8 out of 8 at Citgo station

[Reheat]

I'm not about to waste any more time on the majority of your unmitigated puking drivel. Other than this jewel.

Pilotsfor911truth have provided the math for the NOC average of paths that were actually witnessed. They have proven, even at the official speed that it was hypothetically possible.

No, they haven't. They merely deceptively devised a path that by cheating on parameters is possible. Hell, a path along the Canadian border is also possible and is North of the Citgo. Both DO NOT adhere to an aggregate path described by all witnesses. Give it up.....you lose.

 

[DGM]

Mudlark:
I don't think you addressed this;

A very appropriate question to ask yourself. Just like Ranquist, you just don't get the fact that if Middleton were even remotely correct then both Paik and Morin were totally wrong with their descriptions. It's not even close.

 

[carlitos]

No, you didn't understand.

10% of witnesses?
Make that 100% who have been confirmed within the North of Citgo area.
Not one has been found that contradict them in any way.
Not one SOC witness has been put forward.
Of all the witness links posted here nobody contradicts the NOC witnesses. Many actually reinforce it.

No no no no no no no. You misunderstood the question.

I asked what WEIGHT you give to the various forms of evidence. You will see my % figures add up to 100%. I only weight my evaluation of the evidence 10% based on witnesses. That's because the forensic, documentary and physical evidence are so overwhelming as to make witness accounts meaningless.

Example -

• carlito is shot through the head with a crossbow
• There he is, lying on the ground with an arrow through his head.
• Coroner says cause of death = arrow.
• Video shows Fred with crossbow entering the room just before the murder.
• Fred has a freshly-fired crossbow in hand when arrested.
• Fred's fingerprint is found on the arrow.
• 10 people in the room all swear that Fred shot carlito with a pistol.

In the example above, the witnesses are wrong. It wasn't a pistol. I don't care what they say. Get it?

And for your CIT nonsense to be true, it wouldn't even be all 10 witnesses, it would be only 3 from one side of the room, and even those 3 would agree that the dude with the crossbow shot the guy! AND, the angle of the shot would have to be physically impossible. AND, you waited 5 years to interview them, and they changed their story.

Brainless. Complete rubbish.

So, when I ask - are you ignoring all of the other evidence, because of these few witnesses, your answer is:

yes

no

?

 

[DGM]

No no no no no no no. You misunderstood the question.

By far the largest understatement of the year.

 

[Meed]

mudlark,

No response to my post regarding the impact witnesses? It took me awhile to write and I tried to give careful consideration to all of your points (expect in the cases where I didn't know what point you were trying to make).

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Post a direct link to this specific argument and I will post it on to Balsamo.
He told me that the links that you DID post were calculations which ignored topography and obstacles.

Of course he does. He can't identify any specific topography or obstacle that would present a problem for my calculations, but not having a leg to stand on isn't going to slow you guys.

Pilots have plotted a hypothetical flightpath based on the sum of all the NOC witnesses. They have also done their best in trying to include all possible parameters. You want an EXACT path based on witness testimony?

An approximate but specific path would be enough. Estimated error bounds would be even better.

Your math and physics are based on government supplied data.
Witness testimony is the only impartial way to sort this argument out.

No witnesses report a flyover.

Many witnesses report a low-flying aircraft. Some saw it strike light poles or slam into the Pentagon. Many witnesses saw the resultant damage to light poles and Pentagon.

Those witnesses are supported by competent analysis of data supplied by the government and other sources.

Your fantasy requires much more than wholesale deception by the government. It also requires wholesale misrepresentation and cherry-picking of eyewitness accounts. Even then, you can't find anything in the witnesses' testimony that supports an alternative to impact with the Pentagon.

 

[beachnut]

I´d be interested in seeing the math to counter this paper.
I will pass it on to Pilotsfor911truth and post the reply if mods allow me to.



´All of them´? Names? Quotes/links? Ya know, the usual when making a statement on a debate forum.



RADAR data that is totally contradictory to witnesses? Including the C130 RADES placement which even the PILOT contradicts?

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=116

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=325

RADAR data is real and all the witness statement do not refute the RADAR data. RADAR data is real, CIT delusions are made up junk only those who lack knowledge on many subjects fall for.

You can't understand real evidence and prefer idiotic delusions from CIT. Sad you can't get anyone to listen to your failed ideas on this issue; What did the FBI say? Have you told your parents of your delusions? What did they say? Are you getting a kickback from DVD sales from CIT and p4t fraud factory? p4t offer no theory so they have no viable flight path or scenario past apologizing for murderers, apologizing for terrorists.

Boger, a CIT witness, watched 77 enter the Pentagon. Good job.

