Are dice rolls and card falls random or divinely controlled

[Ladewig]

At this site you will find an article that dismisses most of the sillier claims against D&D. It does, however, contain this paragraph:

First, like most games--all those which use dice or cards--Dungeons & Dragons(tm) assumes that dice and cards fall in a random pattern along statistically predictable probabilities. It is extremely difficult for us to deal with this assumption. The question of whether dice and cards fall at random or are divinely controlled is far beyond the scope of this article, but the answer goes directly to the nature of the sovereignty of God. Christians who play such games should grapple with the issue and form an opinion about it. Note that it is possible to avoid all such games by only playing those games which pit skill against skill--athletic competition, chess, checkers, reversi, competitive puzzles such as tic-tac-toe and dots--but these are the games most susceptible to the problems of the competitive spirit, the idea that one wins and therefore all others lose. That may be a far more dangerous challenge to the principles of the gospel than the more intellectual question of whether the assumption of statistical randomness is an affront to the sovereignty of God.

Has anyone else ever encountered the claim that "statistical randomness [might be] an affront to the sovereignty of God."


. . . . . . .
A tip of the hat to http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/ for linking to the article.

 

[Gate2501]

I used to argue with my D&D buddies that die rolls only appear random to us because we lack the ability to calculate all of the variables included. It is not truly random, just unpredictable.

It always ended up with us all in a 3 hour argument about the definition of random!

I find the logic behind that link in your OP to be hilarious! Do they not understand that millions of pseudo-random acts affect their day to day lives over the years? Die rolls are just one of the more obvious ones.

 

[Nonpareil]

A little part of the determinist in me just died. It knifed the gamer part as it went down.

 

[Earthborn]

If God controls dice rolls, and assuming He does not like role-playing board games, can't He just make the dice come up everytime in such a way that it causes the players to think "This game sucks! I'm going to church..." ?

I used to argue with my D&D buddies that die rolls only appear random to us because we lack the ability to calculate all of the variables included. It is not truly random, just unpredictable.

Actually "lacking the ability to calculate all the variables involved" pretty much defines what is sometimes called "True Randomness", which is opposed to "Pseudo-Randomness" where you can (in theory or practice) calculate all the variables involved.

 

[JihadJane]

Are dice rolls and card falls random or divinely controlled

What's the difference?

 

[Gate2501]

Actually "lacking the ability to calculate all the variables involved" pretty much defines what is sometimes called "True Randomness", which is opposed to "Pseudo-Randomness" where you can (in theory or practice) calculate all the variables involved.

Well, I am saying that the variables which determine the outcome of a die roll are calculable(in theory). We certainly don't have the technology to do this in the span of time between the dice leaving your hand and landing, obviously.

It is random if you take random to mean unpredictable, but it certainly isn't random in the same way that atomic decay is. This is why I said that we ended up arguing over semantics every time. The word "random" can mean a few different things.

 

[drkitten]

Actually "lacking the ability to calculate all the variables involved" pretty much defines what is sometimes called "True Randomness", which is opposed to "Pseudo-Randomness" where you can (in theory or practice) calculate all the variables involved.

Depends. A lot of people use "true random" to mean that you cannot even in principle calculate the variables involved (usually because they involve quantum-scale events).

There are actually three separate categories. Pseudo-random is where we can do the math but the distribution works out okay. There's another category where we could in theory do the math but in practice can't be bothered; coin flips, dice, and cards usually fall into this category, but a good magician can move them into category 1. Finally, according to our best theories, it's not even in principle possible to predict when an atom will decay or something.....

 

[Towlie]

Once when I was playing blackjack at Binion's Horseshoe Casino, a player next to me won with a sixteen when the dealer busted. When he exclaimed "Thank God", the dealer said "Don't thank him, he never comes in here."

But seriously...

What's the difference?

There is a huge difference between dice rolls and card falls.

If God does control random events, in the case of card falls he would have to control the shuffle of the cards before each round of the game, which means that he would have to know in advance how the cards would be played. That denies the concept of Free Will, which Christians insist we have in order to explain away all the bad things that happen in the world. So in the case of card games, believers are obliged to deny that God controls the outcome unless they want to claim that God miraculously swaps cards in the deck after he sees how they're being played.

The case of dice rolls is different. In that case believers are free to invoke the Principle of Uncertainly in the way that Jeff Goldblum did when he trickled a stream of water down Laura Dern's arm in Jurrasic Park, and they can claim that God can make the dice land in any way he pleases in order to favor one dice player over another.

 

[Ladewig]

Once when I was playing blackjack at Binion's Horseshoe Casino, a player next to me won with a sixteen when the dealer busted. When he exclaimed "Thank God", the dealer said "Don't thank him, he never comes in here."

