BBC - If God exists, why did he allow the Haiti earthquake

[roger]

And **** off to the 1.5M without homes now?


Nice way to prove a point.

 

[Bloodtoes]

The answer of course is that the haitians made a pact with the devil. True story.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

My Christian cousins patiently explain to me that all of the pain, suffering, and misfortune in the world is due to the existence of sin in the world. In heaven, they tell me, there will be no sin, neither the opportunity, nor desire to sin. Ergo, no pain, suffering... etc.

This explanation seems satisfactory to them.

DC

So God rigged the world so that disobedience of His rules causes tectonic movements that in turn cause earthquakes that kill people? "You flip light switches on a Saturday? Eat tsunami, you sinful beast!"

Also seems to me that either God believes in some strange sort of collateral punishment, or that the people of certain parts of the world sin more than others, because we haven't had a proper tsunami or quake or asteroid impact in Scandinavia for oh, quite a number of years. Wonder what we have that, say, the Japanese lack.

If God exists, why did he allow the Haiti earthquake?
...
to prove that death is not the worst fate
death proves life
if we lived in an immortal paradise forever
we would not value life

I don't believe anyone proposed we should live in an immortal paradise forever and/or that this world should be 100% free of pain. Strange that so many reply in this manner when someone asks why catastrophic earthquakes and whatnot happen.

 

[roger]

I would take it very kindly, very kindly indeed, if we could merely have a schedule of all of the impending major natural disasters for the next 100 years.

 

[Elizabeth I]

My Christian cousins patiently explain to me that all of the pain, suffering, and misfortune in the world is due to the existence of sin in the world. In heaven, they tell me, there will be no sin, neither the opportunity, nor desire to sin. Ergo, no pain, suffering... etc.

This explanation seems satisfactory to them.

DC

Sin causes earthquakes? I'd love to see the equations to express that new geological/cosmological principle.

If God exists, why did he allow the Haiti earthquake?
...
to prove that death is not the worst fate
death proves life
if we lived in an immortal paradise forever
we would not value life
with the same
exquisite aftertaste
that the possibility of death inspires
...
that does not mean one should pursue death and sin as the pedophile suggests
...
down exists because up requires it to
but birds do not need to fly headfirst into the ground to prove this
...
;-j

Huh? We still have the possibility of death, and I have to say I think most people value their lives pretty highly. There's no need for a "loving" god to bring houses down on top of babies to remind us of the preciousness and impermanence of life.

Maybe you should stop breathing that water. It doesn't seem to be allowing enough oxygen to get to your brain.

 

[Red3]

If God exists, why did he allow the Haiti earthquake?
...
to prove that death is not the worst fate
death proves life
if we lived in an immortal paradise forever
we would not value life
with the same
exquisite aftertaste
that the possibility of death inspires
...
that does not mean one should pursue death and sin as the pedophile suggests
...
down exists because up requires it to
but birds do not need to fly headfirst into the ground to prove this
...
;-j

So he just picked on the Haitians indiscriminately? Or would there be a point to his choosing an already downtrodden and suffering nation? Perhaps he's just a cruel prick...

 

[roger]

So he just picked on the Haitians indiscriminately? Or would there be a point to his choosing an already downtrodden and suffering nation? Perhaps he's just a cruel prick...

You just don't get it. Apparently it feels so good to savour the death of hundreds of thousands, and misery of millions. It's exquisite!

 

[Red3]

You just don't get it. Apparently it feels so good to savour the death of hundreds of thousands, and misery of millions. It's exquisite!

Well, if god does exist that explains his actions since, oh...forever.

 

[Maia]

This reminds me of a thread I started a while back about the Book of Job... it was based on the true-to-life case of a resident at the LTC and hospice where I work. Let's call him "Bob". "Bob" is there basically for med management, and he takes 5 different pain meds (alone, not counting the other meds!) every day. AND he's one of the few who doesn't have any dementia, which makes the whole thing worse. He has progressive immunoarthritis syndrome, and his wife has cancer, and his best friend (down the hall) is dying of throat cancer. Anyway, he reads Job a lot, and I think he has a pretty standard Christian understanding of it-- and the way I look at it, he's earned the right to interpret it however he wants-- but I've always thought it's a fascinating book from a secular POV, which is what we discussed in that thread.

The ultimate message, I think, is that suffering comes to the just and the unjust alike. Job demands an answer from God, and God really can't give him one (he just shows up and blusters around.) Job is sort of compensated by having the wife, the kids, the property, the goats, etc., all replaced, but none of that makes up for what he's lost. Later attempts to fit a specifically Christian interpretation on Job are ridiculous, because this book was written when Judaism didn't even have any specific concept of an afterlife; rewards and punishments had to happen now or not at all. Finally, the mystery of suffering is unsolvable; even though people will never stop trying to solve it, they are asking a question that has no answer.

