Haiti to become under temporary American control?

[Tailgater]

So does no actions, but I'm guessing the posts would be the same.

 

[Skeptic]

Actions have consequences.

But you would blame American no matter what it did. If it didn't send help to Haiti, you'd be ranting that it doesn't care about it because it has no oil, or because Haitians are Black, or something. Now that it did send help, you claim it's a coup attempt for imperialistic purposes.

So as far as your posts are concerned, American actions actually have no consequences: they have absolutely no effect on your posts. No matter America does, or does not do, or tries to do, or does not try to do, your posts would be the same (to wit, "America evil").

 

[JihadJane]

But you would blame American no matter what it did. If it didn't send help to Haiti, you'd be ranting that it doesn't care about it because it has no oil, or because Haitians are Black, or something. Now that it did send help, you claim it's a coup attempt for imperialistic purposes.

So as far as your posts are concerned, American actions actually have no consequences: they have absolutely no effect on your posts. No matter America does, or does not do, or tries to do, or does not try to do, your posts would be the same (to wit, "America evil").

Thanks. I can now cancel my appointment with my local Tarot card reader.

 

[quarky]

Well, I don't think that America is evil. I think that almost all nations and people are going through an awkward phase of re-identification.

Haiti is more like an African 3rd world nation than a Caribbean country. Of course, all the 'civilized' world has taken advantage of it over time....why wouldn't they?

That there is nothing left to exploit is a good thing. The voodoo religious leanings are a big obstacle, as they have so much to do with destiny and the spirits. Such belief leaves little space for self motivation.

 

[Skeptic]

Well, I don't think that America is evil. I think that almost all nations and people are going through an awkward phase of re-identification.

I would believe that if you actually tried to give a balanced history of western/Haiti relations, one that gives both the good and the bad.

But you clearly have no interest in accurate history; your "historical account" is an "America / the west / capitalism is evil and exploitative" caricature, and you rant at those who point out that's not true as "haters" who want Blacks to be slaves again.

 

[Skeptic]

Thanks. I can now cancel my appointment with my local Tarot card reader.

I like it when people ask me, "how do you know I would have done that? Are you a mind reader????"

Well, I am a mind reader under certain circumstances.

For example, when the vast majority of somebody's posts in the past have been "America is evil" conspiracy theories that blame America for everything no matter what happens, I think that's pretty good evidence that in their mind America is evil and should be blamed for everything no matter what happens, so I can -- in a flash of inspiration from the mysterious powers of the great beyond -- predict that they would blame America for everything no matter what happens in Haiti's case too.

Funny, how that works. But for some reason I think these amazing mind-reading powers are not exactly paranormal. After all, it is sort of the point of somebody posting repeatedly that America is evil and is to blame for everything to let us know that, in their mind, America is evil and to blame for everything.

No fair first letting us all read what's on your mind by telling it to us repeatedly, and then act shocked -- shocked! -- that we claim to know what's on your mind.

 

[fess]

I see that the USAR teams are now pulling out of Haiti. Although I am proud of what these teams did, I am also somewhat saddened. Why you might ask; because the chances of finding and rescuing more victims is nil. The full magnitude of this catastrophe has not yet come to light.

What really is sad is that the criticism will now become a focal point of those certain people that have nothing better to do… like the media.
Read the first paragraph of this story and see what I mean, "captured Haitians".
msnbc.msn.com/id/34981502/ns ... earthquake
Someone will definitely use this to their advantage.

 

[Nosi]

One reason for the violence and looting in Haiti is strictly local; that collapsed prison let loose a lot of scum. They are partying hard before they get rounded back up and sent into another prison. That has nothing whatsoever to do with any foreign power in Haiti at the moment including Americans.

 

[JihadJane]

One reason for the violence and looting in Haiti is strictly local; that collapsed prison let loose a lot of scum. They are partying hard before they get rounded back up and sent into another prison. That has nothing whatsoever to do with any foreign power in Haiti at the moment including Americans.

What do you mean by "looting"?

What evidence do you have that the escaped prisoners are "partying hard"?

"When the 3,000 inmates of the central prison in Port-au-Prince unexpectedly gained their freedom, courtesy of the earthquake, everybody knew where they would be headed: Cité Soleil, the poorest area of this poorest city, in whose maze of streets they could vanish.

But the fugitives hadn't counted on one thing: the determination of Cité Soleil's people not to let them back."


'Haiti escaped prisoners chased out of notorious slum

Residents of Cité Soleil determined to prevent jailbreak gangsters dragging area back into dark past'

 

[Cynic]

What evidence do you have that they all went there? It's only reasonable to assume that some of them are looting, somewhere. Doesn't mean it's primarily them, of course, but as escaped prisoners, they don't have their own resources and might look conspicuous in line.

 

[JihadJane]

What evidence do you have that they all went there? It's only reasonable to assume that some of them are looting, somewhere. Doesn't mean it's primarily them, of course, but as escaped prisoners, they don't have their own resources and might look conspicuous in line.

I haven't got any evidence that they all went there but the article seriously undermines Nosi's careless 'partying hard" assertion.

BTW, what's so terrible about people looting when they have no food or water? Remember Blackwater in New Orleans?

 

[Childlike Empress]

A SPIEGEL reporter from Port-au-Prince:

The other flight traffic is now running smoothly after the initial chaos. Every few minutes a plane lands, including a charter flight from Delta Airlines. Huge juggernauts from the US Air Force and the Fuerza Aérea Venezolana wait on the runway to be filled with people and material.

Most aid organizations are no longer complaining. "Everything has gotten better," says Rebecca Gustafson of USAID. "And our search and rescue teams are still out there. Until the Haitian government tells them not to."