But seriously...

There is a huge difference between dice rolls and card falls.

If God does control random events, in the case of card falls he would have to control the shuffle of the cards before each round of the game, which means that he would have to know in advance how the cards would be played. That denies the concept of Free Will, which Christians insist we have in order to explain away all the bad things that happen in the world. So in the case of card games, believers are obliged to deny that God controls the outcome unless they want to claim that God miraculously swaps cards in the deck after he sees how they're being played.

The case of dice rolls is different. In that case believers are free to invoke the Principle of Uncertainly in the way that Jeff Goldblum did when he trickled a stream of water down Laura Dern's arm in Jurrasic Park, and they can claim that God can make the dice land in any way he pleases in order to favor one dice player over another.

An interesting distinction. I can find no fault in your reasoning.

 

[Dunstan]

I think we all know that the roll of a d20 is determined by whether you got all of the bad rolls out of its system before the gaming session.

 

[Earthborn]

(snip) he would have to know in advance how the cards would be played. That denies the concept of Free Will, which Christians insist we have (snip)

Of course those same Christians will insist that the fact that God knows in advance what anyone is going to chose does not contradict "Free Will".

 

[Towlie]

Of course those same Christians will insist that the fact that God knows in advance what anyone is going to cho(o)se does not contradict "Free Will".

I'm skeptical that anyone would actually take that position. I've certainly never heard it before. Rather than knock down a straw man, I think I'll wait for someone to jump in and actually endorse it before I bother disputing it.

 

[JihadJane]

Once when I was playing blackjack at Binion's Horseshoe Casino, a player next to me won with a sixteen when the dealer busted. When he exclaimed "Thank God", the dealer said "Don't thank him, he never comes in here."

But seriously...

There is a huge difference between dice rolls and card falls.

If God does control random events, in the case of card falls he would have to control the shuffle of the cards before each round of the game, which means that he would have to know in advance how the cards would be played. That denies the concept of Free Will, which Christians insist we have in order to explain away all the bad things that happen in the world. So in the case of card games, believers are obliged to deny that God controls the outcome unless they want to claim that God miraculously swaps cards in the deck after he sees how they're being played.

The case of dice rolls is different. In that case believers are free to invoke the Principle of Uncertainly in the way that Jeff Goldblum did when he trickled a stream of water down Laura Dern's arm in Jurrasic Park, and they can claim that God can make the dice land in any way he pleases in order to favor one dice player over another.

I meant what's the difference between random and divinely controlled.

I wasn't equating the adverb "divinely" with the noun "God".

I don't believe in "Free Will".

What have Christians got to do with it?

 

[Towlie]

I don't believe in "Free Will".

Then I guess that means if I argue with you, I'm arguing directly with God.

 

[not daSkeptic]

The way I see it, apparently random processes such a dice-rolls and card-falls may or may not be influenced by some supernatural deity. The real question is whether or not there is any significant reason to think the former.

 

[shadron]

Such an assumption would make a hash of huge parts of engineering and applied science. Stochastic processes and the assumptions about the randomness that are at its base would screw up a lot of electrical engineering, materials science, meteorology, climate, fluid- and thermo-dynamics, space exploration, astrophysics and cosmology, metrology, and so on and so on. However, I don't notice that materials are failing non-randomly, or climate acting with purpose (one big reason that I do not like denial "science"), or measurement tools and computers failing, geo-location placing my home in Montana, my lawn sprinkler only watering half my lawn, all the air molecules suddenly deciding to occupy on corner of a room, and so on. Science has placed a huge assumption upon randomness, and has placed an extremely sensitive instrument (essentially, the whole of our technological society) upon that assumnption.

Random processes are the hidden sine-qua-non that have never failed to act differently than what we expect. To even consider that they may not is to abandon not only science, but any control over any aspect of the universe.

There have been many science fiction (and especially fantasy) stories about just that happening; David Brin's The Practice Effect is one.

 

[Pup]

I thought everybody knows, Gott würfelt nicht.

 

[Towlie]

Stephen Hawking says he does.

 

[The Norseman]

If God controls dice rolls, and assuming He does not like role-playing board games, can't He just make the dice come up everytime in such a way that it causes the players to think "This game sucks! I'm going to church..." ?

*snip*

Hahaha!

I did one better. I played RPG's while in church.

 

[JihadJane]

Then I guess that means if I argue with you, I'm arguing directly with God.

Do you believe in Free Will?

The way I see it, apparently random processes such a dice-rolls and card-falls may or may not be influenced by some supernatural deity. The real question is whether or not there is any significant reason to think the former.

What if divinity is natural?