• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

Status
Not open for further replies.
The letter is referred to in the link I provided.

The release is nothing unusual: it is an integral part of the Italian system and I have given full details of that much much earlier in this thread

I have not forgotten: I have shown that Lumumba denies he ever said this. As reported in Italian newspapers and on Italian television, where they presumably understood what he was saying. Unlike the evening standard
 
Mario Spezi had worked on the Monster of Florence case for roughly twenty five years. After he had discovered that his car had been bugged but before his arrest Spezi wrote, “For more than a year, I have been the victim not just of half-baked police work, but of what could be said to be authentic violations of civil rights. This phenomenon—which pertains not just to me, but to many others—brings to mind the most dysfunctional societies, such as one might expect to find in Asia or Africa.”

When Spezi returned from prison, he told a gathering of journalists, “No, I’ll not deal with the Monster affair anymore,” he told one. “I’ll write books, but not about that.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder/6
 
This prosecutor seems to charge just about anyone who disagrees with him with slander and defamation.

Nice dodge. When you say "seems to" you can claim that you aren't actually saying anything at all. Either he does charge just about anyone who disagrees with him with slander and defamation or he doesn't. No "seems to" about it.

Disagreeing with a public official in Italy is no different than it is here. Slandering a public official is treated much differently there than it is in Canada (or the US or the UK).
 
The "Monster of Florence" case has nothing to do with this one. I have been doing a bit of digging around tonight and it seems that it is at least as complex as the one we are discussing and it is surrounded with a load of misinformation and dubious reporting too. I am not prepared to go into that in depth but I will say a few things about what I have found, as it relates to this thread.

I can find no evidence that Spezi was charged with murder at any stage. He appears to have been charged with obstructing an investigation; perhaps with planting evidence; maybe with calumny; maybe with withholding evidence. I cannot find the charge sheet. There is plenty of stuff in Italian: not so much in english. It may be that if we have any Italian speakers they will have more success

Spezi has indeed been "obsessed" with the case for 25 years or so. He wrote a book about it in 1983 which, unfortunately for him, was not hugely successful: unlike Thomas Harris's book Hannibal which was apparently based in part on the same case. There is no doubt that he was very knowledgeable about those murders and he was very keen indeed to solve them. Those of us who have participated in this thread may have some small inkling of how that could happen ;)

Far from being the voice of reason in this case Spezi seems to have believed early on that the murders arose from a rather bizarre "mafia type" operation involving Sardinians who lived in the area. There is a very strange story about what seemed to be the first kiliing (I think it was 1974) whereby this group of Sardinians, who allegedly indulged in unorthodox sexual practices including the sharing of the first female victim, became enraged when she had an affair with a Sicilian (not part of their group). Supposedly she and her lover were killed for this: and someone within that group inherited the gun and went on to kill the rest, presumably because he was bonkers in a different way. It should be noted that this gun has a distinctive flaw and has been used in all of the murders. Both Spezi and the police seem to have entertained this theory and Spezi continues to subscribe to it, so far as I can tell

Guitarri, one of the police officers involved was equally obsessed, it seems. As well as being a policeman he is also a best selling author, and he also had a book about this case. There is some evidence that he did indeed believe that there was a conspiracy of some sort involving respectable and powerful members of Florentine society. I do not know when he came to that conclusion and I do not know whether he seriously believed the motive was satanic. It would appear that he did think there was some ritualistic element.

So you pays your money and you takes your choice: Sardinian sex maniacs or Florentine satanists.

To me it is astonishing either way: but then I have no idea how Italians might view such notions. It appears that the satanic theory was also entertained by a firm of french private investigators employed by the family of the last victims (who were French) and also by the Italian secret service (neither of which claims I have found independent verification for: only one article I read mentions this).

What I do seem to see is two men who were both obsessed with a case which has all the appeal of Jack the Ripper (and we have seen the flights of fancy that has generated over the years) and both of whom were writers. Make of that what you will

The murders had stopped around 1985 and the police had no clues at all. In 1993 for reasons which are not clear to me they focussed on a suspect called Pacciano, an illiterate man who had served time for murder and was released in 1968. Coincidentally the year of the first monster killing. He had also been jailed in 1987 and 1991 for domestic violence and incest rape. Apparently he had told people he participated in satanic masses presided over by a doctor: whether this was the origin of Guittari's theory I do not know: but Guittari apparently did not believe Pacciano was smart enough to have planned the monster's crimes. At any rate, he was charged and convicted but there was no real evidence and his conviction did not stand. This whole episode is not to anyone's credit but it did give us Hannibal Lector, apparently. Two other men associated with Pacciano were later convicted and jailed: and that was where things stood in 1998. Pacciano himself died of a drug cocktail, bizarrely, before what would have been a retrial

I do not know what led to the re-opening of the investigation in 2004 but I think it was to do with the events surrounding Francesco Narducci. He was a Perugian gastroenterologist who was drowned in 1985 in odd circumstances. Orginally his death was presumed to be accidental (or a suicide) but in 1985 there was a protection racket in Perugia and some of the victims were threatened that they would meet the same fate as he did. So his death was reinvestigated at the instigation of a Florentine police official called Canessa and his body was exhumed. The forensic investigators said he had been strangled and from there it was hypothesised there was a connection with the monster killings: as the killer (because the murders stopped around the time of his death) or as part of the presumed group who organised the killings. At this time some further investigations into fresh suspects was undertaken and I am not sure how those people came under suspicion.

However that may be Mignini was asked to take the lead into the investigation of Narducci's death and that is how he became involved.

I can find absolutely nothing which suggests that Mignini subscribed to the Satanist theory which seems to have been in Guitarri's mind: but it seems to be true that Guitarri believed his investigation was being blocked. He presumably thought it was because powerful people were somehow involved. I have not been able to discover what Mignini thought but his focus appears to have been on police officers and journalists whom he thought were not helping.

Meantime Spezi pursued his own line of investigation/ research entirely at odds with the line the police were pursuing. And into this mess, in 2000, waltzed Douglas Preston, another writer. He wanted to write a thriller set in Florence and he was put in touch with Spezi as someone who could help with details about how the Italian justice system works. I have no idea why Preston decided to get involved with Spezi's agenda but he just impresses as hopelessly naive. I imagine the excitement got to him or somthing. In any case he and Spezi pursued this and they believed they had found the killer. I can imagine it is extremely difficult to decide when one should go to the police in these circumstance and there was no love lost between Spezi and Guittari. Nevertheless their behaviour seems at best reckless. Interviewing a man whom you believe to be a serial killer goes beyond journalistic zeal and is downright irresponsible in a foreigner newly arrived in the counry and with no prior knowledge of the case at all. It is "Boy's Own" stuff to my way of thinking. To continue after that interview (in which their putative killer allegedly threatened them ) on the word of an ex-convict who claimed to know where the gun was, and to go there, is insane. Yet when they get there the villa is closed for lunch so they dont get to look around? Go figure.

Preston claims that Guitarri suspected Spezi of complicity in the murders: he may well have done. He thought there was a conspiracy of respectable folk (however odd that is in itself). But he would also be aware of Spezi digging about and I do not know if he had an interest in this "villa"; or of the role of this "ex-convict" who was so intimate with a monster who had not been in jail.

What I am sure of is that the police were suspicous of Spezi and Preston in terms of obstructing/ misdirecting the investigation. And so they tapped Spezi's phone

Whatever Mignini's view of Guitarri's theory it seems likley to me that he thought Spezi was obstructive and Preston was an idiot. I think he had grounds for that belief. So on what I have been able to discover so far I am very willing to believe that he brought Preston to an appreciation that this was not a game: and he seems to have succeeded.

There is nothing to suggest he believed in satanic rites: or that he falsified evidence. Spezi has not succeeded in making a case for wrongful imprisonment. We will see what happens about the phone tapping charges on appeal. But on the basis of what I have learned I am not about to take either Spezi or Preston seriously.

In addition to the link I provided above and which I give again here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-01/the-other-murders-that-could-save-her/2/

This interview with Preston and Spezi is instructive, I think. See what you make of it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19333195/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports//
 
Last edited:
The "Monster of Florence" case has nothing to do with this one.

I know you're an avid if beleaguered researcher, Fiona, often doing work that others ought to be doing for themselves. I took a stab at that case and rapidly discovered I'd probably have to do more reading than I did for this one. That's the point at which it stops being a hobby for me and starts becoming real work, especially when I know that the truth will be hand-waved away. I am still reading through the 800+ pages of the Haloscans (Arial 10 pt after copying into Word) in my spare time to gain a better understanding of the timeline from 07 NOV to about 25 NOV 2007.

I would like Kestrel, halides1, and Dan O to acknowledge that "Monster of Florence" has zero to do with Meredith's murder and that, if we want to introduce it, to do so in a separate thread. I have few doubts that I would take the extra time to discuss it if it was kept separate and would be happy to read the available material to learn something.

I suspect it's inserted into this one to divert attention from the facts of the Perugia murder case and not because Kestrel, halides1 or Dan O are really interested in anything about it. I am looking forward to one of them starting a separate thread.

