White vs Black - from an employment perspective.

[GreyICE]

Fair enough and I didn't mean to cause offence. FWIW I don't believe that The Atheist is making up the figures.

But why? Isn't being skeptical of unsourced figures posted in a sketchy manner by an anonymous poster on an internet message board pretty much the most natural thing in the world?

 

[The Atheist]

So why don't you use the more correct words?

Got any suggestions?

I'd happily stick to "non-white" if you like.

Is 'black' now the term for anybody who acts violently and lazy?

No, I know plenty of violent and/or lazy whites as well.

So what conclusions do you draw from this sampling?

Polynesians in unskilled work are far more likely to require chasing for child support obligations.

That's the only conclusion I'd be prepared to make so far.

Other interesting trends to cover.
Run groups who were breast fed vs formula fed.
Groups who attended pre-school vs those that did not.

Both are trends where African American communities, across class and income lines are at a disadvantage here in the states. What are the similar issues where you live?

Two things - there are no Africans, Americans or African-Americans amongst them.

I can't go asking personal questions to find out the information you mention. Pity, because it would be interesting.

So the black/brown people you work with are more likely to be violent in the workplace, more likely to get caught using drugs and don't pay their child support as much as the white people you work with and you find this "interesting" and wanted to share? Any you want people with a similar "interest" to discuss this here?

Do I have that right?

That's it, yep.

It's considered completely unfriendly to point this stuff out, which is why I'm pointing it out.

Yes, that is what I was asking. I was curious to see if sample size could explain it all (like if you had only 3 whites). I don't recall where you're located. Do you mind saying?

New Zealand. Numbers are above.

Honestly, it's TheAtheist here.

I'm skeptical his numbers were not even pulled out of his arse.

Why? There are clear problems with the Maori/Polynesian communities in New Zealand. Why can this not be discussed?

You're right to be sceptical.

On the other hand, a quick link through my profile to the website will give you my name, street address and companies I own. Since those details are available also from the New Zealand Government's own website, I'd just check rather than worrying about whether or not it's real.

But hell, that's just me.

...I am half-Samoan and half Maori. Yeah, there are problems. But Maori are different from Samoan communities and are different from Tongan communities and are different from Chinese communities. I have lived in New Zealand all of my life and this is the very first time I have ever heard anyone lumping Maori/Polynesians together as black. So yeah: if you want to discuss race issues in New Zealand I don't have a problem with it. But the turn-of-phrase used by the OP is so unusual I do not have trust that his figures nor his interpretation nor the agenda that lies behind it.

Well, I'm sorry about that, but it's written for an international viewing and I couldn't think of any way to describe it in a minimal number of words. "Brown" is probably more technically accurate and whatever I choose will be seen as pejorative, so I figured I'd just use a generic and well-known term.

I can't separate the "races" between Tongan, Samoan and Maori because we don't ask ethnicity quetions. As a Kiwi, I'm sure you'd know how such a request would be seen, and since I'm not going to guess, I'll go with what I have.

No offense taken at all.

...but the figures are outlandish. I have been involved in employing staff in the hospo industry for a very long time and they certainly do not ring true-especially as he has decided to lump in anyone with dark skin as black and apparently he/she does not have any Asian employees.

How many black employees do you have The Atheist? 86% of a very small number wouldn't be very statistically significant.

...and The Atheist, what colour do you classify Indians or Pakistanis? And dare I say it, what colour would you classify West Indians?

Indians and West Indians would also be classed as black, although I do know some white West Indians, who would be white.

Funnily enough, I don't have any Asian employees, but do have four Indians. Some people class Indians as Asians, but we don't generally here.

 

[banquetbear]

I can't separate the "races" between Tongan, Samoan and Maori because we don't ask ethnicity quetions. As a Kiwi, I'm sure you'd know how such a request would be seen, and since I'm not going to guess, I'll go with what I have.

...as a Kiwi I find it disturbing that you don't seem to see a difference between Tongans and Maori. You are apparently already collecting information based on ethnicity and it looks like you are using this information to analyse your workforce. How did you get that information? Was it on their application form? Are you using it to collect statistical data for EEO? Or did you just look at the names and decide they were black sounding?

You claim that...

We received notices for 86%, yes eighty-six percent, of black employees that we were to deduct child support from their wages. As of right now, we don't have a single black employee who is not having child support deductions taken direct from wages.

...yet later claim that:

Polynesians in unskilled work are far more likely to require chasing for child support obligations.

That's the only conclusion I'd be prepared to make so far.

Please make your mind up. If you want to talk about "black" people then do so. If your data is correct, then your conclusion should be that black people in unskilled work are far more likely to require chasing for child support, not just Polynesians. Is that what you meant to say?

My last job was at a recruitment/temp agency for an industry that is traditionally lower socio-economic that at its peak had over 500 people on its books. Without violating confidentiality I can state confidently that your findings do not ring true. You want me to believe that you have 78 Maori/Polynesian employees on your books: and all of them are having their wages garnished for child support. I don't believe you.

The burden of proof is on you. And if you dare attempt to supply proof I will be immediately on the phone to the Department of Labour. Which begs the question: you can't supply proof without violating the Privacy Act: so why did you post this?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Which begs raises the question: you can't supply proof without violating the Privacy Act: so why did you post this?

/pedant

 

[banquetbear]

/pedant

...sorry. Just an ignorant black here. Surprised I can even get on teh internet!

 

[quixotecoyote]

...sorry. Just an ignorant black here. Surprised I can even get on teh internet!

Don't worry. Stick with us white folks and you'll be fine.



Trust me.

 

[The Atheist]

...as a Kiwi I find it disturbing that you don't seem to see a difference between Tongans and Maori.

Are you suggesting I should be able to tell by looking at them?

Wow, you must teach me that at some stage!

You are apparently already collecting information based on ethnicity and it looks like you are using this information to analyse your workforce.

No, I've already said I'm not collecting information based on ethnicity.

I'm not analysing the workforce either - it was just noticeable that the vast majority of employees with brown skin had child support deductions from their pay so I did some actual checking. I was right.

How did you get that information?

No, I use an entirely unscientific way of checking. If a bloke has dark brown skin, Polynesian features and black hair, I class them as Polynesian/Maori.


Was it on their application form? Are you using it to collect statistical data for EEO? Or did you just look at the names and decide they were black sounding?

Please make your mind up. If you want to talk about "black" people then do so. If your data is correct, then your conclusion should be that black people in unskilled work are far more likely to require chasing for child support, not just Polynesians. Is that what you meant to say?

Aside from the four Indians, the terminology is interchangeable since all of the non-whites are either Pacific Islander or Maori.

My last job was at a recruitment/temp agency for an industry that is traditionally lower socio-economic that at its peak had over 500 people on its books. Without violating confidentiality I can state confidently that your findings do not ring true. You want me to believe that you have 78 Maori/Polynesian employees on your books: and all of them are having their wages garnished for child support. I don't believe you.

That's fine - it's not as though I need anyone to believe it.

I will note that we only have 12 currently on the books - I did state that it referred to employees "we have had" over the past year. As you'd be aware, that kind of job has a high turnover.

I'm assuming you were the wages clerk for the temp agency as you know whether orders were in place or not?

 

[drkitten]

/pedant

And an incorrect pedant as well. "Begs the question" in the sense of "raises" is completely acceptable. See the Cambridge Idioms dictionary or the Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms. In both instances, it's not only an acceptable usage, but listed as the primary one.

 

[shemp]

Oh, those pesky Negroes, they've been nothing but trouble since we let them leave the plantation!

Do you have any statistics on what percentage of company owners and CEOs are paying child support or would fail drug tests?

 

[banquetbear]

Are you suggesting I should be able to tell by looking at them?

Wow, you must teach me that at some stage!

...you can't tell the difference between a Pacific Islander and a Maori by looking at them? Is this a joke? You live in New Zealand, correct? Do you get out much?

No, I've already said I'm not collecting information based on ethnicity.

I'm not analysing the workforce either - it was just noticeable that the vast majority of employees with brown skin had child support deductions from their pay so I did some actual checking. I was right.

Not analyzing your workforce...right. To use your words:

I decided to get some actual statistics on my employees and what percentages of trouble came from black/brown* vs white employees.

As clear as day you are analyzing your workforce: I defy you to to show otherwise.

No, I use an entirely unscientific way of checking. If a bloke has dark brown skin, Polynesian features and black hair, I class them as Polynesian/Maori.

Yep. Entirely unscientific. Glad you admit it. Lets pretend you read somebody's unscientific un-cited non-analysis on a message board: what conclusions would you reach? Why did you bother posting this?

Aside from the four Indians, the terminology is interchangeable since all of the non-whites are either Pacific Islander or Maori.

Again: finding this hard to believe. You are in Auckland, correct? You only had four successful Indian applicants in the last year for Temp work?

And how on earth can you compare cultures as different as Maori, Tongan, Samoan and Indian? The only commonality that you have insisted on using is the colour of their skin. In other words: you see all people with dark skin as the same. Is this correct or am I entirely misreading this thread?

I will note that we only have 12 currently on the books - I did state that it referred to employees "we have had" over the past year. As you'd be aware, that kind of job has a high turnover.