 

[triforcharity]

There is no official documentation of chain of custody of this ´passenger DNA´ as with Flight 77´s plane parts.

maybe it's available, and you just haven't asked for it.

Having been on the business end of arson investigations many times, I can assure you that every piece of evidence that we collect are labeled, and there is a chain of custody sticker on it. Even if I hand it off to another firefighter, their name goes on that sticker.

I know that DNA is even more regulated, as it is considered a HazMat.

 

[beachnut]

...
There is no official documentation of chain of custody of this ´passenger DNA´ as with Flight 77´s plane parts.
...

BIG LIE!!!! Navy personnel died in the Pentagon. There was a very stringent chain of custody that you have no clue on. So who are you calling a liar now!? All the USN? The entire chain of DoD? I was on active duty on 911 and you have to call me a liar and in on it too.

You spew lies and false information. ... you post in the USA where you can post what you want, even your lies.

Where do you find these big lies; are you on the payroll of p4t and CIT? There are only a few fringe people who share your failed opinions based on delusions. How disrespectful can you be as you spit on all the 911 victim graves spewing lies like this based on your own ignorance.

All you posts are very disrespectful to those who died on 911; what do your parents say?


If you are US citizen you are disrespectful and anti-patriotic on this willful repetition of a delusional lie. If you are kid, you are just immature and lacking knowledge and experience. You are not very skeptical of the liars in 911 truth.
I am not saying to blindly follow the government or your leaders, you have to use your mind and think for yourself; I don't think you are thinking for yourself, you are repeating failed ideas. I never trusted other people or groups, they have to earn trust. 911 truth is pure junk, and you are repeating the lies without thinking about it, without verifying them.

cheers

 

[Reheat]

maybe it's available, and you just haven't asked for it.

There is indeed a chain of custody for the DNA. It's been posted in the past. Does not deserve the time or effort to search for it as it will immediately be ignored.

 

[A W Smith]

There is indeed a chain of custody for the DNA. It's been posted in the past. Does not deserve the time or effort to search for it as it will immediately be ignored.

http://www.cstl.nist.gov/div831/strbase/pub_pres/Edson2004.pdf

ABSTRACT: The Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL) is one of the leading laboratories in the
world for the processing of degraded skeletal remains. Extended efforts have been made to develop protocols and
standards that will hold up to the intense scrutiny of both the scientific world and the U.S. legal system. Presented
in this paper are the specifics of the in-house systems and procedures that have allowed AFDIL to streamline the
processing of degraded skeletal remains and family references for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis. These
include the development of our in-house bioinformatics systems by which every package and sample that passes
through the laboratory is tracked; protocols designed specifically for both questioned and reference samples; and
the difficulties inherent in this type of organization. Two case studies presented involve one of ancient remains and
one on the recent event of September 11, 2001. Finally, future directions available to both AFDIL and the DNA
analysis community as a whole are discussed.

http://911review.org/Wget/www.armymedicine.army.mil/news/releases/afip.htm

Experts ID 184 Pentagon Fatalities

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-2] News & Media - News Releases[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]by Christopher C. Kelly
Public Affairs, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology played a major role in Operation Nobel Eagle investigations, officials said. AFIP is an executive agency of the Army surgeon general.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Many of the Pentagon casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital; the rest were killed on site. For some victims, only pieces of tissue could be found.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators and support personnel worked for more than two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Md., to identify victims of the attack.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Our staff represented every branch of service," said Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner, AFIP director. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]AFIP used a well-designed and tested system for identifying the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at Dover Air Force Base, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Forensic dentistry experts then performed dental charting and comparison with existing dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in identification, followed by autopsy inspection. At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause of death, and a forensic anthropologist determined race, sex and stature of victims when necessary.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]An epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers documented injuries and personal effects. Finally, mortuary specialists embalmed, dressed and casketed remains.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the identification system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]From DNA samples sent to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory, scientists there generated DNA profiles of the victims. Their work also included the victims of United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Somerset County, Pa.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The DNA lab's entire staff of 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, and logistics and administrative personnel worked 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to complete the work.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]DNA identifications for Flight 93 victims were sent to the Somerset County Coroner's Office for release. The Department of Defense released identification of Pentagon victims. All but four who worked in the Pentagon were identified. AFIP identified all but one of the passengers of Flight 77.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]From the January 2002 Mercury, an Army Medical Department publication.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]For immediate release, Jan. 11, 2002.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030209223904/http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/news/releases/afip.htm[/SIZE][/FONT]

Of course our resident account sharing sock will hand wave this all away in less than an hour.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Thanks Smith, it proves without reasonable doubt that the remains of the people killed in the Pentagon and of those who boarded Flight 77 arrived at Dover Air Force Base.

RIP.

 

[Mangoose]

Do you accept that it proves where the remains arrived from?

