Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
- Thread starter DOC
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Mojo
Mostly harmless
Is this going to lead to DOC once again citing his 1,566 posts in this thread as evidence?
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
I think if you were martyred for that belief like 11 of the 12 apostles and it was discovered that Ganesha is responsible writings that that someone like Jefferson basically says are the most moral and sublime in history then it might have similiar value.
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
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On that last part, the power part, they would not disagree.Originally Posted by amb
Some here like yours truly doesn't even believe there ever was a historical Jesus, let alone an exalted one with the power of the universe in his grasp.
You've got the right to your opinion, but most historians would disagree.
Paul
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Oooh! A sweepstake!
My pick is "Appeal to Authority"
What do I win?
Hey DOC! Guess who this is?
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kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
To be fair, the concept of a historic Jesus (that is a man, named Jesus, living in the middle east, during the time of the Roman occupation, that was an itinerant preacher) is not an extrodinary claim. There's enough evidence that there were itinerant preachers, and Jesus was a very common name at the time.
That Jesus, as presented in the Bible, existed. THAT'S the extraordinary claim. To prove that he was the Son of God, you first have to prove the existance of God. However, since God is said to exist outside the physical reality that we know, you cannot prove his existance, so you're stuck. It'll take a Mount Everest of truely extraordinary evidence to prove that one.
That Jesus, as presented in the Bible, existed. THAT'S the extraordinary claim. To prove that he was the Son of God, you first have to prove the existance of God. However, since God is said to exist outside the physical reality that we know, you cannot prove his existance, so you're stuck. It'll take a Mount Everest of truely extraordinary evidence to prove that one.
kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
There are many references about Psalm 22 (aka the Crucifixion Psalm) on the net. Here is one that talks of Psalm 22 and other some other prophesies.
From the site titled: Fulfilled Prophecy, Jesus Christ, Modern Israel, Armaggedon, The Papacy & Vatican, Early Christians, Hell
He will be forsaken and deserted by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).He will be accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60). He will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). He will be wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26). He will be hated without cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25). He will be struck and spit on (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67). He will be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5,48). He will collapse from weakness (Psalm 109:24-25; Luke 23:26). He will be taunted with specific words (Psalm 22:6-8; Matthew 27:39-43). People will shake their heads at Him (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39). People will stare at Him (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35). He will be executed among sinners (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38). His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33). He will pray for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34). His friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49). His garments will be divided and won by the casting of lots (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24). He will thirst (Psalm 69:21; John 19:28). He will be given gall and vinegar (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34). He will commit Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46). His bones will be left unbroken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33). His heart will rupture (Psalm 22:14; John19:34) His side will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34). Darkness will come over the land at midday (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45). He will be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60). On the third day after His death, He will be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) and ascend to heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9). Source: Beyond Belief to Convictions, chapter four, by Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler.
http://www.latebreakingreality.com/fulfilled-bible-prophecy.html
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Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Ample rewards, both!
I should have been more clear in my 'extraordinary claim' post. I was taking issue with the 'most historians' that DOC was referencing, and thought he might have been making a little tiny sweeping statement.
Shock! Horror!
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You do know of the "Jefferson Bible", where he threw out all the magic stuff, it is a thin book.
Paul
Yes, but I still think the overall pluses outweigh the minuses for bringing up that fact.
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Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
So, is it possible that the people who wrote the New Testament, who were Jewish by birth, knew these things and while writing the events of the day, they may have...embellished the reality?
Of course some of the "prophesy" is just describing human nature. Let see, you have a person that the State has declared to be a criminal who's on public trial, you think maybe, just maybe the crowd will taunt him? That they'll be staring at him as he's led through the crowd? His supporters may just distance themselves so they don't get caught up in the mix. And so on.
Some of the others in there are almost impossible to verify. "He will be hated without cause", for example. All we have are writing from his supporters. Maybe he was a real wanker, a complete knee-biter. Maybe that whole fig tree incident was a glimpse at the real Jesus? Maybe he was hated because he was a despicable human being. The Rasputin of his day. If that's the case, the rest of it falls into place.
You have this jackass, wandering around, causing trouble everywhere he goes with his band of merry miscreants. The State finally catches up with him, after one of his own has a change of heart and decides to do the right thing and turn the jackass in. Now, this guy has gone around disrupting the local economy, killing livestock and the local flora, rubbing dirt into blind peoples' eyes and generally making a nuscience of himself. Of COURSE the gathered crowds will be a bit POed at him. Crucifixion is too good for him, he should have been kept in prison until the elextric chair was invented, then fried.
Of course some of the "prophesy" is just describing human nature. Let see, you have a person that the State has declared to be a criminal who's on public trial, you think maybe, just maybe the crowd will taunt him? That they'll be staring at him as he's led through the crowd? His supporters may just distance themselves so they don't get caught up in the mix. And so on.
Some of the others in there are almost impossible to verify. "He will be hated without cause", for example. All we have are writing from his supporters. Maybe he was a real wanker, a complete knee-biter. Maybe that whole fig tree incident was a glimpse at the real Jesus? Maybe he was hated because he was a despicable human being. The Rasputin of his day. If that's the case, the rest of it falls into place.
You have this jackass, wandering around, causing trouble everywhere he goes with his band of merry miscreants. The State finally catches up with him, after one of his own has a change of heart and decides to do the right thing and turn the jackass in. Now, this guy has gone around disrupting the local economy, killing livestock and the local flora, rubbing dirt into blind peoples' eyes and generally making a nuscience of himself. Of COURSE the gathered crowds will be a bit POed at him. Crucifixion is too good for him, he should have been kept in prison until the elextric chair was invented, then fried.
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
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