Split Thread Michael Mozina's thread on Dark Matter, Inflation and Cosmology

The pressure terms in the EM stress tensor are positive, not negative, so they cannot account for an acceleration of universal expansion.

I think I'm going to have to tackle your posts a few ideas at a time, starting with this one. What makes you think that "dark energy" even interacts with the "gravitational field" directly rather than say "indirectly"?

EM fields can certainly cause the acceleration of material objects, certainly it can accelerate plasma "universally" even inside our own solar system.

Suppose in our thought experiment that you and I happen to become a couple of observers, floating on the photosphere, watching protons and flying ions take off from the surface, and accelerate away toward the heliosphere. It's evidently a "universal acceleration" process because we can observe them flying off the surface. We notice too that the acceleration is continuous for our field of vision and the continue to accelerate as they leave the surface.

According to your statements, the EM field cannot be responsible for this universal acceleration, but that is exactly what *IS* causing that acceleration.
 
You are completely ignoring the posts where we show that the observed "cosmic acceleration" cannot be either EM or baryonic.

No, I'm ignoring it because you're making a host of 'assumptions' when you make that claim, none of which can be verified.

Your priorities are backwards.

Not at all. IMO it is your priorities that are completely "backwards". Rather than *trying* to come up with an empirical solution (by changing initial conditions for instance), you're absolutely, positively intent on *not trying* to find an empirical solution to your acceleration problem and avoid the one known force of nature that 'might' give you an empirical answer.

Let's talk turkey here and set some real initial conditions for your "creation event". Did the object have mass prior to the "bang"? If so, was it "charged"?
 
Suppose in our thought experiment that you and I happen to become a couple of observers, floating on the photosphere, watching protons and flying ions take off from the surface, and accelerate away toward the heliosphere.

Not uniform at all. They're all moving parallel to each other; there's a preferred vector direction. The only observer who thinks they're "all moving away" is one at the center of the Sun. An observer at the surface thinks that the wind is blowing straight up.

Not accelerating. A solar flare/solar wind/etc. leaves the surface of the Sun (where the fields and/or temperature gradients are strong) and then cruises. It's going basically the same speed at Pluto as it is at Earth. (You imagine it is accelerating only because you imagine that the Sun has a static charge which "repels" it. You are wrong.)
 
I think I'm going to have to tackle your posts a few ideas at a time, starting with this one. What makes you think that "dark energy" even interacts with the "gravitational field" directly rather than say "indirectly"?

The only dark "energy" model I'm familiar with is the cosmological constant ("lamba") model. The cosmological constant term is a term in the Einstein Field Equations, which are the equations governing gravitation in GR. Other dark energy models, I'd presume, contain some sort of field that contributes to the stress-energy tensor, which is the source of gravitation in GR. Either way, the constant/field interacts directly with gravity in GR.

EM fields can certainly cause the acceleration of material objects,

This may be where some confusion is arising. The word "acceleration" is being used with two different meanings. When an object is accelerated, its velocity with respect to some reference frame is being changed. This is a simple mechanics concept. When someone says that "universal expansion is accelerating", they're not referring to this mechanics concept. They're stating that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing. In both cases, the rate of change of a rate of change is being referred to, which is why the word "acceleration" is used in both cases.

EM fields can certainly change the velocity of charged particles with respect to an inertial observer, but they cannot increase the rate of expansion of the universe.
 
Not uniform at all. They're all moving parallel to each other; there's a preferred vector direction. The only observer who thinks they're "all moving away" is one at the center of the Sun. An observer at the surface thinks that the wind is blowing straight up.

Fine, we'll change our initial observation point if you prefer.

Not accelerating.

Yes, accelerating. It's a "continuous full sphere" process, not just a single flare event!

A solar flare/solar wind/etc. leaves the surface of the Sun (where the fields and/or temperature gradients are strong) and then cruises.

Some particles perhaps, but solar wind "ACCELERATION" is a full sphere, continuous process. It's not something you will or can explain with only flares. Even those are "EM" acceleration events.
 
The only dark "energy" model I'm familiar with is the cosmological constant ("lamba") model.

It's probably the only place it's used, so that's understandable, but you're going to have to "think outside the box" a bit if we're going to entertain other "options".

Start with solar wind acceleration. It's a form of constant acceleration of "plasma", sometimes including heavy ions. Is that "dark energy" doing that constant acceleration of mass?
 
Start with solar wind acceleration. It's a form of constant acceleration of "plasma", sometimes including heavy ions. Is that "dark energy" doing that constant acceleration of mass?

I'm very confused regarding your train of thought.

Dark energy models are meant to give a theoretical explanation for the observed increase in the rate at which the universe is expanding. They have nothing to do with mechanical acceleration.