 

[Meed]

Thanks Smith, it proves without reasonable doubt that the remains of the people killed in the Pentagon and of those who boarded Flight 77 arrived at Dover Air Force Base.

RIP.

Are you saying the remains of the Flight 77 passengers may have been taken there from somewhere else?

I have a few questions for you, BTW.

1. You said earlier in the thread "These more than hundred witnesses are still a myth. If you are able to name at least one of them that stands a few seconds of factchecking, i'm all ears. In the other thread."

I don't know which other thread you were talking about so maybe you can point me to it.

But I provided a bunch of witness examples in this post. Mudlark responded with a critique, which I responded to here.

Are you still all ears?

2. What I think is most surprising is that you put so much stock in the testimony of a few witnesses regarding flight path specifics of the plane, recounted years after the event. You take this as hard evidence that the plane took a specific flight path. You do realize that the fallibility of human memory for such details, especially 2 years after the fact, is enormous?

3. What do you think the motivation would be for pretending to fly a plane into the pentagon, then hitting it with a missile, then flying it somewhere else (and counting on no one seeing it fly over the pentagon or firing a missile) and then killing all the passengers? Do you think the pilot may have been in on it and is still alive somewhere with a changed identity? If planes were flown into other buildings why it be a problem for government (if you believe in an inside job) to do it a third time?

4.What do you think the odds are of the plane flying over the pentagon and no one witnessing it? And also no one witnessing the plane firing a missile?

If you like then just answer the first question.

You may be a German male truther, but I like you for some reason. So don't take this as an antagonistic post, just an appeal to what I would call reasonable assessment of the evidence.

 

[BCR]

Please ... someone pass the duct tape. I think my head is about to explode.

 

[CompusMentus]

3. What do you think the motivation would be for pretending to fly a plane into the pentagon, then hitting it with a missile, then flying it somewhere else (and counting on no one seeing it fly over the pentagon or firing a missile) and then killing all the passengers?

Not only that but then rendering the corpses of these passengers so that the remains were indistinguishable from people that had died in high velocity impact trauma's and/or burned beyond normal recognition.

Of course we all know what the "truth"er answer to this macabre almost impossible scenario will be..................


Compus

 

[GlennB]

Thanks Smith, it proves without reasonable doubt that the remains of the people killed in the Pentagon and of those who boarded Flight 77 arrived at Dover Air Force Base.

RIP.

Do you accept that AA77 crashed into The Pentagon with the original passengers on board, and that Pentagon staff were also killed as a result of the crash?

Mysterious and ambiguous posts such as yours - quoted above - really don't illuminate anything. We're left not even knowing what you believe.

 

[jaydeehess]

Here are most important NoC quotes from Middleton's 2001 interview:

...................

.............
What don't you get here?

Well I have asked you at least twice how Middleton's description and drawing could allow Morin, and several other witnesses, to even be able to see the aircraft at all and yet you cannot seem to get around to explaining that.

If Morin saw the a/c then it was not north of the Navy Annex. If Paik saw the a/c then its behind his shop, not in front of it.

that means Middleton is wrong, or Morin and Paik are utterly confused as to even thir own whereabouts on 911(or perhaps lieing gov't shills), Given that its more likely that Middleton is incorrect in his placement of the a/c all we can say for sure is that the a/c was along a path where Middleton could see it. As explained above, geometry illustrates how witnesses can get such distances wrong.

Why don't you and three friends try a test. Go out to a local airfeild and locate a spot under the final landing approach. For instance a recognizable building. You synch a couple of watches and a buddy goes out to that spot and notes the exact time at which landing aircraft pass over him. The rest of you, at different locations also do the same except you are noting the exact time that you believe that the a/c is directly over that building. Note a/c type as much as possible as well. (to distinquish between smaller craft such as DASH-8 from 737 and from large a/c such as 747.)

Approach speeds are generally not that fast and you already know the path the a/c will be taking. If you cannot get the time right to within 1 second you are off by 300 feet or so. If the a/c were travelling at 400 mph you'd be in error by 600 feet. If you did not already know in advance the path the a/c was going to take and that it would definately pass over the building, you would be even more off the mark.

Now try this a little differently.

Position voluteers who have never been in the area before to one side of the approach and have them try to determine a building that the plane passes. Then plot how accurate their descriptions are.


Not that I expect you or the CIT to actually do such research or to do it properly even if they did.

So when you are ready to admit that Middleton's description simply cannot be taken as a literally true representation of where the a/c was let me know.

 

[jaydeehess]

By far the largest understatement of the year.

nitpick: carlitos could have ended the sentence at the word 'misunderstood"

 

[Gaspode]

Some posts moved to AAH.

Keep it civil from now on please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode