• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

American Medical System and Vioxx

Hold on a minute. What about herbal and homoeopathic remedies prescribed by doctors?

I might pull a 'no true Scotsman' argument on this one, since part of this discussion does rest on the distinction between medicine and SCAM.

On the other hand, there are 'treatments' other than FDA approved drugs, so it is also a statement which can be taken to apply only to a specific category of treatments which doesn't include homeopathic and herbal remedies.

Linda
 
It is the difference between asking if this is an example of something which has already been established to exist vs. asking whether this establishes the existence of something.
Which raises the question of how something becomes established to exist. As I understand your position, no matter how many of Cayce's clients did not improve following the conventional medical wisdom of that era, but then recovered following Cayce's treatments, that would not establish the efficacy of Cayce's treatments.

Since the requirement for FDA approval is safety and efficacy, 100 percent of the treatments a doctor prescribes are efficacious. But they may not be efficacious for an individual case.
Which was my point (along with the point that sometimes drugs like Vioxx are prescribed without knowing the risks).
 
Which raises the question of how something becomes established to exist. As I understand your position, no matter how many of Cayce's clients did not improve following the conventional medical wisdom of that era, but then recovered following Cayce's treatments, that would not establish the efficacy of Cayce's treatments.

That is correct. To claim otherwise would be committing a Post Hoc fallacy. Establishing efficacy requires rigorous scientific protocol (eg. randomly assigned, double-blind, controlled studies of sufficient population size/distribution to satisfy statistical assumptions--all replicated independantly).
 
That is correct. To claim otherwise would be committing a Post Hoc fallacy. Establishing efficacy requires rigorous scientific protocol (eg. randomly assigned, double-blind, controlled studies of sufficient population size/distribution to satisfy statistical assumptions--all replicated independantly).
I'm still trying to figure out the basics. What treatment?
 
Which raises the question of how something becomes established to exist. As I understand your position, no matter how many of Cayce's clients did not improve following the conventional medical wisdom of that era, but then recovered following Cayce's treatments, that would not establish the efficacy of Cayce's treatments.

That's not it. When patients recover following a treatment, when other treatments have failed, it stimulates the collection of the sort of information I referred to earlier in order to investigate the possibility that the treatment is efficacious. Cayce's purported 'successes' failed to stimulate the collection of this information, which tells us that, while the relevant information didn't survive to make it into Cayce's notes, those who were capable of recognizing whether anything unexpected was going on were unimpressed. I'm saying that it would be because Cayce's clients did not follow the pattern you outlined (no improvement following conventional medical wisdom, recovery following Cayce's treatments) that his treatments were not established as efficacious. If they had actually followed that pattern - no matter how many - they would now be a part of our armamentarium.

Linda
 
Yes, I understand that controlled tests have demonstrated the efficacy of certain treatments for certain conditions, but -- as you note -- in many cases the doctor does not even run the tests necessary to determine the specific condition prior to recommending a particular treatment. So, again, I inquire, for the average medical doctor, what percentage of the treatments that s/he prescribes would you estimate to be clearly efficacious?

Thank you, again, for showing your dismal lack of understanding of medical practice, or how the situation you described (treatment for a stomach bug) differs from the situation of positing a "cure" for a condition.

Can you not undertsnad the difference between symptomatic treatment, aka pallative care, and a cure? In these types of cases, it doesn't MATTER what specific condition they have. The doctor is providing something that works direclty on the mechanisms that cause a cough, or that cause nausea, or that cause congestion, without worrying about the specific, underlying cause, because it doesn't matter. He proscribes threatments that have been shown, through rigorous testing, to lessen the impact of fever, aches and pains, coughs, and similar symptoms. You're trying to compare recovery times to a lessening of symptoms. It's apples and oranges, and just goes even more towards showing how little you understand about medicine, modern or not.

And to answer the question, the symptomatic treatments do work (most of them, anyway). I'd say Tylenol, for example, is extremely effecious in treating fevers and aches and pains. Does it lessen recovery times of the underlying conditoion? No, it doesn't, but (important part here, pay attention) that isn't the point. The point is to lessen discomfort and allow a higher level of functioning, at which it is extremely good.

I'd say medical effectiveness is at least 90%, if you mean causing some improvement. The amount of improvement does vary based on numerous factors, and sometimes is slight. And some cases don't respond to such syptomatic treatments, because the underlying condition worsens (which is why there's always those admoniutions to come back oif the fever gets above such and such, or if the cough doesn't go away after so long).

In any case, I can GARAUNTEE that the effectiveness of modern medicine is much, MUCH higher than that of any alternative medicine you'd care to put in up against.
 
Last edited:
I'm still trying to figure out the basics. What treatment?

I haven't read about him in detail, but here's what Wiki says:

Cayce "cures": Cayce's medical readings typically prescribe poultices (often of castor oil), osteopathic adjustments, colonic irrigation, massage (often with peanut oil), prayer, folk remedies (e.g. charcoal tablets), various forms of electric medicine and patent medicines (such as Atomidine), and specific recommendations concerning diet and exercise. Cayce is often seen as a practitioner of holistic medicine, and has particularly strong philosophical ties with naturopathy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce
 
That's not it. When patients recover following a treatment, when other treatments have failed, it stimulates the collection of the sort of information I referred to earlier in order to investigate the possibility that the treatment is efficacious. Cayce's purported 'successes' failed to stimulate the collection of this information, which tells us that, while the relevant information didn't survive to make it into Cayce's notes, those who were capable of recognizing whether anything unexpected was going on were unimpressed. I'm saying that it would be because Cayce's clients did not follow the pattern you outlined (no improvement following conventional medical wisdom, recovery following Cayce's treatments) that his treatments were not established as efficacious. If they had actually followed that pattern - no matter how many - they would now be a part of our armamentarium.

