Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

No, it's a moving graphic display of the undeniable fact that an average human skeleton can fit Patty.

Not her elbow reach......

When you visit Bobby-Boo, you can take a thousand pictures of him, with and without padding.......and never will you be able to produce ONE image of Bob that will replicate the same elbow position, and reach, relative to his backbone, as seen in these images of Patty.


NEVER. I guarantee it, kitakaze.

But please try.....and bring your Fric and Frac dolls along, for "good luck". They're absolutely magical!

 

[Óðinn]

Sweaty, here are the two images for you again...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=314&pictureid=1925[/qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=314&pictureid=1927[/qimg]

Now you're going to need to fetch a ruler or measuring tape to answer the three following questions...

1) What is the measurement in cm or inches of the shoulder to elbow line on both images of Bob?

2) What is the measurement in cm or inches of the shoulder line to top of head in both Bob images?

3) What is the measurement in cm or inches of the shoulder width of both images of Bob?

If the numbers in numbers in the three questions above match each other, how is it possible that I have significantly mis-scaled them?

Here's the approx. scaling. Take a common body part and match their lengths. (click to animate)



You can also match Patty's humerus bone to synchronize their scale.

 

[kitakaze]

With regards to the image in the quote box above....as I have shown before......the Poser 7 skeleton does not fore-shorten anywhere near the amount that it MUST fore-shorten, in accordance with the amount of change in the angle-of-view it undergoes, from Bob to Patty....(approximately 30-40 degrees).

You know who can bail you out here, Sweaty? Slatty McPosty! Get that bad boy in here. Take a picture of Slatty viewed straight on and measure the "shoulder" width. Turn Slatty the exact degree to match Patty as in those shots and measure again and let's see how messed the overlays really are.

1st) The Poser 7 skeleton on Patty does not cover her full apparent width. It's short by about 20 pixels.

That's nice.

1) Poser 7 is not supposed to be a perfect fit, only an approximation showing that a human could fit Patty. Altering the bones to fit will not take the skeleton out of normal human range.

2) Shoulder pads will make a siginificant difference in this scenario. You are intentionally ignoring that fact. That is what you do to maintain your fantasy.

2nd) The Poser 7 skeleton only shortens by about 2 or 3 pixels from Bob to Patty.....while it MUST fore-shorten...(according to the Cosine figure for an angle of approx. 40 degrees).....by an amount of approx. 40 pixels.

Show me how much it must foreshorten. Tell me why DAZ confirms Poser 7? Are these two separate physics engines failing impossibly in the exact same way? Tell me why you ignore the Poser 7 animation? Why not repeat the process yourself? Both mangler and neltana have given you everything you need to replicate what they've done? Why do you not do that? Why do you insist on scribbles on blobs?

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

How did you establish you measurements, Sweaty?

I "established" my "measurements" by "taking" my "measurements"....with "measuring tools".

How can we go about verifying them and knowing them to be factual?

I don't care if you can verify, or know that my measurements are "factual".

I don't care what you think....about anything.


If you have the ability to find errors in my measurements/graphics....then please, FEEL FREE to enlighten the world as to precisely where, and to what extent there are errors in them.

Go for it, kitty!

 

[kitakaze]

kitakaze wrote:

Not her elbow reach......

[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty%20Elbow%20Analysis/PattyBobElbowRangeMeasured5.jpg[/qimg]

When you visit Bobby-Boo, you can take a thousand pictures of him, with and without padding.......and never will you be able to produce ONE image of Bob that will replicate the same elbow position, and reach, relative to his backbone, as seen in these images of Patty.


NEVER. I guarantee it, kitakaze.

But please try.....and bring your Fric and Frac dolls along, for "good luck". They're absolutely magical!

Yes, about that elbow reach thing...

This is a perfect example of Sweaty "analysis". Let's measure an elbow span. I know! Let's take images of Bob and Patty cut them somewhere in the middle-ish, make a Rorschach Bob and Rorschach Patty, then start making measurements like they're the real thing.

I have an important question, Sweaty. Exactly what is the length in centimeters or inches of Patty's elbow span? Also, I would like to measure my elbow span to see if Patty's elbow span far exceeds mine and any other average human. How do I measure my own elbow span?

My limb length proportions and those of many real skeletons I've shown exceed Patty's proportions. Once again, how do I measure my elbow span and compare it to Patty?

Note that in response to the post of Vort's that I have quoted, Sweaty ignored the centrally important question of how he established the veracity of his 21-22 inch measurement and simply responded with a nuh-uh post. Why would Sweaty do this? Can he not verify his measurements? Does he not care to? Is he not interested in establishing verifiable facts about Patty?

