Equity market says US Health Bill is killed

[Pastor Bentonit]

Edited by Darat: 

Breach of Rule 10 & "Be civil and polite" removed.

Granted, but still...

 

[daenku32]

More proof that Republicans want people to die... I mean defeat the healthcare bill.

 

[Pastor Bentonit]

Again, what's wrong with these people? Do they seriously want to be *****d? Do tell me, here in capitalist...Sweden.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Americans can only partially opt out, because there is an income tax subsidy for employer-based insurance which you can't recoup if you go it alone. Also (I'm not an expert on this) employers sometimes kick in some of the premium for employees on top of salary, and the employer contribution probably can't be recouped either.

I'm not sure whether my experience is typical, but every employer I've worked for has paid the great majority of the premiums. IIRC the amount currently deducted from my paycheck is only around 15% of my total health insurance premium.

 

[boooeee]

While employee health insurance plans cannot refuse new employees with existing conditions, they can encourage the employer to fire the employee. This is fairly easy with small businesses that don't have much bargaining power. Simply tell the employer at the next legal opportunity that their group rate is going to triple with the addition of the new employee. The employer is free to find another group health insurance plan, but will then face the same problem that a person with a pre-existing condition would find getting insurance on the individual market (no one will sell them a policy except at inflated prices). Only way out is to find some reason to drop the sick employee.

Evidence this has ever happened? That's a clear cut HIPAA privacy violation. Insurance companies have to be very careful when it comes to providing information to employers on the claims of their employees.

 

[Ziggurat]

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/mlt/c...ea=&level=1#Pre-existing_condition_exclusions

Yup, pretty much agrees with what I said. Note this bit:
"If you are a cancer patient and join a new health insurance plan, you may face a pre-existing condition exclusion period."
Cancer patient, AUP. That means you're already receiving treatment. An undiagnosed cancer is not counted as a pre-existing condition. You had no clue what you were talking about, and it's not clear that you've actually learned anything.

 

[Ziggurat]

Granted, but still...

Ah yes, the old life expectancy canard. Sorry, but there are so many other factors involved that to suppose that healthcare system differences among developed nations amounts to even a significant fraction of that difference is simply unwarranted.

 

[Ziggurat]

While employee health insurance plans cannot refuse new employees with existing conditions, they can encourage the employer to fire the employee.

Which is a different issue than the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions (basically it's another form of rescission), and has no bearing on AUP's claim or mine.

 

[Shalamar]

Which is an odd objection, since in the various non-US health care systems I have experienced, I have had no choices forced on me. What do you get to choose in the US that I don't get to choose in Norway or the UK?

Technically speaking, under a single payer option, people would have MORE choices for Health Care. They could visit any doctor, any specialist, any hospital they wish. You wouldn't have to worry about having to change doctors if you change insurance plans/ No more rifling through the insurance company books to see what doctors in your area are covered. No more worries about a doctors office deciding to no longer accept your insurance.

So a true single payer would give people more health CARE options. But they would be limited to one health INSURANCE.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Note as well that some moderate Senate Democrats are urging a go-slow approach; including Jim Webb :

And Evan Bayh:

Yeah, I have been reading about the "go slow" approach being pushed by some Dems - there could be some real merit to this notion. The thing is that what will have to happen is that Republicans will have to be willing to step up to the plate and not filibuster anything and everything that Obama and the Dems propose, lest they get labeled with obstructionism.

I worry that some folks in the GOP will allow this MA win to go to their heads and they'll take the obstructionist route as opposed to actually trying to get something done.

We'll see what happens - here's to hoping.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Cancer patient, AUP. That means you're already receiving treatment.

That's a silly thing to say. Receive treatment is what sick insured quitters do.

You have to overcome past diagnosis. You don't need x-rays that nobody's going to pay for when you have the courage and resolve to ignore them.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's a silly thing to say.

No, it isn't. An undiagnosed cancer is NOT considered a prior condition for purposes of exclusion of medical coverage, one of only several reasons that AUP's original scenario was nonsense. Your response has no relevance to this point. If you can't figure out what we're talking about, don't join the debate.

 

[Frank Newgent]

If you can't figure out what we're talking about, don't join the debate.

I understand what you are saying and I think it's funny.

 

[IXP]

On NPR this morning, they cited 4 ways the bill could be passed if Brown is elected:

1. Try to hurry the bill through to a vote before the Mass. vote is certified.
2. Try to negotiate changes to bring one Republican (read: Olympia Snow) on board. (Actually, they don't need a Republican vote for the bill, just one to not support a filibuster.)
3. Get the House to vote for the Senate Bill as-is.
4. Attach the legislation to a spending bill, which, by senate procedure doesn't require the 60 votes.

I agree. I'm hopeful that if a bill is passed, it can be improved in future years; but if it no bill is passed now, I fear it will be many years, if not decades, before we get another chance.

The fact that a Republican could be elected to the senate in MA running on the platform that he would kill the health reform bill will be noticed by all Democratic members of congress. The entire House is up for reelection this year. There will be no health care bill passed this year.

Pretty ironic, since here MA we already have the major changes of the bill as state law, and it has 80% approval among MA residents. I guess we just don't what the rest of the country to have what we have.

By the way, I voted against Martha Coakley in the primary because I thought she was a weak candidate. I voted for her yesterday.

IXP

 

[Magyar]

If I was Obama and the Dems I would go 3rd rail and expose the the republicans and Brown for the hypocrites they are! Health care is dead, and with it Obama lost a ton of political will and the same old politics will not work. So IF I really believed in health care I would opt for the Hail Marry and go straight at Brown and the reps with

After this election and the peoples obvious dislike for the concept of UHC and socialized health care along with the dislike for large govt I've come to see the light.
Therefore I will be welcoming Mr Brown from MA as the political outsider and the populist choice to lead the way on introducing legislation that;

1) immediately discontinuing the health care coverage afforded to the members of congress since if it's not good enough for he PEOPLE it certainly should not be good enough for those who WORK for the people
2) and in order to cut govt. down to a much smaller size immediately switch all medicaid and medicare programs to the the private industry and get the US govt out of socialized medicine.


I will sign any bill without hesitation that accomplished the above and has 100% support of my enlightened republican coleages. and let Brown and CO explain to us why those bennies are good enoguh for them and the Tea baggers and mostly rich, white, 50+ constituant who got them elected (along with the red states who get FAR more of that kind of aid then blue stated)

 

[DavidJames]

If I was Obama and the Dems I would go 3rd rail and expose the the republicans and Brown for the hypocrites they are! Health care is dead, and with it Obama lost a ton of political will and the same old politics will not work. So IF I really believed in health care I would opt for the Hail Marry and go straight at Brown and the reps with

After this election and the peoples obvious dislike for the concept of UHC and socialized health care along with the dislike for large govt I've come to see the light.
Therefore I will be welcoming Mr Brown from MA as the political outsider and the populist choice to lead the way on introducing legislation that;

1) immediately discontinuing the health care coverage afforded to the members of congress since if it's not good enough for he PEOPLE it certainly should not be good enough for those who WORK for the people
2) and in order to cut govt. down to a much smaller size immediately switch all medicaid and medicare programs to the the private industry and get the US govt out of socialized medicine.


I will sign any bill without hesitation that accomplished the above and has 100% support of my enlightened republican coleages. and let Brown and CO explain to us why those bennies are good enoguh for them and the Tea baggers and mostly rich, white, 50+ constituant who got them elected (along with the red states who get FAR more of that kind of aid then blue stated)

works for me.

 

[Francesca R]

There will be no health care bill passed this year.

That's my conclusion too. Awesome ****-up by the geezer in chief IMO. Tragic too IMO relative to the ideas of a year ago but I don't live there so meh.

 

[Ziggurat]

If I was Obama and the Dems I would go 3rd rail and expose the the republicans and Brown for the hypocrites they are!

Your naivety is charming. Threatening to privatize Medicare because people don't support Obamacare would be political suicide for Obama. You see, swing voters don't care about ideological purity, or hell, even intellectual consistency. What you call exposing hypocrisy wouldn't be treated as such by voters. Because at the end of the day, voters are themselves a little bit hypocritical.

 

[Beerina]

Democrats will use the procedural nuclear-option to get this passed.

You are living on some strange world where power hungry in Congress will accelerate as they drive off a cliff for next November?

My theory is they're after power. They don't want to be turned out, en masse, next November. Therefore they will not drive off the cliff. Therefore they will not use this "nuclear option" to get by the 60 vote thing now.


This theory predicts what will actually happen. Further, when it does happen, it predicts you or other apologists will come up with alternative narratives that still disclaim this theory.

Because, y'know, just having Randi present queers Gellar's psychic vibes, and not that they don't exist.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Its dead people. The Democrats cannot agree on anything, and honestly many of them didn't want to vote for it anyway. The Republicans will simply run an obstructionist party, blocking any and all legislation until November. And then they win big time.

You don't need the majority of the people, you need the base. Republicans have purged their party, and their base is strong, lean, and on the offensive. They don't need answers, they don't need a plan; all they need to do is sit back and say no. The Democrats will destroy themselves.

Once enough seats are lost the talking point will be a comparison between Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter....then game over the Democrats for 2012. Game over for Health Care reform for at least a decade, and even then it will fail using the same tactics.

The Democrats only have themselves to blame. Health Care Reform would have been a tough sell no matter what given the money behind the status quo, and the fact that the Democrats made it their Golden Calf didn't help matters any. I predict that within the next month or two Pelosi will hold a press conference, talk bad about the Republicans, say that "This isn't over, but we need to move on to the business of running the country" as an attempt to save face. It will be too late, there will be no reforms, and the American people will chalk Obama up to "meet the new boss same as the old boss." The Democrats will not be able to mobilize their people, and the Tea Baggers/Tea Partyers will. Any hope for change has been officially sacrificed upon the altar of bipartisanship.