Equity market says US Health Bill is killed

[FarmallMTA]

but if it no bill is passed now, I fear it will be many years, if not decades, before we get another chance.

May that be true. And may it come to pass that many decades go by before the utter destruction of the best health care system in the world is again attempted by socialists.

Let it go, you nazi/commie statists. You lost your latest chance. As usual.

 

[332nd]

Uh... no.



That's not what made the bill sink. What made it sink is the public hearing more and more about it. And the more they heard about it, the less they liked it. Had the democrats gone the other direction, the poll numbers would have dropped even faster.

Yeah, the lies about "death panels", doing away with medicare, the government totally taking over health care had nothing to do with it.

 

[ZenFountain]

They can do much, much better.

How? It's simply not possible when moderate Senate Democrats will torpedo the reforms progressives want and Republicans obviously will not support it either. Short of 100 million voters marching on Washington with pitchforks and torches demanding strong health care reform it's simply not going to happen.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Which is an odd objection, since in the various non-US health care systems I have experienced, I have had no choices forced on me. What do you get to choose in the US that I don't get to choose in Norway or the UK?

Between death or bankruptcy from medical bills. You don't have that kind of choice over there now do you?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Open up health insurance to competition across state lines. It's politically a pretty easy sell (it's hard to really argue that it would make anything worse, and it's easy to see how it could improve things), and while it wouldn't solve all the health care problems, it would still be a significant change for the better.

Yep, it will mean that you can now only get insurance from states that offer the least consumer protection, and the most ways of targeting the costs to the sick. Why bother offering coverage in states that don't do what you want them to?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Love 'em or hate 'em, the Republicans will fall in line behind the principles of the national party. If anything the Democrats have shown themselves to be more concerned with hanging on to power than actually doing anything.

We will get Health Care Reform only when todays liberals become tomorrows conservatives, and that might take awhile. Well until all the old people die, and the boomers have to deal with paying their own way for medical care. Although...I think I will switch to a hard line Libertarian perspective then, and devote my time to lecturing them on how they should have planned ahead. I will call it the youth tax, and villianize it as socialism to pay of those lazy boomers looking for a hand out.

Given that yesterdays conservatives are todays liberals, I don't see this happening. The US is not getting more liberal.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, that's rather a matter of opinion isn't it? The blue dogs didn't get on board because they and their constituents didn't think it was a good bill.

Damn politicians, responding to the desires of the public. What do they think this is, a democracy?

So whos constituents were the more than 50% of americans who favored a public option, seems that they have no real representation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

"watered down"? That's an interesting way to put giveaways to the pharmaceutical industry, unions, bribes to Louisiana and Nebraska, appeasing the trial lawyers, kowtowing to the quack industry and other woo called "alternative medicine", assuring big business keeps their leg up on small businesses by not only keeping but entrenching the idiotic employer-based health insurance system we have, keeping the fee-for-service system which drives up health care costs, letting the AMA continue to control medical school enrollment thus ensuring shortages of doctors who can then demand higher pay and at the same time makes medical schools expensive... the list goes on and on.

Remember in school when you half-assed a paper and your teacher gave you a low grade and insisted you could do better, despite your protests? And then you found out that you could do better? It's time to hold Congress' feet to the fire and insist that they do better. They will kick, they will scream, they will insist that this was "the best we can do", and they're full of horse manure.

They can do much, much better. But they won't unless US voters force them to.

Hey we have systems in place to prevent this kind of populist radical from getting power.

 

[ponderingturtle]

May that be true. And may it come to pass that many decades go by before the utter destruction of the best health care system in the world is again attempted by socialists.

Let it go, you nazi/commie statists. You lost your latest chance. As usual.

True, america has the Cattilac of health care systems. Over priced, in efficient, unreliable. But at least it can claim style.

This is why I think we need to go back to the good old days, and put large fins on our hospitals.

 

[Random]

Err, there would have to be market forces at work before anything could respond to them.

There is little to no competition in either health care delivery or health insurance, and that is by government design at the state and federal level.

If you want to see actual competition look at the Netherland's model.

There is plenty of competition in healthcare delivery, but in medicine, supply drives demand. The more doctors there are, the more they have to compete for clients, but doctors are usually paid ala carte or for each procedure performed. If the numbr of clients they have starts to fall, they start looking for things to fix in their remaining patients (extra blood tests, laser eye surgery instead of glasses, knee surgery instead of a cane, etc). The result is that the amount of work the doctor performs stays the same, regardless of how many extra doctors you throw in the mix. Patients who can afford it like it because they get more bells and whistles and yeah, a few extra lives are saved. Doctors like it because they can stay in business and make money. But costs don't come down at all. That's how we got a healthcare system where one third of medical procedures are medically unneccessary.