How did you establish you measurements, Sweaty? How can we go about verifying them and knowing them to be factual?

Once again, Sweaty, how did you prove that "Patty's elbow measures about 21-22" away from her backbone, with her arm swung-out at only a 40-45-degree angle, approximately."?

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

1) Poser 7 is not supposed to be a perfect fit, only an approximation....

Well, it's approximately WRONG/FLAWED/INACCURATE/BOGUS/IN DEFIANCE OF ONE LAW OF PHYSICS.

 

[kitakaze]

I "established" my "measurements" by "taking" my "measurements"....with "measuring tools".

OK, what measuring tools and how did you employ them to conclude that "Patty's elbow measures about 21-22" away from her backbone, with her arm swung-out at only a 40-45-degree angle, approximately."? If you made such a specific measurement of Patty, I should be able to take that and use it as reference to know exactly how tall and wide Patty is. How did you achieve this wonderful thing that no footer before ever has?? You're amazing, Sweaty! Bigfootery first right here!

I don't care if you can verify, or know that my measurements are "factual".

I don't care what you think....about anything.

It needn't be about me at all. Sweaty. I mean people in general. How can anyone verify the measurement and proclamations you make? If the steps aren't repeatable than the conclusions are not scientific. That's the basic scientific principle. I can make up all sorts of crap but crap is what it is if others can't reproduce independently what conclusions I make. Why are you dodging that simple point? Sweaty analysis not working or what?

If you have the ability to find errors in my measurements/graphics....then please, FEEL FREE to enlighten the world as to precisely where, and to what extent there are errors in them.

Go for it, kitty!

I'm showing the errors all over the place and for some reason you won't even engage in the process of dealing with them. For example, I think that your elbow span stuff is foo foo. You tell me Patty's elbow span is 21-22 inches from her backbone. I want to test this. I want to see if my measurements exceed Patty, because in all other cases my proportions exceed Patty's. Yet for some reason you refuse to allow me the process of testing your methods conclusion.

You make whopper mistakes here all the time, really silly things like not being able to account for height discrepancies when slouching or the effects of padding on measurements. You can't just toss things out, call them facts, and ask people to prove you wrong. Try showing me how you established verified scale with the PGF to make any solid measurements and I will try and repeat the process.

 

[kitakaze]

Well, it's approximately WRONG/FLAWED/INACCURATE/BOGUS/IN DEFIANCE OF ONE LAW OF PHYSICS.

Typical Sweaty. Sweaty, here again is the post you responded to with everything you ignored in bold...

You know who can bail you out here, Sweaty? Slatty McPosty! Get that bad boy in here. Take a picture of Slatty viewed straight on and measure the "shoulder" width. Turn Slatty the exact degree to match Patty as in those shots and measure again and let's see how messed the overlays really are.



That's nice.

1) Poser 7 is not supposed to be a perfect fit, only an approximation showing that a human could fit Patty. Altering the bones to fit will not take the skeleton out of normal human range.

2) Shoulder pads will make a siginificant difference in this scenario. You are intentionally ignoring that fact. That is what you do to maintain your fantasy.



Show me how much it must foreshorten. Tell me why DAZ confirms Poser 7? Are these two separate physics engines failing impossibly in the exact same way? Tell me why you ignore the Poser 7 animation? Why not repeat the process yourself? Both mangler and neltana have given you everything you need to replicate what they've done? Why do you not do that? Why do you insist on scribbles on blobs?

Can you respond again to that post and not ignore the parts in bold? They are relevant to this discussion and it appears you can't deal with those points.

 

[kitakaze]

I can call Bob H tomorrow.I think he doesn't like being called at night.

Lucas, seeing how it is now night on the west coast and that you were signed in here late this afternoon, I'm wondering if you called Bob as we discussed. If you were too busy, please let me know.

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

Once again, Sweaty, how did you prove that "Patty's elbow measures about 21-22" away from her backbone, with her arm swung-out at only a 40-45-degree angle, approximately."?

I measured it.


I think it's pretty cool....in 42 years of analysis of the PG Film, nobody to date....as far as I know....has discovered this neat little aspect of Patty's body dimensions/proportions.


The extreme reach of Patty's elbows....(due to a combination of both a longer 'collar bone' and a longer 'upper arm bone')....proves definitively, with HARD, IRREFUTABLE numbers, that a human being of average body proportions could not possibly have been inside the alleged "Patty suit".