I also am not sure what this "solar wind acceleration" is nor where it's coming from.
 
I'm very confused regarding your train of thought.

Dark energy models are meant to give a theoretical explanation for the observed increase in the rate at which the universe is expanding. They have nothing to do with mechanical acceleration.

I also am not sure what this "solar wind acceleration" is nor where it's coming from.

With your background in GR, you might find these papers helpful to explain my position:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601171
http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.3536

I've simply looked to nature to find a working "real" physical example of a constant mass acceleration process. It's an example of a working physical process where you might try plugging in a test particle into those GR formulas. When you do you'll notice that the expansion process is continuous, and for awhile at least, acceleration occurs as well. We don't need to resort to new forms of energy to explain a constant expansion, and a continuous acceleration of mass/plasma. The EM field does that 24/7, 365 days a year.
 
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Yes, accelerating. It's a "continuous full sphere" process, not just a single flare event!

Your "continuous sphere process" hypothesis is not supported by the data. You are making it up. All of our deep space plasma probes (Pioneer, Voyager) show that the solar wind cruises through the Solar System at a more or less constant velocity. It is not speeding up uniformly on the way to Pluto. Look at the damn data.

I repeat my request: please cite an EM field configuration (not a vague analogy, not a terella photo---a vector field I can plug into Maxwell's Equations) that you think could be causing the Universe to accelerate.
 
Your "continuous sphere process" hypothesis is not supported by the data. You are making it up.

Ya, it's called a "thought experiment" ben. I "made up" that part about floating on the photosphere and being in the core of the sun too. :) It's an analogy ben.

All of our deep space plasma probes (Pioneer, Voyager) show that the solar wind cruises through the Solar System at a more or less constant velocity.

No, even that is a very oversimplified statement too as you well know. Solar storms change solar wind densities and velocities all the time. The polar regions tend to experience a higher velocity of solar wind than the equator. It's not "constant velocity" by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not speeding up uniformly on the way to Pluto.

Is is for purposes of my "analogy", or it's at least accelerating for some "short distance within our view from the photosphere".

Look at the damn data.

Look at it as an "analogy" ben.

I repeat my request: please cite an EM field configuration (not a vague analogy, not a terella photo---a vector field I can plug into Maxwell's Equations) that you think could be causing the Universe to accelerate.

I don't need a vague analogy to demonstrated full sphere acceleration from a sphere in a vacuum. Birkeland did that in a real lab with real "empirical physical things", not "dark energy".

Ben the sun is a complicated environment. I was simply blowing s-dawg's claim away about the EM field not being able to sustain a constant acceleration. Even if the solar wind isn't accelerating ben, it's still pulling away from a gravity well and defying "gravity". If we created two test particles leaving different places on the solar surface, as they travel towards the heliosphere, the distance between them will increase over time. *IF* we assume a constant acceleration for some distance, then even a particle in front of us is moving faster than we are and it's moving away from us due to it's greater velocity. Even the particles behind us on the same path from the photosphere will be traveling slower than we are in a continuous acceleration scenario. Yes ben, it's a "make believe" scenario in terms of constant acceleration. On the other hand the sun *DOES* experience constant acceleration of charged particles as that continuous flow of mass demonstrates. It doesn't matter how it gets to "terminal velocity", from the standpoint of the observer in the core of the sun (no I've never actually gone there. :) ) there is constant flow of mass from a central point, and it's due to the influence of the EM field that your said could not generate that process.
 
I was simply blowing s-dawg's claim away about the EM field not being able to sustain a constant acceleration.

You might do well to pay attention to what people are actually saying, especially when they take the time to point out potential ambiguities and to clarify them. It's understandable that other people on this board would be frustrated with this habit of yours.

It seems from the papers you posted that your position is that the apparent recession of galaxies is due to actual movement through space as opposed to metric expansion, the expansion being the standard explanation. It would have saved time for you to have actually stated this.

I have to go now, so I'll leave my post at this.
 
It seems from the papers you posted that your position is that the apparent recession of galaxies is due to actual movement through space as opposed to metric expansion, the expansion being the standard explanation. It would have saved time for you to have actually stated this.

I would be mildly cautious of this. Exactly how you translate the metric expansion into 'plain English' is somewhat contentious. I'd certainly not criticise someone for claiming that recession of galaxies is due to movement through space.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.1081v1 and http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4573v1 go into some of this, and there's more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

Fortunately, while the interpretation is open to some discussion, the mathematics of it and the predictions of observable quantities from GR are not - it's all quite solid.
 