On the other hand, you've probably pwned the proposed thread here:

Spezi was obstructive and Preston was an idiot.
 
Thanks Fiona, I was reading up on "The Monster of Florence" because the phrase was popping up so many times on this thread and and other sources.

Anyone know if the allegation that prosecutors thought that the Kercher was murdered in a "satanic ritual" comes from this previous case?
 
Anyone know if the allegation that prosecutors thought that the Kercher was murdered in a "satanic ritual" comes from this previous case?
I believe there was some suggestion of it early on in this case. As far as I'm aware the only reason that has been offered is that that the murder happened the following night to halloween. The idea was dropped pretty early on on the advice of a judge at some kind of pre-trial hearing and hasn't resurfaced.
 
The "Monster of Florence" case has nothing to do with this one. I have been doing a bit of digging around tonight and it seems that it is at least as complex as the one we are discussing and it is surrounded with a load of misinformation and dubious reporting too. I am not prepared to go into that in depth but I will say a few things about what I have found, as it relates to this thread.

<Snip much valuable information. For brevity only>


Thank you very much for that, Fiona. As per your usual it was masterful, thorough, and even-handed. Much appreciated.

I had skimmed only the surface of the "Monster of Florence" saga as part of beginning to study the Knox case. I came to conclusions that your post has supported in much greater detail.

Regarding Douglas Preston, I have read his novels, and enjoyed them. For what they are. Novels. They all invariably are chock full of mystery, sudden plot twists, deceit and misbehavior by the powerful, conspiracy in both low and high places, and not a few hints at the supernatural.

The "Monster of Florence" story as presented by him could not have fit his m.o. more perfectly if he had written it himself.

:confused:

I guess you can see why I developed some issues of doubt.

It's always difficult to judge to what degree an author is emotionally and intellectually divorced from the content of their writing, and I'm sure that degree varies quite a bit. But if an author's style and pattern of content can be thought of as their "hammer" then the "Monster of Florence" must have looked just like "God's Own Nail" to Preston.
 
Anyone know if the allegation that prosecutors thought that the Kercher was murdered in a "satanic ritual" comes from this previous case?

There is quite a lot of discussion on this earlier in the thread, odeed. I am not sure where but I think some of it happened in earlier exchanges about Migninini and I think if you look for posts by ARubberChickenWithaPulley that might be a place to start.
 
There is quite a lot of discussion on this earlier in the thread, odeed. I am not sure where but I think some of it happened in earlier exchanges about Migninini and I think if you look for posts by ARubberChickenWithaPulley that might be a place to start.

I had a look around and found this post by ARubberChickenWithaPulley which quotes this article by Peter Popham which references the Il Tempo article 19 October.

All I could find from Il Tempo was this article in Italian by Marino Collacciani dated 19/10/2008 which I think is from the Il Tempo website. I cannot speak Italian but a crude Google translate does not bring anything about satanic ritual/rite involved in the murder in the article, though rite is mentioned in translated version but I think that is google translate algorithm/anomaly .

Also this post http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119 seems to dismiss that Mignini brought up the motive.
 
Last edited:
Fiona, that was a wonderful read on the Monster of Florence case. Thank you for taking the time to write it. Please do not think that I mean to belittle it in any way with this next bit.

This whole episode is not to anyone's credit but it did give us Hannibal Lector, apparently.

I knew this would happen sooner or later; it's Hannibal Lecter, & I hope not to be associated or confused with that character. When I was searching for a screen name, I decided on "lector" as a permanent reminder to myself that everything I know about this & other cases that interest me comes from reading about them. The idea was to help me maintain a properly skeptical stance. Sometimes it works. ;)
 
Last edited:
Dempsey interviews Preston

From an interview of Douglas Preston by Candace Dempsey

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp

My co-writer Spezi and I believe the Monster of span Florence is a lone psychopath. He killed seven couples, fourteen people. He mutilated the women and cut off their sex organs. Really horrifying. A psychological profile prepared by the American FBI of the Monster stated that he is a lone killer. All the Italian forensic psychologists stated he was a lone killer. And all the evidence gathered at the crime scenes pointed to a single perpetrator. But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses…

In the Monster case, prosecutors leaked evidence to the papers that turned out to be false. One of the cops working closely with Mignini on the Monster case was actually indicted for falsifying the tape of an interrogation…

You have no idea what it is like to be interrogated. It is a frightening experience. It is easy to break you down. Mignini interrogated me for two hours, demanding I confess to a crime I did not commit, and it was terrifying. He is a powerful interrogator. I could imagine what would happen to a 20-year-old who has been pressured for 14 hours. She could break down and say things, anything, just to stop the interrogation. They really browbeat you.
 