 

[roger]

But it does have an answer!

Life formed a few billion years ago, it evolved, and here we are, being tossed about, doing our best, and frequently failing.


Easy peasy.

 

[fuelair]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8467755.stm

Kind of an interesting article, in that the author (philosopher Bain) doesn't allow the religious to get away with hand waving arguments such as "God works in mysterious ways". I particularly like the quote from a US Bishop: "I have nothing to say that makes sense of this horror - all I know is that the message of the death and resurrection of Jesus is that he is with us". Not that I agree with the quote (being atheist) but at least he is intellectually honest enough to admit he cannot explain it. Yes, one would wish that he'd take the next step in reasoning, but if horses were vicious, rides would go begging, or something like that.

However, when I read all this, it still strikes me just how simplistic and silly all the reasoning is. Bad things make us good. So, should I go rape your daughter - it'll make you grow spiritually!

The comments are particularly lamentable. One person suggests the 'solution' of buddhism - the people are being punished for what they did in their past life. This sound moral to this person!!! Punish somebody for something they did when 1) they don't remember doing it 2) can't learn anything from the punishment.

It's just all so ugly. I don't understand how people can think such things make an ounce of sense.

Didn't Pat Robertson already cover this?

 

[Maia]

But it does have an answer!

Life formed a few billion years ago, it evolved, and here we are, being tossed about, doing our best, and frequently failing.


Easy peasy.

All right-- YOU go in and tell that to Bob! He's in Room 34. Here's his breakfast tray, and don't forget the two coffees and one of those bibs that snaps in back.

Oh, okay, I don't tell Bob anything, as it would be an ethical boundary violation. Bob just has to come to the answers himself.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Just because Bob would be unhappy with the answer, doesn't make it any less so. I mean, I was rather unfortunate to hear that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist after all, and... well, ok, ok, I'm still trying to prove those doubters wrong

 

[roger]

Didn't Pat Robertson already cover this?

In a really (and I do mean really) weird way, I find his version much more palatable than much of the tortured logic used to explain these things.

There's a magic sky daddy. You pissed him off. He slapped you down.


Makes more sense than an all loving, all knowing god that for some reason cannot reveal himself, but if you look he reveals himself, but he can't do anything to help because that would reveal himself, and his plan is wonderful, but you can't know about it, but you can somehow nevertheless know that it exists, and that it is good, even though you aren't supposed to know about it, but of course you'll go to hell if you don't know about it, and that this goodness somehow requires 2 million casualties.

 

[GanipGnop]

Here's Why

Stan: Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my fr-f-f-friend. Why can't God take someone else's f-f-friend?

Chef: [sighs] Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?

Stan: But then, why does God give us anything to start with?

Chef: Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then it would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power. [pause]

Stan: I thnk I understand.

 

[Soapy Sam]

He doesn't.
Earthquakes are caused by fairies shifting coal.

 

[Sledge]

Sin causes earthquakes? I'd love to see the equations to express that new geological/cosmological principle.

Sex can cause earthquakes, if you're doing it right.

I don't know why religious people don't just acknowledge that their god is chaotic evil, and the reason to worship is the hope that he'll leave you alone or grant you a quick death.

 

[a3sigma]

Sin causes earthquakes? I'd love to see the equations to express that new geological/cosmological principle.

Apparently, they believe that God inflicts these catastrophes, seemingly at random, in order to terrify the rest of us into a deeper appreciation of our sinfulness and helplessness in the face of His mighty power. I guess the idea is that if we're sufficiently frightened by the suffering of others, we'll pray, and repent, and beg to be spared a similar fate. That this is somehow pleasing to Him, and if we're humble and abject enough, He may cut us some slack in this world or the next.

DC

 

[Maia]

Just because Bob would be unhappy with the answer, doesn't make it any less so.

Oh no, it doesn't. However, there is that little NASW Code of Ethics thing about how I can't tell him what I think any "answer" is. Also, you do have to admit, Bob has the necessary street cred to pick the answer he wants. He's right down there with Job when it comes to suffering. Either he'll come to it himself, or he won't.

 

[Ladewig]

If God exists, why did he allow the Haiti earthquake?
...
to prove that death is not the worst fate
death proves life
if we lived in an immortal paradise forever
we would not value life
with the same
exquisite aftertaste
that the possibility of death inspires
...
that does not mean one should pursue death and sin as the pedophile suggests
...
down exists because up requires it to
but birds do not need to fly headfirst into the ground to prove this
...
;-j

It's all word salad.