So you currently only have twelve on your books. How many of them are black?

I'm assuming you were the wages clerk for the temp agency as you know whether orders were in place or not?

Ah. The gotcha question. Normally placed at the end of a rant in an attempt to catch the other person out. Should have seen it coming.

I am not going to disclose the details of my previous employment on a message board: although if you are determined enough you would find out who I am. All I will say is that I was in a position in the company where I was legally privy to this information that you are openly discussing on this message board.

 

[quixotecoyote]

And an incorrect pedant as well. "Begs the question" in the sense of "raises" is completely acceptable. See the Cambridge Idioms dictionary or the Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms. In both instances, it's not only an acceptable usage, but listed as the primary one.

Random House, Paul Brian's Common Errors in English Usage, and McGraw Hill's Dictionary of Idioms take my side.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Random House, Paul Brian's Common Errors in English Usage, and McGraw Hill's Dictionary of Idioms take my side.

The Common Errors source says, "Since we never use “begs” with this odd meaning (“to improperly take for granted”) in any other phrase, most people now suppose the phrase implies something quite different: that the argument demands that a question about it be asked—raises the question. Although using the expression in its original sense is now rare, using it in the newer sense will cause irritation among traditionalists."

Yoiks! Thou dost believe thy pedantic correction aright because most people don't use it that way anymore? Meseems that be strange. It's people like you who keep "they" from being used in both the singular as well as plural even though "you" seemed to make the transition without much trouble. You're the cork in the rectum of progress.

 

[quixotecoyote]

It's people like you who keep "they" from being used in both the singular as well as plural

Damn straight!

You're the cork in the rectum of progress.

You're the enema backwash I'm attempting to restrain.

 

[The Atheist]

...you can't tell the difference between a Pacific Islander and a Maori by looking at them? Is this a joke? You live in New Zealand, correct? Do you get out much?

I can often guess, but I've wrong too many times in the past to be sure. Not to mention the odd intermarriage. What nationality does Bic Runga look like?

As I asked before, how can I tell which is which?

You never hear police reports looking for a "Maori or Pacific Islander"?

I don't believe that it's possible to tell for certain in many cases.

As clear as day you are analyzing your workforce: I defy you to to show otherwise.

Have it your way.

Yep. Entirely unscientific. Glad you admit it. Lets pretend you read somebody's unscientific un-cited non-analysis on a message board: what conclusions would you reach? Why did you bother posting this?[/QUOTE[

I was under the impression this was a discussion site.

...Again: finding this hard to believe. You are in Auckland, correct? You only had four successful Indian applicants in the last year for Temp work?

Correct.

Although we had a recent project to hire post-event cleaners and almost all of them were Indian. Our temps are at the un/semi-skilled level and Indians are usually either too good or not good enough.

...I am not going to disclose the details of my previous employment on a message board: although if you are determined enough you would find out who I am.

Not only am I not determined, I don't care enough to even look at your profile.

I do find it interesting that someone who posts 5 times a year on average turned up in this thread after only two hours.

People will think you're my sock-puppet.

 

[bluescat48]

I'd happily stick to "non-white" if you like.

So then what do you consider as white?

 

[Wildy]

So then what do you consider as white?

Non-non-white.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

All I can say is that I'm the only white employee at work and by far the slowest.

 

[Soapy Sam]

TA-
In a very largely white population like that of central Scotland, I'd expect to find variations like those you list between socio-economic groups rather than racial groups (because we just don't have that much racial variation, but we have (I assume) about the same percentage of shiftless characters as anywhere else.) Many of them won't show in workplace stats at all as they have lived on benefit all their life and any child support is deducted directly. In addition, the Asian minority (by which I mean Indo-Pakistani and some Chinese) tend to be self employed.
So it would be unlikely (I suspect) to find similar figures to yours.
But I would expect to find a higher incidence of many social failings among people with temporary employment, or who change employer often, or who drink too much.

Do any of those fit any of your employees and if so would you say they fit the non whites closer?

 

[shemp]

All I can say is that I'm the only white employee at work and by far the slowest.

You play in the NBA?

 

[The Atheist]

But I would expect to find a higher incidence of many social failings among people with temporary employment, or who change employer often, or who drink too much.

Do any of those fit any of your employees and if so would you say they fit the non whites closer?

Most of them - especially if you add marijuana into the mix.

While the workers all have reasonably similar backgrounds & education, there is a correlation between skill level and ethnicity in our workforce with the more highly skilled more likely to be white.

While we don't use a lot of skilled labour, there are a few cases where a skilled person will take on a lower-skilled and -paying job on a temporary basis.

That would explain some of the difference. I'll see if I can find out how many fit that profile.