I would be mildly cautious of this. Exactly how you translate the metric expansion into 'plain English' is somewhat contentious. I'd certainly not criticise someone for claiming that recession of galaxies is due to movement through space.

(links)

Fortunately, while the interpretation is open to some discussion, the mathematics of it and the predictions of observable quantities from GR are not - it's all quite solid.

Thanks for the warning. I suppose I didn't really put as much thought into this as I should have. The expanding space v. movement thing is certainly beyond my knowledge to comment on, so I should probably step down here. But I'll definitely take a look at those papers.
 
What is "dark energy", really?

Well, everybody (including Mozina) seems to at least accept that the accelerating expansion interpretation of cosmological data is reasonably acceptable (source papers: Riess, et al., 1998, Perlmutter, et al., 1999 and the several thousand references thereto). Generally speaking, the words "dark energy" are nothing more than a place-holder for whatever it is that causes the accelerating expansion. This may be an unfortunate choice of words, for if the cause is found to be, for instance, a cosmological constant, then it is not "energy" at all, at least in classical general relativity, but rather simply an artifact of the geometry of space. Of course, given a quantum theory of general relativity one might reconsider the cosmological constant as a true force.

Now, given that we accept an accelerating expansion, what can we hold responsible for this? If we are constrained to stick tightly only to the physics we know well, then we can start with the realization that there are only 4 known "forces": gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong & weak nuclear forces. If it's not one of these 4 forces that causes the accelerating expansion of the universe, then I think it is safe to say that "physics as we know it" is not responsible, and "new physics" must be derived to explain the observations.

Classical Maxwellian electromagnetism can be ruled out at once by the simple observation that the expansion treats charged particles (i.e., plasma) and neutral material in identical fashion. I don't know how to get classical electromagnetic fields to couple to neutral matter with the same strength as they couple to electrically charged matter, and I am unaware of anyone else professing an ability to describe this. However, there are polarization states in quantum electrodynamics that do not couple to electric charge, but only via gravity. These electromagnetic states are under investigation by some groups as a plausible physical basis for "dark energy" and the accelerated expansion of the universe (i.e., Novello, et al., 2004; Jimenez & Maroto, 2009a; Jimenez & Maroto, 2009b and Labun & Rafleski, 2008).

The data are most consistent with a cosmological constant in Einstein's equations being the root source of the accelerating expansion and therefore the physical basis of dark energy (i.e., Wood-Vasey, et al., 2007 and Davis, et al., 2007 and the numerous references thereto). A classical electromagnetic field cannot effectively mimic a cosmological constant since it couples strongly only to electric charges and not to neutral matter. Furthermore, a "cosmological constant" is so named because it is in fact constant in its effect throughout the entire universe. It's hard to imagine any realistic classical electromagnetic field owning up to such a stringent constraint.

There are hordes of papers on all aspects of dark energy, but a few good general treatments of the topic (or so it appears to me) are Basilakos, 2010; Clarkson, 2009; Urban & Zhitinsly, 2009; Sami, 2009a; Sami, 2009b. And see Freiman, Turner & Huterer, 2008 for an extensive review of the topic of dark energy, the most extensive recent review that I am aware of.

So it is my position that the lack of strong coupling between classical electromagnetic fields and neutral matter, along with the requirement that the accelerating effect be constant (at least within observational constraints) throughout the universe, leads to a confident ruling out of classical electromagnetic fields as the physical basis for dark energy.
 
Moving Through Space

I'd certainly not criticise someone for claiming that recession of galaxies is due to movement through space.
But we still cannot violate special relativity in the rest frame of the distant galaxy. So the interpretation of "moving through space" is really only a convenience for the distant observer, is it not?
 
We're broadly in agreement RC, but this isn't entirely accurate. Dark energy is a specific class of potential causes of acceleration - it's basically any negative pressure component of the energy density.

I stand corrected.
 
But we still cannot violate special relativity in the rest frame of the distant galaxy. So the interpretation of "moving through space" is really only a convenience for the distant observer, is it not?

Yes and no, but anyway my point really is that it's not a useful line of argument to take - it's not clear to me if it makes an observable difference which way you think about it, and there are enough easily attacked arguments in play in this thread without it :)
 
You might do well to pay attention to what people are actually saying, especially when they take the time to point out potential ambiguities and to clarify them. It's understandable that other people on this board would be frustrated with this habit of yours.

It seems from the papers you posted that your position is that the apparent recession of galaxies is due to actual movement through space as opposed to metric expansion, the expansion being the standard explanation. It would have saved time for you to have actually stated this.

I have to go now, so I'll leave my post at this.


It is not you, it is MM. His theory is incoherent in many ways. You pointed out an inconsistancy, so then he will squirm.
 

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