Due to the fact that kitakaze simply cannot accept, and deal with this reality, he is now engaging in a blitzkrieg of posting distorted comparisons, physics-defying CG skeletons....and general "smoke-show" ranting, in an attempt to avoid dealing with the measurements, directly.


To summarize what kitakaze cannot do...regarding the evidence I have presented....in many graphics, containing many measurements...

He cannot SHOW precisely where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the measurements, in any of my graphics.

He cannot SHOW, with real-world physical objects....or even with direct Patty-to-Bob comparisons....that Patty's and Bob's dimensions actually do match.

He cannot SHOW that Patty's and Bob's upper-torso widths match.....with anything, at all.....real, or computer-generated.



And, lastly....he cannot SHOW even ONE example of an 'average' human being....(scaled to Patty's height)....whose elbow-reach matches Patty's.




And neither can Vort.

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

2) Shoulder pads will make a siginificant difference in this scenario.

Thanks for the info!

 

[kitakaze]

Here's the approx. scaling. Take a common body part and match their lengths. (click to animate)

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_195034b526954a8f2c.gif[/qimg]

You can also match Patty's humerus bone to synchronize their scale.

Thanks, Óðinn. You'll have to teach me how to do that sometime.

That is what I did with my comparison but yours does a much better job at it. As we can see, there is no significant mis-scaling going on.

 

[kitakaze]

Thanks for the info!

Thanks for not addressing the point at all and demonstrating your complete unwillingness to participate in a debate with any measure of intellectual honesty. Thanks for continuing to ignore centrally relevant points of the discussion.

Here again is the post with the parts ignored bolded...

You know who can bail you out here, Sweaty? Slatty McPosty! Get that bad boy in here. Take a picture of Slatty viewed straight on and measure the "shoulder" width. Turn Slatty the exact degree to match Patty as in those shots and measure again and let's see how messed the overlays really are.

That's nice.

1) Poser 7 is not supposed to be a perfect fit, only an approximation showing that a human could fit Patty. Altering the bones to fit will not take the skeleton out of normal human range.

2) Shoulder pads will make a siginificant difference in this scenario. You are intentionally ignoring that fact. That is what you do to maintain your fantasy.

Show me how much it must foreshorten. Tell me why DAZ confirms Poser 7? Are these two separate physics engines failing impossibly in the exact same way? Tell me why you ignore the Poser 7 animation? Why not repeat the process yourself? Both mangler and neltana have given you everything you need to replicate what they've done? Why do you not do that? Why do you insist on scribbles on blobs?

A trite thanks does nothing to address the point that your arguments are flawed because they do not address the fact that shoulder padding will help account for the space that you are saying indicates a non-fit.

I see you are having difficulty actually address the things people are saying to you. Why is that?

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

Thank for not addressing the point at all and demonstrating your complete unwillingness to participate in a debate wityh any measure of intellectual honesty.

Thanks for continuing to ignore centrally relevant points of the discussion.

And thank you for not refuting the elbow-reach measurements.

You can't!

 

[kitakaze]

I measured it.


I think it's pretty cool....in 42 years of analysis of the PG Film, nobody to date....as far as I know....has discovered this neat little aspect of Patty's body dimensions/proportions.

What is it about the question that causes you to become conversationally dysfunctional? I'm just going to keep asking it...

OK, what measuring tools and how did you employ them to conclude that "Patty's elbow measures about 21-22" away from her backbone, with her arm swung-out at only a 40-45-degree angle, approximately."? If you made such a specific measurement of Patty, I should be able to take that and use it as reference to know exactly how tall and wide Patty is. How did you achieve this wonderful thing that no footer before ever has?? You're amazing, Sweaty! Bigfootery first right here!

You said that Patty's elbow measures about 21-22" away from her backbone, with her arm swung-out at only a 40-45-degree angle, approximately. I want to check your work. How can I do that? How did you establish a basic unit of measurement for Patty? What determined the scale? If you say Patty's elbow in an image is 21-22" away from her backbone, I want to know how you determined what sets an inch.

Do you have some kind of problem with the concept of verification and repeatability?

The extreme reach of Patty's elbows....(due to a combination of both a longer 'collar bone' and a longer 'upper arm bone')....proves definitively, with HARD, IRREFUTABLE numbers, that a human being of average body proportions could not possibly have been inside the alleged "Patty suit".

Yes, Sweaty. Your numbers are completely irrefutable. Being correct is not what makes them irrefutable. The fact that you refuse to show anyone how you arrived at them is what makes refuting them impossible.