From an interview of Douglas Preston by Candace Dempsey

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp

My co-writer Spezi and I believe the Monster of span Florence is a lone psychopath. He killed seven couples, fourteen people. He mutilated the women and cut off their sex organs. Really horrifying. A psychological profile prepared by the American FBI of the Monster stated that he is a lone killer. All the Italian forensic psychologists stated he was a lone killer. And all the evidence gathered at the crime scenes pointed to a single perpetrator. But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses…

In the Monster case, prosecutors leaked evidence to the papers that turned out to be false. One of the cops working closely with Mignini on the Monster case was actually indicted for falsifying the tape of an interrogation…

You have no idea what it is like to be interrogated. It is a frightening experience. It is easy to break you down. Mignini interrogated me for two hours, demanding I confess to a crime I did not commit, and it was terrifying. He is a powerful interrogator. I could imagine what would happen to a 20-year-old who has been pressured for 14 hours. She could break down and say things, anything, just to stop the interrogation. They really browbeat you.
And her "gift" that was written when under no effect of coercion?
 
That interview makes me laugh when I compare it with the one I linked. Here is Mr Preston and his pal Mr Spezi facing up to a serial killer and challenging him to his face with that knowledge: here is Mr Preston and his pal Mr Spezi being threatened by that man they believed to be a psychopathic murderer, and yet continuing their investigations and interference in his affairs: and here is that same dauntless investigator asked some question for a couple of hours and reduced to tears and fleeing the country.

You could only make it up :D
 
And her "gift" that was written when under no effect of coercion?
Perhaps one had better define what one means by coercion. Mr. Preston was interrogated in a language that was not his native tongue, making his experience relevant to Ms. Knox's. The differences are that Mr. Preston has written for The New Yorker, Atlantic, and Smithsonian magazines, was more knowledgeable about crime, and had lived in Italy for more years than Ms. Knox. Despite these advantages over Ms. Knox, he indicated in no uncertain terms that he was cowed by Mr. Mignini to such a degree as made it sound as if he were lying (see also the article in The Atlantic magazine linked upthread).
 
From an interview of Douglas Preston by Candace Dempsey

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp

But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses…

Evidence that Mignini thinks anything of the sort?

In the Monster case, prosecutors leaked evidence to the papers that turned out to be false.

Evidence for this?

One of the cops working closely with Mignini on the Monster case was actually indicted for falsifying the tape of an interrogation…

You are aware that this charge was thrown out because it never happened?

You have no idea what it is like to be interrogated. It is a frightening experience. It is easy to break you down. Mignini interrogated me for two hours, demanding I confess to a crime I did not commit, and it was terrifying. He is a powerful interrogator. I could imagine what would happen to a 20-year-old who has been pressured for 14 hours. She could break down and say things, anything, just to stop the interrogation. They really browbeat you.

Mr Preston is a spoilt brat so far as I can tell. But he sure has face to save: he impresses as what we call in Glagow a "big wean". I cannot take anything he says serioiusly, but it is vastly entertaining.

Oh and there was no interrogation for 14 hours. And she was not under any pressure at all when she when gave them her "gift", as has been repeatedly pointed out.
 
Perhaps one had better define what one means by coercion. Mr. Preston was interrogated in a language that was not his native tongue, making his experience relevant to Ms. Knox's. The differences are that Mr. Preston has written for The New Yorker, Atlantic, and Smithsonian magazines, was more knowledgeable about crime, and had lived in Italy for more years than Ms. Knox. Despite these advantages over Ms. Knox, he indicated in no uncertain terms that he was cowed by Mr. Mignini to such a degree as made it sound as if he were lying (see also the article in The Atlantic magazine linked upthread).

You're referring to the "gift" that was written in her own hand, on her own time, with no nasty, brutish Italian Police meanies around, right?

Because, well, that's a pretty stupid question you asked me - on par with asking for a definition of "is".
 
Prosecutors routinely grab the first person off the street, beat a confession out of them*, then a corrupt judiciary sends them to prison. At least that's what I heard as the major tone in his concert.

*or use Jehdi mind tricks, not to sure on that.

Not far from the truth. Here is Edgardo Giobbi, the chief investigator in the Knox case, explaining how he was able to establish guilt:



We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reactions during the interrogations. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled us to get to the guilty parties in a very quick time.

This interview was before they figured out that Rudy Guede was involved.

At this point, Patrick Lumumba was still one of the guilty parties.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom