Magnetic reconnection and physical processes

[Reality Check]

Sources for the complete replacement of all MR events with electric stuff

No. Pwease can you explain this odd logic to me, I am only human.

Fixed.
There is no odd logic though. Just the need to understand what you read. Magnetic flux tubes are required for the magnetic reconnection model of solar flares. The quote from the paper you cited is about solar flares that can never be described using the magnetic reconnection model.

Merely mentioning the magnetic field does not make it wrong, assigning it (still unspecified!) energy releasing properties based on a geometric visualization is another matter completely, especially when viable electric explanations using hall currents, current disruption, ohmic dissipation and various other processes, that have definitive [falsifiable and provable] physical effects on particles and EM exist.

Unspecified?

Easy. Like everything else in the universe, magnetic fields have an intrinsic internal energy, and like everything else in the universe, magnetic fields seek the lowest energy state as spontaneously as they can. Magnetic reconnection is nothing more complicated than a change in the topology of the magnetic field, from a higher energy state to a lower energy state. The energy lost is transferred, probably by magnetosonic waves, to the plasma.

(emphasis added)

First asked 30 January 2010
Zeuzzz,
Please cite your sources for the "electric explanations using hall currents, current disruption, ohmic dissipation and various other processes", that explain all of the same phenomena as magnetic reconnection, e.g.

• The solar flares for which the magnetic reconnection flare model is valid.
• The activity in Earth's magnetosphere.
• All of the experiments in laboratories.
• etc.

 

[sol invictus]

So a magnetic field is now a physical thing then?

Got a picture of one?

If so this moment will go down in history as the first ever picture of a magnetic field, revealed by an annonymous poster on an educational foundation.

No one has ever seen a magnetic field.

Actually, Zeuzzz, no one has ever seen anything else.

 

[Reality Check]

What is your source for reconnection rate are set arbitarily in MHS simulations

The last post reminded me about a question that I have not seen answered yet:

Hi Zeuzzz,
I think that Tim would like a source for your assertion that the reconnection rate is set arbitarily in MHS simulations. A quick look suggests that reconnection rates emerge from the simulations, i.e. model parameters are set, the simulation is run and one thing you get out are reconnection rates.
For example this 1994 paper: What is the condition for fast magnetic reconnection?

So:

First asked 27 January 2010
Zeuzzz,
What is your source for your assertion that the reconnection rate is set arbitarily in MHS simulations?

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Have you got a picture of a photon Zeuzz or even a bunch of photons?

Daft question. Which you know.

[...]

I 'get' that you think it's a daft question.

Do you get that I - and at least several others - think it is not a daft question?

If you are willing to engage in a discussion of magnetic reconnection, and if you make claims concerning things which are "physical", about something you call "in reality", etc; if you insist on using your own, highly idiosyncratic understanding of textbook physics, then please, do those who try to engage in discussion with you on this the courtesy of answering their questions.

Zeuzzz, it's not that there's anything wrong with textbook physics; rather, it's that you have demonstrated - over hundreds of posts, in many threads - that you have your own, highly personal, understanding of that textbook physics.

Now if you are not willing to engage in a discussion, that's fine ... just say so (and I, for one, will ignore you henceforth).

 

[The Man]

Daft question. Which you know.

So is that a "No"?

Magnetic reconnection has never been observed. What has been observed by many people is large amounts of energy released from magnetic fields in which it was stored previously. Simple electrical and kinetic energy explanations have been ignored in place of hypostatized theories not based in reality.

You can observe it in your own home using objects you may already have. So magnetic fields can store energy. Please give the "Simple electrical and kinetic energy explanations" that "have been ignored" for the reconnection examples I have given.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Please give the "Simple electrical and kinetic energy explanations" that "have been ignored" for the reconnection examples I have given.

The passing of the kinetic energy of the photons in the magnetic field of one "circuit" to charged particles in another circuit is called "induction".

 

[Michael Mozina]

Actually, Zeuzzz, no one has ever seen anything else.

There is some truth to that statement. One of the difficulties of EU/PC theory is that while it is relatively easy to directly measure a magnetic field at a distance, it's not as easy to measure "current flow" directly. We can only "calculate" that number based on the strength of the magnetic field itself.

 

[Michael Mozina]

We were talking here about flux tubes, and all the field lines have the same direction here, so nothing whatsoever about reconnection. The current flowing along the flux tube will make the field lines twist.

But that same "current flow" that twists your "magnetic lines" into "bundles" also turns your "magnetic line" into a "circuit"!

If we observe a topology change between two flowing circuits how is that not "circuit reconnection"?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Here's the way I see things tusenfem...

If you get to call this topology change between two "magnetic ropes" a form of "magnetic reconnection", then it must also be true that such a process can also be described as "circuit reconnection" as well. You have current flow going through your "magnetic lines". They are "circuits" of flowing energy, no different than any ordinary plasma filament.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Your word play on "circuit reconnection" is just childish and does not explain anything at all,

That is pure baloney. The E field orientation of MHD theory is just as valid as the B orientation! You can't simply "prefer" one and ignore the other. Sometimes understanding the E perspective is just as important and even more important than looking only at the B orientation. It's good to know that an electrical "discharge" causes lightning, and it's not simply a "magnetic" event!

You can't simply ignore the E orientation of MHD theory because it scares you.

 

[The Man]

The passing of the kinetic energy of the photons in the magnetic field of one "circuit" to charged particles in another circuit is called "induction".

Again (bolding added)

Please give the "Simple electrical and kinetic energy explanations" that "have been ignored" for the reconnection examples I have given.

Please identify these ‘circuits’ for the reconnection examples I have given.

While your at it please explain how the energy is stored in the “photons in the magnetic field of one "circuit"“ and what causes it to then at some point be “passed” “to charged particles in another circuit”. Please be as specific as you can and even use as much math as you can.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Please identify these ‘circuits’ for the reconnection examples I have given.

Which specific example are you applying this idea to exactly? Be specific about which "things" (photons, magnets, ions, whatever) "reconnect".

 

[The Man]

Which specific example are you applying this idea to exactly? Be specific about which "things" (photons, magnets, ions, whatever) "reconnect".

As I said

...for the reconnection examples I have given.

Here are the examples again as you seem to keep forgetting.

MM, take a couple of refrigerator magnets (the flat rectangular business card or credit card company types), they have alternating north south stripes (generally running vertically). If you place two back to back and slide them across each other you will feel those magnetic stripes alternately repelling and attracting each other. When you feel it switching from resisting the sliding to that sliding being easier (and being pulled in that direction) that is magnetic reconnection as field lines from the stripes on one refrigerator magnet reconnect to the next stripes on the other refrigerator magnet. No “magic magnets”, just what magnets do and reconnection that you can experience in your own kitchen or home. You could do the same thing with a compass and a magnet, the compass needle being itself a small magnet. When the magnet is far from the compass the needle is connected to the earths magnetic field as you bring the magnet closer to the compass at some point the felid of the needle reconnects to that of the magnet and the compass points at the magnet. Move the magnet away from the compass and the field of the needle will reconnect to the magnetic field of the earth. Repeat as many times as you feel necessary until you stop believing in "magic magnets".

 

[Michael Mozina]

Magnetic flux tubes are required for the magnetic reconnection model of solar flares.

And those "current carrying" magnetic flux tubes are also known as "magnetic ropes". They carry "current flows" from one point to another. These currents can even create "z-pinches" inside those "ropes". These are current carrying filaments, large scale cousins of current carrying filaments inside an ordinary plasma ball. The "circuit energy" of both circuits will determine the outcome at the point of "circuit reconnection".

 

[Michael Mozina]

As I said



Here are the examples again as you seem to keep forgetting.

Which "things" (be specific) are you claiming are physically "reconnecting" and how specifically are they doing that?

 

[The Man]

Which "things" (be specific) are you claiming are physically "reconnecting" and how specifically are they doing that?

As you slide the refrigerator magnets the fields store some energy you put into that sliding as they deform and resist that sliding, Once the reconnection occurs some of that energy is gained back (as the field lines reconnect to a more direct configuration) by the magnetic stripes attracting in the direction of the sliding. In case you missed it that’s “energy conversion”. Much like a spring the magnetic fields of those refrigerator magnets store and return some of the energy you put into them in that sliding.

Again

Please identify these ‘circuits’ for the reconnection examples I have given.

While your at it please explain how the energy is stored in the “photons in the magnetic field of one "circuit"“ and what causes it to then at some point be “passed” “to charged particles in another circuit”. Please be as specific as you can and even use as much math as you can.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Again

Again you avoided identifying the actual physical things (photons, electrons, magnets, whatever) that actually physically "reconnect". You can't handwave at me TM. You'll need to physically identify the physical objects (magnets, photons, whatever) that "reconnect" and explain why they do that.

 

[Michael Mozina]

If you are willing to engage in a discussion of magnetic reconnection, and if you make claims concerning things which are "physical", about something you call "in reality", etc; if you insist on using your own, highly idiosyncratic understanding of textbook physics, then please, do those who try to engage in discussion with you on this the courtesy of answering their questions.

Er no. It's not a "highly idiosyncratic" understanding, it's a standard electrical engineering perspective. In electrical theory, magnetic lines form as a complete and full continuum, without beginning and without end.

The "highly idiosyncratic" understanding/verbiage comes from the "mainstream" because Alfven himself called Parkers "magnetic reconnection" a form of "pseudoscience". Alfven was an electrical engineer by trade and he knew damn well that magnetic lines do not "disconnect' or 'reconnect' to any other magnetic line. The "reconnection" is between two "circuits", not simply two magnetic lines.

 

[The Man]

Again you avoided identifying the actual physical things (photons, electrons, magnets, whatever) that actually physically "reconnect". You can't handwave at me TM. You'll need to physically identify the physical objects (magnets, photons, whatever) that "reconnect" and explain why they do that.

Yes I did repeatedly, the magnetic fields. Which we can physically measure and interact with. Let me guess you have a rather unphysical definition of physical. If you are going to claim that those field are not physical then you are going to have a hard time explaining how you claimed they can pass “the kinetic energy of the photons in the magnetic field” let alone store energy.


You have yet to even attempt to identify your ‘circuits’ in that reconnection “You can't handwave at me” MM you’ll need identify those ‘circuits’.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Yes I did repeatedly, the magnetic fields. Which we can physically measure and interact with.

Do you mean the photons that make up the magnetic fields are "reconnecting" in some way?

How does this in any way relate to solar physics and heating plasma to tens of millions of degrees? Can you "reconnect" your magnetic fields in a way that heats plasma to millions of degrees? Yes or no?