Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Chris_Halkides]

dropout

Then quote the relevant parts please. It will no doubt show in detail from Dr Stefanoni's report what went wrong on this occasion

Fiona,

“Heterozygote peak imbalance is typically exacerbated due to stochastic PCR amplification, where one of the alleles is amplified by chance during the early rounds of PCR in a preferential fashion. Allele dropout can be thought of as an extreme form of heterozygote peak imbalance.” (Butler, page 169).

Have a look at the D7S820 locus in the electropherogram, and you will see what he means.

Chris

 

[Dan O.]

On the one hand Dr Stefanoni testified that there were controls: the tests were witnessed by the expert hired by the Kerchers: the protocols in place were confirmed by Biondi. On the other hand Dan_O says they were all lying or mistaken. You pays your money .....

Fiona, I did not say they were all lying. I've only said that without the documents I've requested it's not possible to assign any quantitative value to the results. I'm not just asking for evidence as a diversion, the numbers from the certification documents are exactly what is needed to complete the analysis and compute the odds that the result was not due to contamination.

 

[shuttlt]

Fiona, I did not say they were all lying. I've only said that without the documents I've requested it's not possible to assign any quantitative value to the results. I'm not just asking for evidence as a diversion, the numbers from the certification documents are exactly what is needed to complete the analysis and compute the odds that the result was not due to contamination.

Won't the defence have checked this?

 

[Fiona]

Fiona,

“Heterozygote peak imbalance is typically exacerbated due to stochastic PCR amplification, where one of the alleles is amplified by chance during the early rounds of PCR in a preferential fashion. Allele dropout can be thought of as an extreme form of heterozygote peak imbalance.” (Butler, page 169).

Have a look at the D7S820 locus in the electropherogram, and you will see what he means.

Chris

Yes I have read quite a bit about allele drop out etc. All good general background.

Where is the bit which directly addresses this case?

 

[Megalodon]

My interpretation of the defense’s position is that the prosecution’s claim of DNA being present is dubious, and even if the DNA were there, an innocent explanation for it exists.

An explanation with no corroboration whatsoever, which suggests that the accused was expecting DNA to be on the blade and made it up on the spot.

I do not see how the second half of this argument in any way invalidates the first. I would point out that if Sollecito is not telling the truth, possibilities (3) and (4), it does not necessarily follow that he is lying;

Hilarious...

the alternative is that he sincerely believes something that is not true (I call this a false memory).

Funny, I call it something that starts with bull, rhymes with pit and reminds us to look where we're stepping. False memories might explain short or traumatic events, but creating a false memory for the only dinner he ever shared with an acquaintance that happened to be murdered a short while afterward is to convenient.

Suppose a different situation existed: Kercher’s DNA is indisputably found on the knife. Sollecito says that neither he nor the other defendants killed her, and she never cooked with him. We would not say that his words exclude the knife as the murder weapon. Why would we say that his words identify the knife as the weapon in this case?

Because different things are different. In the possibility (not at all demonstrated in this case) that the other evidence is shown to be compromised, you have the statements of the accused.

If he says that the knife never touched the victim, you're stuck. He might be lying, but you have no way of knowing.

If he says the knife cut the victim during the preparation of a dinner, and her blood in the blade is to be expected, you have confirmation of the two elements being together at some point in time.

If the dinner is shown not to have existed, you can start wondering why the accused was expecting blood to be on the knife.

He might be lying against his own interests, but then he should come forward with the truth.

Finally, let us not forget that the kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet.

How was the outline produced?

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

About 380 years ago another Italian court tried to rule against physical reality, and it has been a public relations disaster for them ever since.

<snip>

Bad history. It wasn't an Italian court. It was a Church court. Among the reasons it was in Rome (and largely friendly) was to keep it out of the hands of the Spanish champions of the Church, who were really pissed.

Gotta give you credit for consistency in misrepresentation of the facts, though.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

more dropouts

Yes I have read quite a bit about allele drop out etc. All good general background.

Where is the bit which directly addresses this case?

Fiona,

You will need to look at the electropherogram. Besides the locus I already mentioned, you will see the same issue at the D19S433 locus. Sorry, this will have to be my last in-depth post for a while.

Chris

 

[Fiona]

Properly stated, A DNA profile matching the victim was found when the knife was processed. This part I have no dispute with. But how was the DNA sample extracted from the knife? We've seen a picture presumably of the knife and where this DNA was supposed to have been and there is no visible flaw or scratch. There is also a video of a lab technician removing the DNA material with a solvent soaked piece of cloth held by a pair of metal tweezers. This same lab has tested many articles soaked with Meredith's blood and the process of testing, the DNA is extracted and amplified through PCR. Unless extreme measures are taken,

Or the kinds of controls which are routinely used in labs testing for DNA, as it is more properly described

this DNA is going to contaminate everything in the lab.

So once again DNA testing of all kinds must be thrown out of all criminal cases everywhere: we have discussed this before

For instance, that pair of tweezers probably

You do have evidence for that, which overturns the fact that there has been no contamination in that lab in the last 7 years. I am dying to see it

has Meredith's DNA on them and it will be transfered to the solvent soaked cloth.

You can prove these tweezers were not sterile, presumably. Again this is the kind of evidence we want

In order to conclude that the DNA came from the knife, it is necessary to exclude the probable alternatives.

What is it that makes you say it is probable? Well I will see when you produce the basis for all these assertions, I am sure. You are such a tease holding out on us this way

The alternative of the DNA coming from elsewhere in the lab is properly excluded by running a control test using the same equipment and the same procedure but using a different test object that is not expected to have any DNA.

Such things you tell us!

If DNA shows up on the control, you know that your test was probably contaminated.

Well you got that right: and by the same token, if it doesn't you know it probably wasn't

Furthermore, when a lab routinely runs control tests they can develop a statistical model for the level of contamination expected in the lab after processing evidence.

And that is right too.

Quite simply, the lab in Italy did not run controls so their results have no scientific basis for accuracy.

At this point you are calling Dr Stefanoni a liar: I wonder whether she has been charged with perjury? Do you know?

ETA: you are also calling Torrecelli a liar by omission: because she was present when the tests were done and was satisfied. She could not have been satisfied if basic protocols were not in place and she should have said so in her evidence. Biondi testified that the protocols were satisfactory also: if there were no controls then this would be a lie and he too should be charged with perjury.

 

[Fiona]

Fiona,

You will need to look at the electropherogram. Besides the locus I already mentioned, you will see the same issue at the D19S433 locus. Sorry, this will have to be my last in-depth post for a while.

Chris

We have all looked at it: oddly at least some of us do not see what you see

But it is an interesting use of the words "in depth" nonetheless

 

[BobTheDonkey]

You would think, with all this contamination all over the lab, every single item ever tested there would pop positive for every single person that's ever visited the lab, along with all the suspects.


Not just 1 or 2 suspects or the victim on a few key/pertinent items like we see here...

 

[quadraginta]

You would think, with all this contamination all over the lab, every single item ever tested there would pop positive for every single person that's ever visited the lab, along with all the suspects.


Not just 1 or 2 suspects or the victim on a few key/pertinent items like we see here...

It seems that in FOAWorld random, widespread contamination is very selective. As is general incompetence.

 

[Fiona]

It seems that in FOAWorld random, widespread contamination is very selective. As is general incompetence.

Don't forget malice.

Malice is important!!

 

[tsig]

We have all looked at it: oddly at least some of us do not see what you see

But it is an interesting use of the words "in depth" nonetheless

Maybe he realizes he is in a hole?

 

[quadraginta]

Don't forget malice.

Malice is important!!

Yes, of course. Not to be left out.

Apparently not quite as selective though. Stand too close to a promiscuous American trollop and your wealthy Italian son can get tarred with the same national prejudice brush.


That'll teach 'im to diss good Italian girls.

 

[quadraginta]

Maybe he realizes he is in a hole?

Nah. If he did he'd quit reaching for more shovels.

He needs all those shovels for other ... stuff.

 

[tsig]

Don't forget malice.

Malice is important!!

It seems everybody's lying but Amanda. The DNA is contaminated, the defense team is incompetent and the entire Italian justice system is nothing but a giant railroad.

I predict that Amanda et al will spend a lot of time in jail. Randi can email me when my check is ready.

 

[Fiona]

It seems everybody's lying but Amanda. The DNA is contaminated, the defense team is incompetent and the entire Italian justice system is nothing but a giant railroad.

I predict that Amanda et al will spend a lot of time in jail. Randi can email me when my check is ready.

Nonsense: nobody is lying at all. They all just have "false memory". Do keep up

 

[Chris_Halkides]

electropherogram figure

We have all looked at it: oddly at least some of us do not see what you see

But it is an interesting use of the words "in depth" nonetheless

What do you see, exactly?

 

[Fiona]

I see a good match

 

[Dan O.]

Fiona, you are loosing focus. The accreditation and independent testing which is required of all DNA labs in the rest of the civilized world would give us an independent and unbiased judgement as to the conditions at the lab in Italy and whether they can in fact perform LCN DNA testing and return reliable results. Where is this documentation?