Linda
Armamentarium? I'm duly impressed.;) I will grant you that it would have made sense in the Tommy House case for Tommy's father to have done a follow-up reading asking what Tommy's condition was and why the belladonna was efficacious. However, that may well have happened and we don't have a record of it because, prior to 1923, only a relative handful of Cayce's readings were preserved. Perhaps Dr. House was told in such a reading that his son's condition was a rare one, and that use of belladonna on another infant in a seemingly similar condition would not be generally recommended. We do know that Dr. House eventually gave up his medical practice to work with Cayce, which wouldn't seem to have made sense if House thought that Cayce had simply gotten lucky with his son.
 
Armamentarium? I'm duly impressed.;) I will grant you that it would have made sense in the Tommy House case for Tommy's father to have done a follow-up reading asking what Tommy's condition was and why the belladonna was efficacious. However, that may well have happened and we don't have a record of it because, prior to 1923, only a relative handful of Cayce's readings were preserved. Perhaps Dr. House was told in such a reading that his son's condition was a rare one, and that use of belladonna on another infant in a seemingly similar condition would not be generally recommended. We do know that Dr. House eventually gave up his medical practice to work with Cayce, which wouldn't seem to have made sense if House thought that Cayce had simply gotten lucky with his son.
I see a whole of excuses and a whole lot of nothing.
 
Armamentarium? I'm duly impressed.;)

I get in trouble for the way I talk in real life, too. :)

We do know that Dr. House eventually gave up his medical practice to work with Cayce, which wouldn't seem to have made sense if House thought that Cayce had simply gotten lucky with his son.

It also doesn't make sense that twenty years went by before House went to work with Cayce if he thought that Cayce hadn't simply gotten lucky with his son.

And I'm skeptical of the extent to which House was an impartial observer, given that he was a relative of Cayce's and had been involved with Cayce's readings prior to this episode. Other than statements from people whose best interests are served by misrepresenting the relationship between Cayce and House, do we have any evidence that House really represents the skeptical doctor persuaded by what he experienced?

Linda
 
It also doesn't make sense that twenty years went by before House went to work with Cayce if he thought that Cayce hadn't simply gotten lucky with his son.
Not necessarily. Sidney Kirkpatrick depicts House "as a highly respected general practitioner with aspirations to become the county health commissioner." He may have decided to play it safe until late in his career.

And I'm skeptical of the extent to which House was an impartial observer, given that he was a relative of Cayce's and had been involved with Cayce's readings prior to this episode. Other than statements from people whose best interests are served by misrepresenting the relationship between Cayce and House, do we have any evidence that House really represents the skeptical doctor persuaded by what he experienced?
First, Cayce wasn't directly related to House; rather, House's wife (Carrie Salter) was the aunt of Cayce's wife (Gertrude Evans). Second, Kirkpatrick states that initially House "looked upon Edgar's activities as entertainment, a mere parlor game." House was 42 when his son made his dramatic recovery, and so it's not as though he were a teenage father susceptible to a con man.
 
Not necessarily. Sidney Kirkpatrick depicts House "as a highly respected general practitioner with aspirations to become the county health commissioner." He may have decided to play it safe until late in his career.


You mean he only took up Cayce's nonsense after he had failed to become county health commissioner?
 
It seems to me that, for the average medical doctor, the percentage of the treatments that s/he prescribes that are clearly efficacious would be relatively small. For example, late yesterday afternoon I got hit by some sort of intestinal bug, and spent a fun-filled evening vomiting. (Yes, I know: It couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ;)) When this situation befalls my wife, she goes to our family practitioner and diligently follows his advice, including taking any medication that he prescribes (or recommends, if it's over the counter). I figure, why bother? I'll be fine in a few days, whether I go to the doctor or not. So, while my wife may be convinced that going to the doctor speeds her recovery, how does she -- or anyone else -- know?
They know, and the doctor knows, because those medicines have been objectively tested and shown to work. To be sure, lots of conditions will resolve on their own without intervention from any kind of medicine.

Actually, this is exactly the reason why various alternative practices are able to claim a lot of successful cures: Whether the stuff people get from the alternative practitioner works or not, most of the patients will recover in due time, and chalk up yet another 'victory' for alternative medicine.

Hans
 
There is a vague evolutional argument to the herbal remedies in that man has survived on the planet with millions of plants for near millions of years, so genetically the people that react badly to natural foods plants and drugs will be at a major disadvantage and people with natural tollerances would have survived to continue the population. Or die out temporarily, there were probably many evolutions and evolutions.

Modern medicine has been round just 100 years or so and we are not historically or genetically used to all these new chemicals. Even though the medication shows better results than natural the risk is modern drugs could cause potentially more serious long tem problems. The only fully long enough time scale study has been done over the last tens of thousands of years is fom vague, often anecdotal and hard to validate old accounts.
 
Last edited:
Not necessarily. Sidney Kirkpatrick depicts House "as a highly respected general practitioner with aspirations to become the county health commissioner." He may have decided to play it safe until late in his career.

First, Cayce wasn't directly related to House; rather, House's wife (Carrie Salter) was the aunt of Cayce's wife (Gertrude Evans). Second, Kirkpatrick states that initially House "looked upon Edgar's activities as entertainment, a mere parlor game." House was 42 when his son made his dramatic recovery, and so it's not as though he were a teenage father susceptible to a con man.

I'm not saying he was conned, only acting in his own self-interest.

Linda
 
...we are not historically or genetically used to all these new chemicals.

It may please you to know that the bulk of our pharmaceuticals come from natural sources.

Linda
 
It may please you to know that the bulk of our pharmaceuticals come from natural sources.

Linda

That is of course true, but they were only first synthesised and used in the last century whether derived from natural building blocks or not.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom