Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

Note that Bill has changed the topic from Dr. A and Bill's inability to understand English to an unfalsifiable, silly claim about "The establishment".

That's what Twoofers do.

 
BigAl said:
None of your fantasy does anything to discredit all the eyewitness reports, the public record of all the media, mostly available on the Internet, and the physical evidence and forensics that show that 19 Islamists hijacked 4 planes and crashed them and this caused all the death and destruction on 9/11.
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I was just answering a post from 3Body and killing time while I waited for you to answer my post to you #653 Al. Should I keep waiting ? lol
 
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bill smith said:
The 'establishment' is an apt description. Unfortunately 100% of the power now resides in establishment hands.

Think back to the 70's when Greenpeace was there and the students were representing the people's feelings on Vietnam ? And vitally we had a largely independent media.Where are the students now ? The media has been sewn up.

Greenpeace, Unicef and all other so-called radical bodies are now over 30 years old and are themselves part of the establishment. And nothing is taking the place of these popular organisations of people that would hold the government to account. The media have revealed themselves to be working almost entirely with the establishment.

So who is looking out for the public interest guys ? You may all find all this to be a good thing, but I'm afraid I do not agree.
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Right, that's a whole lot of nothing right there. Greenpeace is part of the "establishment"? Just like NIST? What about Nixon? Carter?
George Bush? Bill Clinton? Eric Estrada?
You don't don't make much sense bill smith. You've got to start pulling your weight around here. A couple more posts and if you don't improve you're on ignore bill smith. And I only save that dor the really boring people around here.
 
R.Mackey said:
So now that we've been well and truly derailed by Truther idiocy, you might have forgotten why this thread was originally here. It was penned as a way for Truthers to twist the words of a legitimate researcher into the appearance of supporting their theor -- wait, they don't have any theories. Rather, into supporting doubt about what happened on September 11th.

Over the years I've challenged several Truthers to write to Dr. Astaneh, to get it straight rather than simply echo each other's drivel. Only one that I know of took me up on that -- poster Sizzler whom we haven't seen in some time -- and he was good enough to drop it after he got the real answer. Among others, deep, formerly known as deep44, refused to contact him, offering this wholly pathetic excuse:



In the present era, the completely anonymous "vinniem" claims to have written the good professor, but I don't believe him.

If you had written him, you would have received something like this. Note to Moderators: The following was an e-mail response (two, actually) with the express intent of having it shown to the Truthers.





There you have it.

However, given my long experience with Truthers, I wholly expect the Truthers among you to continue running their mouths, shifting next to either arguing with the above on semantic grounds or finding some other excuse, wholly fabricated and fantastic of course, to ignore the intent of his message. To the Truthers: I dare you to impress me as human beings. Act maturely, if you can. The rest is up to you.

That definitely ends it among those of us who can reason, and should end it for all time.
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You wrote the following.

'' If you had written him, you would have received something like this. Note to Moderators: The following was an e-mail response (two, actually) with the express intent of having it shown to the Truthers.''

For completeness and for the record from when (what date) does the following statement of Dr.Astaneh-Asl that you have referenced here date ?

'' by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

All those who use my quote in this context of conspiracy theories are absolutely wrong and are doing a dis-service to the truth, the victims and their families and the humanity. No one should use that specific quote "molten metal" out of context, to indicate that I have seen molten metal and then use my good name and reputation as a researcher to conclude that there was a conspiracy.

All I tell to those who use my name is: "please stop using a phrase "molten steel" from eight years of my work and statements to further your absolutely misguided and baseless conspiracy theories and find another subject for your discussion. You are hurting the victims' families immensely and if you have any humanity you would stop doing so and will not use my name nor the out of context words from my work
" .

But will they listen?

Originally Posted by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

Please also feel free to bring to their attention that they find results of our findings by simply searching Google for "Astaneh WTC". There is a Design Magazine article that is freely accessible on the internet and provides good coverage of my work. It is at:
http://www.designnews.com/article/64...ing_Do_It_.php.

Again, please plead with these conspiracy theorists to stop using my name in any context what so ever regarding conspiracy theories. It causes quite a lot of pain for me to have my work abused in this way

Thank you.''
 
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bill smith said:
You wrote the following.

'' If you had written him, you would have received something like this. Note to Moderators: The following was an e-mail response (two, actually) with the express intent of having it shown to the Truthers.''

For completeness and for the record from when (what date) does the following statement of Dr.Astaneh-Asl that you have referenced here date ?

'' by Dr. Astaneh-Asl
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What is your point? Here is a September 24, 2006 article about Dr. A that says what the email says.


So what?
 
BigAl said:
What is your point? Here is a September 24, 2006 article about Dr. A that says what the email says.


So what?
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It's not too much to ask that an email that was essentially addressed to us Truthers should be dated for the record.Mackey knows the date.

See Mackey's note:

'' Note to Moderators: The following was an e-mail response (two, actually) with the express intent of having it shown to the Truthers.''
 
3bodyproblem said:
I think only tripped out hippies really know what the "establishment" is. A manifestation of a drug induced paranoia that's what.
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HEY. Watch it.

That be "MISTER Tripped Out Old Hippie" to you...!!

:eek:

Tom

PS. But day-um if I didn't cut off all my hair, an' unnerneath I found mah-self a red neck..!
 
tfk said:
HEY. Watch it.

That be "MISTER Tripped Out Old Hippie" to you...!!

:eek:

Tom

PS. But day-um if I didn't cut off all my hair, an' unnerneath I found mah-self a red neck..!
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Ahh, maybe you remember bill smith from that music festival in Bethel NY in '69. He was the one that brought the brown acid. And he did way more than half a hit. :eye-poppi
 
JHarrow said:
Particularly interesting is this bit



How exactly did the fires in 7 do that?
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Have you never seen metal that has been in a fire ?
How corroded it can be ?

Fire can and does cause accellerated oxidisation of steel (rusting).
 
sylvan8798 said:
At what temperature does steel vaporize?
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Silly question, as there was no vapourisation of steel.

There was oxidisation of steel, extreme corrosion (rust) because of the on going fires in the debris, but no vapourisation of steel.
The fires were only hot enough to weaken load bearing structure to the point that it could not support the load acting upon it.

Any blacksmith can show you that steel becomes more bendy and workable the hotter it gets, and there are plenty of blacksmithing videos on youtube.
 
bill smith said:
The 'establishment' is an apt description. Unfortunately 100% of the power now resides in establishment hands.

Think back to the 70's when Greenpeace was there and the students were representing the people's feelings on Vietnam ? And vitally we had a largely independent media.Where are the students now ? The media has been sewn up.

Greenpeace, Unicef and all other so-called radical bodies are now over 30 years old and are themselves part of the establishment. And nothing is taking the place of these popular organisations of people that would hold the government to account. The media have revealed themselves to be working almost entirely with the establishment.

So who is looking out for the public interest guys ? You may all find all this to be a good thing, but I'm afraid I do not agree.
Click to expand...


Greenpeace wasn't about vietnam, it was about nuclear testing in the sea, and other environmental issues.
The French government were complicit in the sinking of The Rainbow Warrior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

And Unicef has always been part of the UN so of course in its case it has always been part of the establisment, but Greenpeace is not. Recently Greenpeace staged mass protests against a coal fired power station resulting in a number of arrests and a court trial. In october they staged protests on the roof of the house of commons again resulting in arrests.
 
peteweaver said:
Greenpeace wasn't about vietnam, it was about nuclear testing in the sea, and other environmental issues.
The French government were complicit in the sinking of The Rainbow Warrior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

And Unicef has always been part of the UN so of course in its case it has always been part of the establisment, but Greenpeace is not. Recently Greenpeace staged mass protests against a coal fired power station resulting in a number of arrests and a court trial. In october they staged protests on the roof of the house of commons again resulting in arrests.
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And we were just as Young&Stupid in the 1970s (with anti-nuclear environmentalism) as truthers are today.

The similarities are legion.

"Don't trust the establishment."

Don't trust the nuclear engineers. They're all just lying to protect their paychecks.

Don't trust nuclear engineers in academia, because the Gubbamint funds unrelated programs in their schools.

Don't trust anyone over 30. They've all sold out.

The only one that we can trust for our info on nuclear physics are other students & folk singers & actors & medical doctors & poets. They ALL agree. They can't all be wrong.

Oh yeah, & TV. & Mother Jones (forgot about that one, didn't ya? Is it just a co-incidence that it is another "JONES"??? I think not...!)

And the movies. Didn't you see "China Syndrome"? That proves it!

You just have to read the papers to find out that all those nuke plants are melt-downs waiting to happen.

If the Challenger had been carrying Galileo or Cassini when it blew up, all of southern Florida would have become "as desolate as the face of the moon for 20,000 years." (True comment in the LA Times.)

THEY just want to control us & take away our rights.

THEY are covering up one nuke disaster after another.

Incidence of cancer, birth defects, spontaneous abortions & kids born with 2 heads has skyrocketed in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. And those "scientists" in their reports (BEIR reports) that say otherwise have been compromised, threatened, cherry picked to lie for the Gubbamint.

We need a new investigation of Three Mile Island. The previous one was a cover-up.

Where you stand on this topic defines whether you are a good guy (anti-nuke) or evil, money-grubbing shill for the Gubbamint & big business.

The parallels are enormous.

The main difference is that the anti-nuke, environmental movement shut down the industry and drove our economy back onto reliance on burning oil & coal. That has had huge, lasting effects.

The TM will have zero long-term effect.


Tom

PS. I am an environmentalist to my core. This is one of a group of issues that they got completely, horribly wrong. For the same reason that the truthers get their info so wrong: they refuse to listen to people who actually know what they are talking about.
 
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tfk said:
And we were just as Young&Stupid in the 1970s (with anti-nuclear environmentalism) as truthers are today.

The similarities are legion.

"Don't trust the establishment."

Don't trust the nuclear engineers. They're all just lying to protect their paychecks.

Don't trust nuclear engineers in academia, because the Gubbamint funds unrelated programs in their schools.

Don't trust anyone over 30. They've all sold out.

The only one that we can trust for our info on nuclear physics are other students & folk singers & actors & medical doctors & poets. They ALL agree. They can't all be wrong.

Oh yeah, & TV. & Mother Jones (forgot about that one, didn't ya? Is it just a co-incidence that it is another "JONES"??? I think not...!)

And the movies. Didn't you see "China Syndrome"? That proves it!

You just have to read the papers to find out that all those nuke plants are melt-downs waiting to happen.

If the Shuttle carrying Galileo or Cassini blew up on launch, all of southern Florida would have become "as desolate as the face of the moon for 20,000 years." (True comment in the LA Times.)

THEY just want to control us & take away our rights.

THEY are covering up one nuke disaster after another.

Incidence of cancer, birth defects, spontaneous abortions & kids born with 2 heads has skyrocketed in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. And those "scientists" in their reports (BEIR reports) that say otherwise have been compromised, threatened, cherry picked to lie for the Gubbamint.

We need a new investigation of Three Mile Island. The previous one was a cover-up.

Where you stand on this topic defines whether you are a good guy (anti-nuke) or evil, money-grubbing shill for the Gubbamint & big business.

The parallels are enormous.

The main difference is that the anti-nuke, environmental movement shut down the industry and drove our economy back onto reliance on burning oil & coal. That has had huge, lasting effects.

The TM will have zero long-term effect.


Tom

PS. I am an environmentalist to my core. This is one of a group of issues that they got completely, horribly wrong. For the same reason that the truthers get their info so wrong: they refuse to listen to people who actually know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Wish we could have those nuclear plants today. But too late. The US will never get its head out of its ass now. I cannot believe it's 2010 and we are burning coal and oil for electricity. France must be laughing its ass off.
 
A W Smith said:
Wish we could have those nuclear plants today. But too late. The US will never get its head out of its ass now. I cannot believe it's 2010 and we are burning coal and oil for electricity. France must be laughing its ass off.
Click to expand...

Go check out an interesting company called Hyperion.


Tom
 
tfk said:
And we were just as Young&Stupid in the 1970s (with anti-nuclear environmentalism) as truthers are today.

The similarities are legion.

"Don't trust the establishment."

Don't trust the nuclear engineers. They're all just lying to protect their paychecks.

Don't trust nuclear engineers in academia, because the Gubbamint funds unrelated programs in their schools.

Don't trust anyone over 30. They've all sold out.

The only one that we can trust for our info on nuclear physics are other students & folk singers & actors & medical doctors & poets. They ALL agree. They can't all be wrong.

Oh yeah, & TV. & Mother Jones (forgot about that one, didn't ya? Is it just a co-incidence that it is another "JONES"??? I think not...!)

And the movies. Didn't you see "China Syndrome"? That proves it!

You just have to read the papers to find out that all those nuke plants are melt-downs waiting to happen.

If the Challenger had been carrying Galileo or Cassini when it blew up, all of southern Florida would have become "as desolate as the face of the moon for 20,000 years." (True comment in the LA Times.)

THEY just want to control us & take away our rights.

THEY are covering up one nuke disaster after another.

Incidence of cancer, birth defects, spontaneous abortions & kids born with 2 heads has skyrocketed in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. And those "scientists" in their reports (BEIR reports) that say otherwise have been compromised, threatened, cherry picked to lie for the Gubbamint.

We need a new investigation of Three Mile Island. The previous one was a cover-up.

Where you stand on this topic defines whether you are a good guy (anti-nuke) or evil, money-grubbing shill for the Gubbamint & big business.

The parallels are enormous.

The main difference is that the anti-nuke, environmental movement shut down the industry and drove our economy back onto reliance on burning oil & coal. That has had huge, lasting effects.

The TM will have zero long-term effect.


Tom

PS. I am an environmentalist to my core. This is one of a group of issues that they got completely, horribly wrong. For the same reason that the truthers get their info so wrong: they refuse to listen to people who actually know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

A-frakking-men. Testify, brother!
 
bill smith said:
The 'establishment' is an apt description. Unfortunately 100% of the power now resides in establishment hands.

Think back to the 70's when Greenpeace was there and the students were representing the people's feelings on Vietnam ? And vitally we had a largely independent media.Where are the students now ? The media has been sewn up.

Greenpeace, Unicef and all other so-called radical bodies are now over 30 years old and are themselves part of the establishment. And nothing is taking the place of these popular organisations of people that would hold the government to account. The media have revealed themselves to be working almost entirely with the establishment.

So who is looking out for the public interest guys ? You may all find all this to be a good thing, but I'm afraid I do not agree.
Click to expand...

Good 'research' there Bill. Really adds to your credability.
 
3bodyproblem said:
Check out Babcock Wilcox too.
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This isn't the place for a giant derail. Perhaps I'll start a thread.

But B&W ain't a bunch of villains, any more than NIST is. They are an engineering business firm, made up of engineers, techs, accountants, project managers, executives, etc., with all the good & bad that comes with that territory.

They know that, if they produce crap that fails. then they are going to be gone in a few years. And everyone will be out of work.

The industry made a bunch of serious mistakes. Principally, in the US, they never settled on a single design like some other countries. Which meant that each plant was unique. And that left a lot of room for operator error.

But let's look at any industry, say "Grammar School Teachers". They start out as a bunch of people trying to do a job. They've got good teachers & bad teachers. The honorable administrators recognizes this & put in a plan to track the indicators of bad teachers - e.g., students failing or routinely getting beat up by the teacher or whatever, (both of which was looked upon as a necessity & a GOOD thing in my high school!) - in order to improve training or to weed out the bad teachers.

Good things thus far, right?

But some groups of people (call 'em "GST Truthers") decided that Grammar Schools were simply evil institutions. And they decided to try to put them out of business. And thru various legal means, they got their hands on those reports. And started waving them around as proof of what an evil, incompetent organization Grammar School Teachers is.

And so the GSTTs pressed, and won, legislation that required PUBLIC disclosure every time something went wrong in the classroom. Whether or not it had any impact on safety or efficacy of teaching...

"ran out of crayons"
"Billy dropped a book"
"Suzy tripped"
"Alex wet his pants"
"Ran out of attendance sheets"

And the GSTTs got those reports & would regularly use them to try to shut your school down.

At this point, the whole "incident reporting process" has gotten perverted. It's gone from a process whose primary purpose was to help improve the organization, to one whose primary purpose is to kill it.

Under those work pressures, the system is guaranteed to fail.

We discussed the exact same pathological process here, in another thread. The aviation industry had a process in place to anonymously report unsafe conditions or events. The process got perverted. It was used for a variety of different purposes, like union pressure to renegotiate contracts. Lots of squawks shut your airline down. When one airline started using non-union pilots in the 80s, the number of reported "incidents" against just that airlines pilots skyrocketed. It was not because of unsafe pilots.

Mistakes happen. Some people try to use those mistakes to improve things. Others have far less admirable agendas. And the Regulatory Agencies are caught in the middle. And become principally Politics Driven. And that is scary.

I'd conclude with a few observations.

The accusations against the nuke regulatory agencies are identical to the accusations against NIST & the 9/11 Commission.

The accusations of "cover-up" against government reports of incidents, like 3 Mile Island, are identical to the accusations against the NIST Report & the 9/11 Commission Report.

The distrust & dismissal of recognized, proven experts in industry, academia & government is identical in both cases.

And the willingness, (wrong word) "ENTHUSIASM" with which the media quote "experts" who gave them the most sensational sound-bite in the anti-nuke news reports of the 70s is very similar to the 9-11 truther web site nonsense.

In both of these cases (& 100 more - Global warming, energy policy, regulation/deregulation, medical practice/malpractice, vaccines/autism, silicone breast implants, high tension wires/leukemia, agent orange, etc) there are several common denominators:

Professionals trying to do their jobs
Customers, whose quality of life depends to some extent on the product
"Motivated" individuals with causes that define their lives
Sensational media trying to improve ratings
Politicians trying to keep their job or unseat an opponent
Lawyers getting rich in the middle

And a public that generally doesn't know to whom to turn for prudent advice & lacks the epistemology needed to help the unravel the mystery.

Just my $0.02.

Tom
 
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