Shortly before 4 p.m. the last helicopter of the day reaches the USNS Comfort, which is anchored in the bay. The Dragonslayer 611 doesn't have any patients on board, just soldiers and reporters. Pilot Scott Hatch flies the helicopter in big circles over the city, "making donuts."

If they let the Venezuelans use the airport, it can't be too bad. Even Chavez' complaints are relatively mild:

So far Venezuela has sent 616 metric tons of food aid and 116 metric tons of equipment, including water purification systems, electrical generators and heavy equipment for moving rubble.

Venezuela, the largest oil exporter in South America, is also sending free fuel to the devastated country, with Chavez pledging “The Venezuelan people will donate all the fuel the Haitian people need.” [...]

A tanker with 225 000 barrels (worth approximately US$18 million) of diesel fuel and gasoline departed from Venezuela on Sunday.

The Venezuela-Cuba initiated Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of our Americas (ALBA) fair trade bloc, which also includes Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Dominica, Antigua and Barbados, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines has also sent two ships carrying 4,761 metric tons of food aid.

Speaking at the inauguration of the San Agustín cable car system in Caracas today, Chavez announced that another five ships loaded with food and medical supplies departed for Haiti yesterday, adding, “We have sent one or two Venezuelan soldiers to support and protect the safety of everyone there, but not to militarily occupy them as the U.S. intends to do.”

 

[JihadJane]

Some thoughts on “looting” by Rebecca Solnit, author of A Paradise Built in Hell, a testament to human bravery and innovation during disasters.

 

[Cynic]

BTW, what's so terrible about people looting when they have no food or water? Remember Blackwater in New Orleans?

It all depends on what you call "looting", I guess. In a disaster area, there's a fine line between theft, looting, and scavenging. The need for survival excuses much, but it's reasonable to scorn those who would prioritize their own survival over that of others.

 

[Skeptic]

Some thoughts on “looting” by Rebecca Solnit, author of A Paradise Built in Hell, a testament to human bravery and innovation during disasters.

By all means, go to that web site to see the parallel universe some people inhabit. Some, er, "interesting" articles from that web site:

"Avatar: An Extension of White Supremacy" (Nobody except for them noticed)

"Cancer: the Deadly Legacy of the Invasion of Iraq" (another idiotic conspiracy theory)

"Global Economic Collapse in Two Years" (Hooray! Everybody will be poor and suffering but at least the evil capitalists won't be making money!)

"A List of 220 gendered words in our language" (awful words that magically make us all women-haters, including "history", "fast", "shame", and the very existence of those two disgusting terms, "man" and "woman".)

"Murdering mother earth, one atom at a time" (that would take a while, then, considering the earth has about 10^50 atoms in it)

"Justice for Mumia Abu-Jamal" (of course)

"America's Pending Collapse" (Yay!)

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[Skeptic]

It all depends on what you call "looting", I guess. In a disaster area, there's a fine line between theft, looting, and scavenging.

That is quite true. I never considered the folks in New Orleans who were seen on camera taking water, canned goods, diapers, etc. as "looters".

Those who took large-screen TVs, however...

it's reasonable to scorn those who would prioritize their own survival over that of others.

Is it?

I can see why we should praise those who do not put their own life before the lives of others, such as a fireman dying to save a fire victim or a man giving his only food to a hungry child.

But I can't see how we can possibly scorn someone who, however selfishly, fights to survive in a disaster, even at others' expense.

It's very easy for A, safe and comfortable, to tell B that B should have been a selfless self-sacrificing hero.

 

[Cynic]

Is it?

I can see why we should praise those who do not put their own life before the lives of others, such as a fireman dying to save a fire victim or a man giving his only food to a hungry child.

But I can't see how we can possibly scorn someone who, however selfishly, fights to survive in a disaster, even at others' expense.

It's very easy for A, safe and comfortable, to tell B that B should have been a selfless self-sacrificing hero.

As a general statement, saying "it's reasonable to scorn those who would prioritize their own survival over others" fails, I agree. While a man that runs into a burning building to save others is great, a man who doesn't isn't necessarily bad. But I intended my statement to apply to people who would take a more active, direct role in such prioritization. For instance, someone who would steal the necessary life-supporting supplies of one family --condemning them -- to support him his own.

We can argue that the instinct for survival is only human, but that doesn't make it necessarily good and immune from scorn in all cases. Among our other instincts is cooperation. Of course, refusal to cooperate, the consequences of which condemn those left out, can be seen as an attack as well, and looting from them could be seen as self-defense.

Yes, you're right -- there's a ton of gray area and it's far more easy for those sitting back in comfort to be judgmental about this. At the same time, the bulk of post-apocalyptic genre works concern themselves this topic almost exclusively, trying to draw the lines between acceptable and unacceptable conduct in a world gone to hell.

 

[Skeptic]

We can argue that the instinct for survival is only human, but that doesn't make it necessarily good and immune from scorn in all cases. Among our other instincts is cooperation.

Yes, that's 100% true. Thanks for the clarification.

I agree with you that just because we're not in X's position does not mean X's actions are immune from criticism. But I think we agree that we would apply a much more lenient standard in a case such as Haiti to people acting to what in normal circumstances would be despicable.

 

[Eyeron]

I'm extremely suspicious of the word temporary and hope that it is true. Is there a timeline for withdrawal of American personnel to end this?

 

[Cynic]

Timelines are a difficult subject, as you might have noticed from the Iraq/Afghanistan thing.

I've heard people calling for a Marshall Plan (effectively) for Haiti, which could leave us with a presence there for some time, but certainly not "control" or even military.