Health insurance has its own issues regarding competition. Health insurance companies save money is by arranging contracts with hospitals and doctors to have their clients get discounted rates, or else they will go to a different hospital/doctor. If one health insurer covers fifty percent of a hospitals patients, they are in a great position to bargain for lower rates. But if there are more health insurers in an area, they will each have a smaller portion of a hospitals business and lose bargaining power. Counterintuitively, increased health insurace company competition can lead to higher prices. Thats why Aetna dropped a lot of contracts. Not because they were unhealthy or unprofitable, but because of their physical location. If they lived in an area where Aetna didn't have a solid bargaining block of the population, Aetna dropped em.

 

[ZirconBlue]

May that be true. And may it come to pass that many decades go by before the utter destruction of the best health care system in the world is again attempted by socialists.

The best health care system in the world -- if you can afford it.

Let it go, you nazi/commie statists. You lost your latest chance. As usual.

Are we Nazis or Commies? Make up your mind.

Yeah, the lies about "death panels", doing away with medicare, the government totally taking over health care had nothing to do with it.

No, he's right. The more (lies and disinformation) they heard about the bill, the more they disliked it.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, the lies about "death panels", doing away with medicare, the government totally taking over health care had nothing to do with it.

Complain all you want to about that, but it still doesn't support the notion that the plan lost support because it was watered down.

 

[Region Rat]

How? It's simply not possible when moderate Senate Democrats will torpedo the reforms progressives want and Republicans obviously will not support it either. Short of 100 million voters marching on Washington with pitchforks and torches demanding strong health care reform it's simply not going to happen.

You seem to be making the assumption that "the reforms progressives want", at the expense of what the moderate Democrats or Republicans want, is either the only or best way to go.

That may not be the case. Quite possibly there is a better middle ground that can be passed.

 

[Peephole]

Well, that's rather a matter of opinion isn't it? The blue dogs didn't get on board because they and their constituents didn't think it was a good bill.

Damn politicians, responding to the desires of the public. What do they think this is, a democracy?

That might be so, but that's the misinformed (thanks to the media, the Republicans and inept Democrats) American public that's screwing themselves over.

 

[Peephole]

They can do much, much better. But they won't unless US voters force them to.

Not really, because the alternative to Democrats is the Republicans, who don't support any workeable health care reform at all.

That's not what made the bill sink. What made it sink is the public hearing more and more about it. And the more they heard about it, the less they liked it. Had the democrats gone the other direction, the poll numbers would have dropped even faster.

No, this is just as wrong as "the bill lost support because it was not ambitious enough." I don't think the American public cares all that much about the specifics of health care reform, as long as it works.

They soured on health care because of the protracted struggle, deals with special intrests and the industry, and because of several lies Republicans told them about the bills (death panels, huge costs, Medicare dismantling).

Progressive elements in the plans like a public option, however, are generally popular ideas. But I don't think cancelling these things gets people to drop their support either.

 

[Peephole]

You seem to be making the assumption that "the reforms progressives want", at the expense of what the moderate Democrats or Republicans want, is either the only or best way to go.

That may not be the case. Quite possibly there is a better middle ground that can be passed.

Progressives have compromised already to the point that these bills wouldn't be workeable anymore if you cancelled key provisions (mandates, subsidies and the provisions meant to eliminate denial of coverage). So unless you go for a radical and transformative plan like Wyden-Bennett, there is no further compromise possible.

 

[Ziggurat]

That might be so, but that's the misinformed (thanks to the media, the Republicans and inept Democrats) American public that's screwing themselves over.

And the search begins for culprits to explain why the population at large doesn't agree with you.

But sometimes there is no culprit. Sometimes people just don't believe in what you believe in.

 

[Peephole]

Yeah.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/public-support-for-public-option.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/new-poll-77-percent-suppo_n_264375.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.html

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah.

I'm reminded of polling done in 2004 that showed people preferred a "democrat" to Bush, by a wide margin. But that was against a generic democrat. Against the specific democrat who actually ran, well, that was a different story.

When the option is generic, people often treat the option as if it matched their specific desires. And so people who want a "public option", but not the same "public option", will answer the question the same way, even though they may want incompatible things. Hell, even if they want the same thing, they may only want it if they can get it at a cost which is not achievable. So when a poll asks a question about an unspecified option with no associated cost, well, why would you expect that poll to be meaningful?

Or in case that's too complicated for you, let me make it simple: those poll results don't mean anything. Elections do. Know any recent elections in which Obamacare was a major issue? I do.

 

[Magyar]

May that be true. And may it come to pass that many decades go by before the utter destruction of the best health care system in the world is again attempted by socialists.

Let it go, you nazi/commie statists. You lost your latest chance. As usual.

So now that the health care plan is dead, when are you going to start your ANTI-nazi/commie protest against socialized police, fire, libraries, education etc?