How long is Patty's collar bone in cm or inches? How did you discern that under either a suit or flesh? How long in cm or inches is Patty's humerus? How did you discern that?

Not doing too well with these basic concepts, are you, Sweaty?

That's a nice little bizarro world you've set up for yourself.

Due to the fact that kitakaze simply cannot accept, and deal with this reality, he is now engaging in a blitzkrieg of posting distorted comparisons, physics-defying CG skeletons....and general "smoke-show" ranting, in an attempt to avoid dealing with the measurements, directly.

You haven't successfully demonstrated any of my comparisons to be distorted nor addressed any of the processes of how they can be shown to be distorted. Bust out Slatty McPosty. Follow the instructions mangler and neltana gave you to get working with a physics program. Physics program doing physics. It's a wild concept, I know.

Try actually explaining how two separate physics engines are failing in the impossibly coincidental bizarre way. Try actually addressing the full motion Poser 7 animation. You have that, right? You realize how that destroys all your scribbles on stills, right? You are in fact interested in the truth, yes?

To summarize what kitakaze cannot do...regarding the evidence I have presented....in many graphics, containing many measurements...

He cannot SHOW precisely where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the measurements, in any of my graphics.

I've made measurements and you can not possibly show them to be wrong. No, I won't show you anything about how I made them or established scale.

He cannot SHOW, with real-world physical objects....or even with direct Patty-to-Bob comparisons....that Patty's and Bob's dimensions actually do match.

He cannot SHOW that Patty's and Bob's upper-torso widths match.....with anything, at all.....real, or computer-generated.
And, lastly....he cannot SHOW even ONE example of an 'average' human being....(scaled to Patty's height)....whose elbow-reach matches Patty's.

Sweaty can't show what Patty's elbow span is in any standard unit of measurement. He can just say it but nowhere has he shown it. Sweaty can't show how I measure my own elbow span so as to compare it to Patty.

 

[kitakaze]

kitakaze wrote:



And thank you for not refuting the elbow-reach measurements.

You can't!

Absolutely right. No I can't. Not at all. You won't allow me or anyone else to refute your measurements. You're not interested in replication and you're not interested in science. Verification is not in your vocabulary. You're interested only in maintaining to yourself that Patty really is a Bigfoot no matter what the cost and by using whatever intellectually dishonest tactic will allow you to elude actual debate.

I might as well just communcate with you in Japanese and say you can't refute any of my arguments.

 

[kitakaze]

I can call Bob H tomorrow.I think he doesn't like being called at night.

Hi, Lucas. I see you've joined us tonight. Did you get a chance to make that call to Bob today?

 

[kitakaze]

He cannot SHOW precisely where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the measurements, in any of my graphics.

Oops for you, Sweaty. I have here a gobsmackingly obvious error in your measurements. In the following graphic you present Patty on the left as beeing seen from a 40° angle of view...

But in this post you present a graphic showing Bob Heironimus seen at an angle much closer to profile yet tell us that is Bob is at a 40° angle of view. These images can not possibly both be a 40° angle and thus there is a significant error in Sweaty's measurement.

You want a little salt for that, Sweaty?

 

[Vortigern99]

Sweaty, please address my posts #108 - 110 in this thread before stating that your conclusions are "irrefutable". I have in fact refuted them employing simple logic, reason, a willingness to accept reality, and, oh yes, a working grasp of the principles of anatomy, foreshortening, and photography.

 

[SweatyYeti]

Oops for you, Sweaty. I have here a gobsmackingly obvious error in your measurements. In the following graphic you present Patty on the left as beeing seen from a 40° angle of view...



But in this post you present a graphic showing Bob Heironimus seen at an angle much closer to profile yet tell us that is Bob is at a 40° angle of view.

These images can not possibly both be a 40° angle and thus there is a significant error in Sweaty's measurement.

Thanks, kitty.....you did find an error in my 'Bob Angled View' animated-gif.....although, it wasn't an error in one of my measurements, it was an error in looking-up the angle, in the Trig Table Chart that I've been using...


http://www.sosmath.com/tables/trigtable/trigtable.html


Here is a corrected version of the gif...

Here is a copy of the chart.....I was in the wrong column...(the Sine column, instead of the Cosine column).....when I 'scrolled down' to the .64 figure.

The angle associated with that .64 ratio...(as measured in the 2 overlaid views of Bob)....is 50-degrees...

You want a little salt for that, Sweaty?

No, thanks....I have no problem being an imperfect human being.


Now, keep up the good work, kitty....and find a significant error in my measurements of Patty's elbow-reach!