Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

bill smith said:
Try to come up with something that's a litle bit realistic guys. It's not enough any more to simply apply the long used debunker rule of 'If it's not entirely impossible, then that's what happened'.
Click to expand...
As opposed to the long used twoofer rule of "if it's entirely impossible, then that's what happened?"
Things have changed and people are looking more critically at things. There was a time not too long ago when they would believe pretty well anything as you know. That's just about over thank God, and good riddance.
Click to expand...
You're right. That's why people are leaving the twoof movement in droves.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
All right. This was stupid a long time ago, and has gotten even more idiotic than before. Are you truthers seriously trying to pass off the idea that Astaneh-Asl identified molten steel but refuses to acknowledge what it supposedly indicates? Are you honestly trying to make real the fiction that Astaneh-Asl refuses to acknowledge what the consequences of his observations are?? Seriously???

How about: You conspiracy advocates refuse to understand the entire story? Why won't you consider that? Because that is the scenario that has the most support and logical consistency behind it. You all are refusing to acknowledge that there's information you're not including in your fantasy peddlling.

Go back to Red's OP here:



Let's quote from the 911blogger article:


"High temperature explosives (:rolleyes:), such as thermate, were used to bring down the towers"...

Yes. This is exactly the thesis you all are trying to defend. You're trying to say that Astaneh-Asl made observations and then is refusing to acknowledge where they supposedly lead. That article is making that exact connection. Keep reading:



In all those observations, we're supposed to take it as gospel that the notion that steel melted is proven. After all, Astaneh-Asl said it himself, even saying in 2007 that he "saw melting of girders in [the] World Trade Center". This from a man who personally inspected 40,000 tons of the steel debris himself. You truthers got the proof down and all us "debunkers" dead to rights.

Or do you?



Have we forgotten that this particular issue was studied by the Worchester team? Biederman, Sisson, Barnett, and others investigated this exact issue. Guess what? It turns out to be a sulfidation attack. Not thermate. Go read it:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=165759
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5w603461r3078t3/

Why do we know it can't be thermate? Read:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2835626&postcount=257



So we know two of his observations were referring directly to corrosion via sulfidation, and we know this because of the eutectic remainders. This is established. It is fact. The erosion that Astaneh-Asl noted was not actual high-temperature melting of steel, but liquidization. And no, liquidization does not mean molten steel:


Ryan goes on to explain why this distinction is important:


Logic, when used to studying evidence, shows what the story is. And all evidence must be included, not just specifically selected quotes without context. In the case of the eroded items, you must include the findings of the Worchester team. Doing so is selectively subtracting evidence and thus being dishonest. So in the end, we know that two of the quotes from Astaneh-Asl do not support any molten steel or thermate fantasies.

(to be continued)
Click to expand...

Why don't you send an email to Dr. A-Asl asking him to confirm what you say about his findings in this post of yours . Don't forget to ask him for permission to show us Truthers his reply. He has shown himself to be amenable to that before.

I hope you set this in motion right away as an early reply would be useful for us all,
 
Last edited:
bill smith said:
Why don't you send an email to Dr. A-Asl asking him to confirm what you say about his findings in this post of yours . Don't forget to ask him for permission to show us Truthers his reply.

I hope you set this in motion right away as an early reply would be yseful for us all,
Click to expand...

How would it be useful to you? I have never seen anything that indicates you are capable of assimilating information that doesn't support your world view.
 
bill smith said:
Why don't you send an email to Dr. A-Asl asking him to confirm what you say about his findings in this post of yours . Don't forget to ask him for permission to show us Truthers his reply.

I hope you set this in motion right away as an early reply would be yseful for us all,
Click to expand...
Why? We've actually read the reports. Why not give it a try?
 
Confirmation regarding Astanehl-Asl's opinions of the conspiracy fantasy was done quite a long time ago. Furthermore, he's not the only one who's spoken on the phenomenon; this is why I keep on harping on the totality of the evidence. Facts and results cannot be subtracted from consideration merely because they are inconvenient, yet that is exactly what conspiracy peddlers are doing here: Citing Astaneh-Asl's observations, but not mentioning WPI's expansion on those observations.

The fact remains is that the total picture establishes eutectic corrosion, and this picture is established with evidence that extends beyond the consideration of any individual researcher.
 
Last edited:
bill smith said:
Why don't you send an email to Dr. A-Asl asking him to confirm what you say about his findings in this post of yours . Don't forget to ask him for permission to show us Truthers his reply.

I hope you set this in motion right away as an early reply would be useful for us all,
Click to expand...

It's been done already and posted earlier today. I reallly believe you don't read the responses to the crap you post.



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5538611#post5538611

Originally Posted by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

All those who use my quote in this context of conspiracy theories are absolutely wrong and are doing a dis-service to the truth, the victims and their families and the humanity. No one should use that specific quote "molten metal" out of context, to indicate that I have seen molten metal and then use my good name and reputation as a researcher to conclude that there was a conspiracy.

All I tell to those who use my name is: "please stop using a phrase "molten steel" from eight years of my work and statements to further your absolutely misguided and baseless conspiracy theories and find another subject for your discussion. You are hurting the victims' families immensely and if you have any humanity you would stop doing so and will not use my name nor the out of context words from my work
" .

But will they listen?

Originally Posted by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

Please also feel free to bring to their attention that they find results of our findings by simply searching Google for "Astaneh WTC". There is a Design Magazine article that is freely accessible on the internet and provides good coverage of my work. It is at:
http://www.designnews.com/article/64...ing_Do_It_.php.

Again, please plead with these conspiracy theorists to stop using my name in any context what so ever regarding conspiracy theories. It causes quite a lot of pain for me to have my work abused in this way

Thank you.
Click to expand...
 
ElMondoHummus said:
Confirmation regarding Astanehl-Asl's opinions of the conspiracy fantasy was done quite a long time ago. Furthermore, he's not the only one who's spoken on the phenomenon; this is why I keep on harping on the totality of the evidence. Facts and results cannot be subtracted from consideration merely because they are inconvenient, yet that is exactly what conspiracy peddlers are doing here: Citing Astaneh-Asl's observations, but not mentioning WPI's expansion on those observations.

The fact remains is that the total picture establishes eutectic corrosion, and this picture is established with evidence that extends beyond the consideration of any individual researcher.
Click to expand...

I find it significnt that you you are clearly unwilling to put your post direct to the man and allow him to answer for himself.

I do not trust any member of the establishment in regards to 9/11 unless I have satisfied ourself as to their patriotism and honesty. Debunkers don't run the same risks as Truthers are not dangerous. On the other hand, if the government did what we think they did then they are extremely dangerous. See the difference ?

So it's obviously a simple matter for you to email the good Doctor. But if you won't you won't and we must draw our own conclusions.
 
Last edited:
bill smith said:
I find it significnt that you you are clearly unwilling to put your post direct to the man and allow him to answer for himself. ...
So it's obviously a simple matter for you to email the good Doctor. But if you won't you won't and we can draw our own conclusions.
Click to expand...

For at least the third time, here is Dr. A's answer.

Originally Posted by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

All those who use my quote in this context of conspiracy theories are absolutely wrong and are doing a dis-service to the truth, the victims and their families and the humanity. No one should use that specific quote "molten metal" out of context, to indicate that I have seen molten metal and then use my good name and reputation as a researcher to conclude that there was a conspiracy.

All I tell to those who use my name is: "please stop using a phrase "molten steel" from eight years of my work and statements to further your absolutely misguided and baseless conspiracy theories and find another subject for your discussion. You are hurting the victims' families immensely and if you have any humanity you would stop doing so and will not use my name nor the out of context words from my work
" .

But will they listen?

Originally Posted by Dr. Astaneh-Asl

Please also feel free to bring to their attention that they find results of our findings by simply searching Google for "Astaneh WTC". There is a Design Magazine article that is freely accessible on the internet and provides good coverage of my work. It is at:
http://www.designnews.com/article/64...ing_Do_It_.php.

Again, please plead with these conspiracy theorists to stop using my name in any context what so ever regarding conspiracy theories. It causes quite a lot of pain for me to have my work abused in this way

Thank you.
Click to expand...
 
BigAl said:
For at least the third time, here is Dr. A's answer.
Click to expand...
You didn't find this phrase hilarious ? '' No one should use that specific quote "molten metal" out of context, to indicate that I have seen molten metal ''

How do you take a tightly descriptive phrase like 'molten metal ' out of context ?
 
bill smith said:
You didn't find this phrase hilarious ? '' No one should use that specific quote "molten metal" out of context, to indicate that I have seen molten metal ''

How do you take a tightly descriptive phrase like 'molten metal ' out of context ?
Click to expand...

By ignoring the entire message, which is what twoofers like you do.
 
BigAl said:
By ignoring the entire message, which is what twoofers like you do.
Click to expand...

Try to be more specific Al. If You cannot show where I am wrong in the last post that must confirm that I am right and that not only is Dr.A-Asl's statement hilarious it is manifestly ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
bill smith said:
Try to be more specific Al. If You cannot show where I am wrong in the last post that must confirm that I am right and that not only is Dr.A-Asl's statement hilarious it is manifestly ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Do we need to draw you a picture? By reading ALL of his work. Try reading for comprehension.
 
bill smith said:
I do not trust any member of the establishment in regards to 9/11 unless I have satisfied ourself as to their patriotism and honesty. Debunkers don't run the same risks as Truthers are not dangerous. On the other hand, if the government did what we think they did then they are extremely dangerous. See the difference ?
Click to expand...

"The Establishment"? What are you like 100 years old bill? What is the "establishment"? I've only ever heard this term used to refer to anyone not having long hair and being over the age of 30. It's a pretty dated term. I think only tripped out hippies really know what the "establishment" is. A manifestation of a drug induced paranoia that's what. Sound about right billy boy?
 
3bodyproblem said:
"The Establishment"? What are you like 100 years old bill? What is the "establishment"? I've only ever heard this term used to refer to anyone not having long hair and being over the age of 30. It's a pretty dated term. I think only tripped out hippies really know what the "establishment" is. A manifestation of a drug induced paranoia that's what. Sound about right billy boy?
Click to expand...

The 'establishment' is an apt description. Unfortunately 100% of the power now resides in establishment hands.

Think back to the 70's when Greenpeace was there and the students were representing the people's feelings on Vietnam ? And vitally we had a largely independent media.Where are the students now ? The media has been sewn up.

Greenpeace, Unicef and all other so-called radical bodies are now over 30 years old and are themselves part of the establishment. And nothing is taking the place of these popular organisations of people that would hold the government to account. The media have revealed themselves to be working almost entirely with the establishment.

So who is looking out for the public interest guys ? You may all find all this to be a good thing, but I'm afraid I do not agree.
 
Last edited:
bill smith said:
Greenpeace, Unicef and all other so-called radical bodies are now over 30 years old and are themselves part of the establishment. And nothing is taking the place of these popular organisations of people that would hold the government to account. The media have revealed themselves to be working almost entirely with the establishment.

So who is looking out for the public interest guys ? You may all find all this to be a good thing, but I'm afraid I do not agree.
Click to expand...

I don't find it all to be a good thing. Since it's all a figment of your imagination, I have no opinion of it one way or the other.
 
3bodyproblem said:
"The Establishment"? What are you like 100 years old bill? What is the "establishment"? I've only ever heard this term used to refer to anyone not having long hair and being over the age of 30. It's a pretty dated term. I think only tripped out hippies really know what the "establishment" is. A manifestation of a drug induced paranoia that's what. Sound about right billy boy?
Click to expand...

In The Turner Diaries the RaHoWa is fought between two forces, "The Establishment" and "The Organisation."

Bill Smith is an agent of the Oraganisation.
 
bill smith said:
The 'establishment' is an apt description. Unfortunately 100% of the power now resides in establishment hands.
Click to expand...

None of your fantasy does anything to discredit all the eyewitness reports, the public record of all the media, mostly available on the Internet, and the physical evidence and forensics that show that 19 Islamists hijacked 4 planes and crashed them and this caused all the death and destruction on 9/11.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom