UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Doesn't logical thinking send us into the thought bubble of "if it defies all laws of physics as we know it, and it was a manufactured object, then it cannot be made on earth?"
Two severe problems with this.
First off secret technologies don't have to be alien, also the average person knows little of what the limits are.
Secondly, did the person really observe what he or she thought they observed?

That is what I am struggling with- the deliberate and wilful suspension of that part of being human - the 'wonder factor'.
I understand what you are saying.

At an early age, I loved UFO shows and books, but then I noticed that the route that Rramjet has chosen doesn't actually lead to results, its a dead end. And while true science is merciless and hard, it does lead to results.
I even picked space as my main educational direction. I would have loved to have got a masters degree in astronomy, but I got only got so far as a bachelors degree in aerospace engineering. But still I am trying to make sure that someday I will get a job in the space industry.
 
Okay- this is the heart of the issue as far as I am concerned.

You observe something which defies all known laws of physics.


As you understand them. If you're Stephen Hawking, I'll give you a pass on understanding them all.

Otherwise, you're going to have to demonstrate that you do.


Isn't the nature of man, and his development, built to wonder?


Yup. Like for instance "I wonder what knowledge I lack to identify this thing."


Haven't some of the most amazing inventions been inspired by wonder?


And all of the greatest crocks, too. Wondering about stuff is good as far as it goes, but results are what really counts.

Robert Cocking wondered if he could build an upside-down parachute. Have a guess how that ended.


In your case, you probably have a good grasp of what is possible aeronautically.


Well I certainly do, and so do quite a number of posters here, but you seem to be happy to ignore that expertise. At least you're not outright denying that we have it.


Since this particular event transcended everything you knew about aeronautics, isn't leaving it at "I don't think it was an alien space ship.


That sort of thinking doesn't occur to sensible people, and this is your biggest mistake.

Unidentified does not mean 'probably not an alien ship' - it means 'unidentified'.

You need to stop your attempts to redefine this word, and realise that it's one of Rramjet's favourite but failed tactics as well.


I just think it was a UFO.", an abandonment of basic human wonder?


No, it's common sense, which unfortunately isn't anywhere near as common as it should be.


I think Rramjet posesses the spirit of wonder in spades, and isn't afraid to take his thinking to the next level, and postulate the alien existence theory.


My two-year-old niece possesses 'a spirit of wonder in spades' too. How much notice should I take of her postulates?


Doesn't logical thinking send us into the thought bubble of "if it defies all laws of physics as we know it, and it was a manufactured object, then it cannot be made on earth?"


No, and I'd be really worried about myself if it did.

The leaps of faith and non-critical thinking in the above paragraph are breathtaking.

The only 'obvious' conclusion for someone seeing something that defies all known laws of physics is that they don't in fact, understand all of those laws at all.

Which apparently, doesn't stop some people from still claiming that they do know everything about everything, and therefore there's no such thing as 'unidentified'. They fail dismally, but it's fun to watch sometimes.


That is what I am struggling with- the deliberate and wilful suspension of that part of being human - the 'wonder factor'.


The reason that you're struggling with it is simple. It's not happening, and you're chasing a strawman of your own and Rramjet's creation.
 
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I don't want to seem rude and heartless (but I am, so that's how it comes out), Snidely, but you seem to be saying that sceptics are taking all the fun out of UFOs. The thing is, I don't think any of us are averse to a bit of fun speculation on the possibility of alien life or even the possibility that it vistis Earth (check the Gay Rodeo stuff if you don't believe me). But the second someone says "Aliens are real, they visit Earth in what we call UFOs, and I have the evidence to prove it," all that fun speculation stops, we take off the clown shoes and put on the serious sceptic hat (I like to think it's a fedora). Do I have a sense of wonder? Yes. But it has no place in evaluating evidence.
 
you've never studied Mnemonics then or you'd know that it aids the memory of unfamiliar and surprising things only when deliberately associated with the unsurprising and familiar. In your case this would be by associating something youre clueless about, i.e. UFOs with something you are familiar with like sci fi.

;)

Your failure to understand the meaning of what is after all a very straightforward statement by me is no longer unfamiliar or surprising to me.

I stated that the unfamiliar and the surprising lie at the heart of Mnemonics - meaning that the unfamiliar and surprising are the key operands and Mnemonics is the example I provide to "prove" this. It is the unfamiliar and surprising that are key. For example:

Learning By Surprise
Novelty enhances memory. That fact has practical implications for educators
(http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=learning-by-surprise)

Thus when people observe UFOs, the surprise will enhance their memory of the event - and such "enhanced" events can indelibly last a lifetime.

So before you accuse others of being "clueless", perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the actual research rather than trusting your faith-based belief systems as they seem to be leading you astray.
 
So, where's that evidence, Rramjet? We're up to 105 pages, I think we've waited long enough.
 
I stated that the unfamiliar and the surprising lie at the heart of Mnemonics.


then perhaps you should link to something that says that rather than something that doesn't

your link has nothing to do with Mnemonics Rramjet, as I stated Mnemonics works by connecting the unfamiliar with something familiar so the two are connected in the mind making the unfamiliar easier to recall

so clearly this is simply another clue to how dishonest a person you really are as well as your low level of intellect and your arrogance that you would attempt to cover something you didn't know with an easily debunked lie. The fact that I spotted it within 20 seconds of reading your post is scientific evidence that I am more intelligent than you are by quite a margin as well, but thats never really been in any doubt has it

EPIC FAIL
:D
 
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You cannot make the statment in bold, and ignore the following:

a) You claim daylight - I have shown it was not daylight - but the end of twilight and then darkness, but you have so far refused to accept this fact and ignored it completely
b) 3 visible planets were in near alignment, namely Venus and Mars and Mercury, with Uranus thrown in - direction WNW
c) Weather was overcast, and stormy

First I did not “make the statement in bold” – it was YOU who added the emphasis and you should have acknowledged that… but of course dirty tactics I expect by now…

Second, you simplify into obscurity the actual case. There were TWO nights the object was observed on (and in fact there was MORE that one object).

a) The first night the sighting began at around 7 pm and this would have been dark, but the second night the sightings began around 6 pm, and this, according to the witnesses was not yet dark. Now we know that sunset was around 5:30 pm and the witness statements do not give a precise time when the sighting began, but if they say it was begun in daylight… then the time MUST have been BEFORE 6pm (and I think no amount of handwaving about “misinterpretation and delusion” by the UFO debunkers can make day into night!) Considering also that on the second night the witness statements indicated that it soon WAS dark - the reasonable interpretation is that the sighting actually began somewhat BEFORE their estimate of 6pm.

b)Indeed, but NOT on the first night – it was overcast on the first night.

“7:10--7:20 P.M. Sky now overcast at about 2,000 feet.” … “8:50--9:30 P.M. Clouds forming again. Large UFO stationary, others (about three) like disks coming and going through clouds, casting a light halo on the clouds. Large UFO moves away rapidly across sea toward Giwa.” … “11:04 P.M. Heavy rain.”​

Ah yes…planets that can come and go through the clouds casting halos on the clouds as they do so… of course!

But to refute “planets” I think that I should just post the transcript of the interview with father Gill – there are MANY clues as to why “planets” are NOT a plausible explanation:

Tape recorded interview by
The Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society &
The UFO Investigation Center of New South Wales.

Transcript of Father William Gill interview.

Q: Father Gill will you be kind enough to let us know the nature of your activities in recent years in Papua?

A: I have been on the staff of the Anglican Mission in Papua for thirteen years - my many interest up there has been educational work, and I have been working mainly on the north-east coast of Papua, in Goodenough Bay area, about ninety miles from Samaria Milne Bay.

Q: Father Gill, we understand you, or your mission folk, had a series of interesting experiences during the month of June -when, and on what days did these occur? Also what did you think about unidentified flying objects before your experience?

A: Until my sighting I thought UFOs were a figment of imagination or some electrical phenomenon. Well, the first sighting occurred over Waimera about twenty miles from us. It was observed by Dr. Ken Houston at a place called Waimera, near Tagora, and that was late November of last year. At Boianai itself, where I'm working, the first recorded incident was on the night of Sunday, 21st June. My own observations began on 26th June and extended over a number of days.

Q; Take them, then in date order, when did the first sighting that you saw occur?

A: That was on the 26th June, at 6.45 pm, and it continued until 11.04 p.m.

Q: Over which direction was the object seen?

A: Milne bay district, over Boianai.

Q: Did the object - appear solid? Metallic? Gaseous? Transparent?

A: Well, it appeared solid, certainly not transparent nor gaseous; we just assume it was metallic from our own experience of things that travel and carry men.

Q: Was any sound perceptible?

A: No.

Q: Did the object change colour?

A: yes, it changed from a brilliant white light when it was far off, to a dull yellow, or perhaps pale orange, when it was close.

Q: Did the object hover, or remain motionless at any time?

A: It both hovered and remained stationary.

Q: What was its speed in flight?

A: Much faster than a passenger plane.

Q: The height you mentioned was a couple of thousand feet.

Which of the following objects held at arm's length would you described as apparent size? - grapefruit?

A: Yes.

Q: describe the weather?

A: Well, the weather varied over the four hour period. I have recorded here. At the beginning, at 6.45 pm, there were patches of low cloud over Tagora and Menapi, that is west and east of us, and clear overhead. At 7.10 it was recorded that cloud ceiling overhead was at about 2000 feet... I may mention that at this time the object was under cloud over the west at Tagora. At 8.50 cloud was forming again overhead, and for the next hour or so there were patches of cloud over the sky, then at 10.50 we recorded we had heavy rain at 11.04 - that's when we finished the recording.

Q: What were you doing at the time you saw the object, and how did you happen to notice it?

A: I came out of the dining room after dinner and casually glanced at the sky with the purpose, I suppose, of seeing Venus. Well, I saw Venus bit also saw this sparkling object which was to me peculiar because it sparkled, and because it was very, very bright, and it was above Venus and so that caused me to watch it for a while, then I saw it descend towards us.

Q: Were there any witnesses to this?

A: yes, there were thirty-eight of us.

Q: What further remarks would you make regarding this first sighting of yours?

A: Well, of course, the whole thing was most extraordinary; the fact that we saw what appeared to be humans beings on it, I think, is the important thing. It is certainly the important and exciting thing to us. They were not noticeable at first - they came down, the object came down at about, I should say, 400 feet, maybe 450 feet, perhaps less, maybe 300 feet. It is very difficult to judge at that time of night and not having experience in measuring elevation, it's purely guess- work, but as we watched it, men came out from this object, and appeared on top of it on what seemed to be a deck on top of the huge disk. There were four men in all, occasionally two, then one, then three, then four - we noticed the various times that men appeared, and when one, two and three appeared and one and two, and then numbers one, three, four and two and so on. And then later all those witnesses who are quite sure that our records were right, they agreed with them, and saw these men at the same time as I did - they were able to sign their names as witnesses of what we assume was human activity or beings of some sort on the object itself.

Another peculiar thing about it was this shaft of blue light which emanated from what appeared to be the center of the deck. Now from time to time men, these men, seemed to be working at something on the deck; they'd bend forward and appear to manipulate something on the deck, and then straighten themselves up occasionally, would turn around in our direction, this blue light - rather like a thin spotlight emanated skywards to stay on for a second or two, and then switch off. I recorded the times that we saw that blue light come on and off - for the rest
of the night. After all that activity it ascended and remained very high.

Q: What did the craft look like?

A: Like a disk with smaller round superstructure, then again on top of that another kind of superstructure - round rather like the bridge on a boat. Underneath it had four legs in pairs pointing diagonally downwards these appeared to be fixed, not retractable, and looked the same on the two nights - rather like tripods. On second night the pencil beam came on again for a few seconds, twice in succession.

Q: Do you have any clues to the dimensions of the object?

A: I'm very poor mathematician but I, at time, dared to say that it was about thirty-five to forty feet at the base and perhaps twenty feet at the top.

Q: Did you try to establish contact with the pilots of the craft?

A: We did. As one of the men seemed to lean over as though over a rail and look down on us, I waved one hand overhead and the figure did the same as though a skipper on a boat waving to someone on a wharf. Couldn't see the rail but he seemed to lean over something with arms over it... could see him from just below waist up. Ananias, the teacher, waved both hands overhead and the two outside figures seemed to wave back - no doubt that movement made by arms was answered by the figures.

Q: What was the reaction by the native at signals?

A: Surprised and delighted. Small mission boys called out - everyone beckoned to invite the beings down but no audible responses....no expressions discernible on the face of the men - rather like players on a football field at night.

Q: Did the machine cause any noise?

A: No engine noise heard at any time by anyone during the whole series of sightings.

Q: We understand you tired to signal; the beings with a torchlight?

A: Yes, we flashed the light and the object swung like a pendulum, presumably in recognition. When we flashed the torchlight towards the ground and we actually thought it was going to land but it didn't. We were all very disappointed about that.
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/gillinterview.html)​


c) Now you claim the weather was overcast and stormy… your simplistic assessments are erroneous and misleading. Read the above transcript! Also Father Gill’s diary entries at (http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1998/jan/gill.html).
 
First I did not “make the statement in bold” – it was YOU who added the emphasis and you should have acknowledged that… but of course dirty tactics I expect by now…
I see the reading comprehension classes haven't helped any.

You did make the statement, and he bolded it so we could see exactly which statement he was referring to in context. No dirty tactics at all, but I doubt you'll acknowledge that.
 
a) The first night the sighting began at around 7 pm and this would have been dark, but the second night the sightings began around 6 pm, and this, according to the witnesses was not yet dark. Now we know that sunset was around 5:30 pm and the witness statements do not give a precise time when the sighting began, but if they say it was begun in daylight… then the time MUST have been BEFORE 6pm (and I think no amount of handwaving about “misinterpretation and delusion” by the UFO debunkers can make day into night!) Considering also that on the second night the witness statements indicated that it soon WAS dark - the reasonable interpretation is that the sighting actually began somewhat BEFORE their estimate of 6pm.
Please define "daylight". How much light does there have to be for it to be considered "daylight"? How high above the horizon does the Sun have to be?

You might want to look up the definitions of the various different states of twilight.
 
Cheers Wollery

No mention is made of "halos on clouds" in the transcript, why do you?

As for planets not being visible on an overcast/cloudy day, and should according to you be dismissed, even the beloved Father Gill admits to having spotted Venus in the transcript, on a day which you now admit was overcast.

Do you read what you are posting?

As for me claiming the weather was overcast, I am merely reporting the RAAF report:

Gill's account was dismissed by the RAAF despite its extraordinary nature and the number of witnesses. The senior interviewing officer, Squadron Leader F.A. Lang, concluded:

'Although the Reverend Gill could be regarded as a reliable observer, it is felt that the June/July incidents could have been nothing more than natural phenomena coloured by past events and subconscious influences of UFO enthusiasts. During the period of the report the weather was cloudy and unsettled with light thunder storm. Although it is not possible to draw firm conelusions, an analysis of rough bearings and angles above the horizon does suggest that at least some of the lights observed were the planets Jupiter, Saturn and Mars.

Light refraction, the changing position of the planet relative to the observer and cloud movement would give the impression of size and rapid movement. In addition varying cloud densities could account for the human shapes and their sudden appearance and disappearance'
 
Light refraction, the changing position of the planet relative to the observer and cloud movement would give the impression of size and rapid movement. In addition varying cloud densities could account for the human shapes and their sudden appearance and disappearance'

Plus, the UFO is once again, Blimp shaped
:D
 
Rramjet has helped us to the conclusion that all UFOs are blimps. What is this mysterious blimping organisation determined to conceal their very existence? What is their sinister motivation? And how are they connected to the tobacco industry? I don't know about you guys, but I'm making a tinfoil hat tonight.
 
I am not sure why the issue of daylight/sunset is an issue here. I have seen the planet Venus at noon and seeing it just before sunset is not difficult at all when Venus is near elongation (which appears to have happened on June 23, 1959).
 
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