually profitable.

Whatever solutions to bootlegging will be effective without being intrusive I doubt it will come from forcing the ISPs to play police anymore than forcing gas stations to play police will be the solution for bank robberies.