POTUS Obama Reneges On Promise To Allow C-SPAN Access To Congress HC Negotiations?

[Beeyon]

While his use of wikianswers is pretty shameful, Cicero is right. It'd probably be better to use the term leader though. Whenever a party has the presidency, it is led by the president. Whenever a party doesn't have the presidency, its chairman tries to lead it.

If you think it's rediculous, ask yourself whether you heard more news about Time Kaine during Obama's presidency or Howard Dean during Bush's terms. Dean was a figurehead because there was no other figurehead. The fire to pass this health care bill came from the White House, not the DNC chair.

 

[headscratcher4]

However, whilst Obama is "party leader" and for Cicero that means what the leader says goes (thus, Obama making a "promise" that everyone understands he couldn't possibly or keep or legally impose is some sort of failure -- unlike, for example Bush who seemed to have the GOP pretty much in lockstep), one should be reminded of the great Will Rogers who said:"Democrats never agree on anything, that's why they're Democrats. If they agreed with each other, they would be Republicans."

 

[Cicero]

A two word uncited anonymous response on a web page that you could have just as easily put there yourself? Well, I'm convinced!

What duties does the President perform in his office as head of the political party? Does he run budget meetings? Does he stay up late drafting policy statements for the Democratic Party? How, exactly, do you conclude that the President is the head of his political party?

And while you are busy not backing up that claim, what new and unimaginitive way will you continue to avoid backing up your OP claim?

You always insist on a wiki source before you consider any JREF post credible. All of a sudden you figured out the fallibility of wiki where anyone can post info?

You never noticed that media have traditionally referred to the POTUS as the leader of their political party?


" Obama has been ramping up his role as the Democratic Party's leader in recent days after largely shunning campaigning and fund-raising over the past two months as he focused on a country embroiled in recession and two wars." Associated Press And Globe Staff

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/03/26/obama_hits_trail_for_his_party/

"The Democrats' new leader popped out of the wings Wednesday night after a rousing speech by his vice presidential candidate, Joe Biden"

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Conventions/story?id=5668306&page=1

But no less than POTUS Obama's own press secretary said:

"The president is the leader of the Democratic Party and, as that, would support the Democratic nominee." Robert Gibbs October 9, 2009

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2009/10/obama-spokesman-the-president.html

Let's see. Obama believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party. His press secretary believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party. The AP, The Boston Globe and ABC News believe he is the leader of the Democratic Party. It would appear that you, JoeTheJuggler, and ANTPogo are sporting an omelet on your collective visages.

 

[Upchurch]

You always insist on a wiki source before you consider any JREF post credible. All of a sudden you figured out the fallibility of wiki where anyone can post info?

Okay, first, Wikipedia and WikiAnswers are two different sites.

Second, Wikipedia is sourced. You can look up where the information came from to see if it is accurate. The WikiAnswers page you cited is not sourced. There is no indication where that information came from.

Three, I only cite Wikipedia because it is a convenient short hand for all those other sources.

Let's see. Obama believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party.

I missed that citation.

His press secretary believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party. The AP, The Boston Globe and ABC News believe he is the leader of the Democratic Party. It would appear that you, JoeTheJuggler, and ANTPogo are sporting an omelet on your collective visages.

NPR considers Tony Blankly a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. Tony Blankly considers himself a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. His other co-hosts considers Tony Blankly a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. The audience of Left, Right, and Center considers Tony Blankly a co-host of the show.

Do you still insist that he is not and that there is no shows on NPR hosted by a conservative?
[/Cicero-style-tu-quoque]

Seriously though, Obama has no actual leadership responsibilities to the Democratic Party. They may look to him for direction, but they don't have to follow his lead and often don't. Any claims of leadership are more honorary than actual.

 

[Cicero]

In short, complaining that Obama "renigged" on something he as president would never have any control over -- other by the moral power of saying government and congressional functions should be more transparent -- is really silly. If you want to compalin about lack of transparance, point to Pelosi and Reid...oh, and than go back and look at how the GOP managed conference committee meetings back when they controlled Congress...often not telling Democrat members of those committees where they were meeting. Again, not defending obvious hypocracy...but hypocracy is well distributed among all the parties to American politics -- in fact, they're addicted to it.

"It was pointed out to Pelosi by reporters today that President Obama, on the campaign trail, promised the health reform process would happen in front of TV cameras."

"There are a number of things that he swore on the campaign trail," Pelosi said jokingly.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9484736

What other promises does "Botox" Nance think candidate Obama will not be able to keep?

 

[Cicero]

Okay, first, Wikipedia and WikiAnswers are two different sites.

Second, Wikipedia is sourced. You can look up where the information came from to see if it is accurate. The WikiAnswers page you cited is not sourced. There is no indication where that information came from.

Three, I only cite Wikipedia because it is a convenient short hand for all those other sources.

There is an abundance of info on Wikipedia that, even though says "citation needed," is still posted on Wikipedia. Your short hand needs work. How is your dictation?

I missed that citation.

Did POTUS Obama instruct Gibbs to go back out to the WHPC and retract that statement?

NPR considers Tony Blankly a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. Tony Blankly considers himself a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. His other co-hosts considers Tony Blankly a co-host on Left, Right, and Center. The audience of Left, Right, and Center considers Tony Blankly a co-host of the show.

Do you still insist that he is not and that there is no shows on NPR hosted by a conservative?
[/Cicero-style-tu-quoque]

You mean co-hosted, right? The moderator is the host. For the record, you are stipulating that the official representative of POTUS Obama, Robert Gibbs, lied about his boss being the head of the Democratic Party?

Seriously though, Obama has no actual leadership responsibilities to the Democratic Party. They may look to him for direction, but they don't have to follow his lead and often don't. Any claims of leadership are more honorary than actual.

Is this supposed to be your version of an admission that you were wrong? Who said they have to follow his lead? If we are to believe his campaign promises, he asked Congress to allow C-SPAN for the entire process of the health care legislation. Pelosi just gave the leader of her party the finger (see above)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You really are clueless that the POTUS is head of their political party (not the chairman) as well as being the chief executive and commander-in-chief? You can't say you haven't learned something in this thread.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_head_of_a_political_party

You're wrong. And I'll put the link I gave you (the Democratic Party's webpage entitled "our leaders") against your silly Wiki answer where some anonymous user typed in the words "The president!"

By that logic, the Republican Party currently lacks a party head since there is not a POTUS who is a Republican.

Absurd and silly.

Obama is head of the Executive Branch of the federal government and member of the Democratic Party. There are checks and balances between the 3 branches of government, and on this matter the president is not "the decider".

And besides, as soon as they come up with a merged bill, you can bet there will be plenty more hours of televised debate in both chambers of Congress.

And as I mentioned we already had lots and lots of it.

The idea that there is some secret process going on is a gross mischaracterization of the process. If anything, this is one of the most transparent processes we've ever seen for a large piece of legislation. It has been certainly no less transparent than the processes that led to the Medicare Reform bill of 2003 and the Energy Bill of 2005.

 

[Upchurch]

There is an abundance of info on Wikipedia that, even though says "citation needed," is still posted on Wikipedia. Your short hand needs work. How is your dictation?

I challenge you to find where I cited a section of a Wikipedia article that was not sourced.

Did POTUS Obama instruct Gibbs to go back out to the WHPC and retract that statement?

Did Obama instruct Gibbs to make that statement in the first place?

You mean co-hosted, right? The moderator is the host.

Actually, all four are listed simply as hosts. The moderator is given no special hosting designation and is simply another host.

For the record, you are stipulating that the official representative of POTUS Obama, Robert Gibbs, lied about his boss being the head of the Democratic Party?

I said no such thing. Can you support your claim Obama believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party?

Is this supposed to be your version of an admission that you were wrong? Who said they have to follow his lead? If we are to believe his campaign promises, he asked Congress to allow C-SPAN for the entire process of the health care legislation. Pelosi just gave the leader of her party the finger (see above)

Not at all. However, is this quote an admission that you were wrong? Remember this?

Right. The head of the Democratic Party has zero influence with the Democrat majority in the House and Senate, the Democrat Speaker of the House and Democrat Majority leader.

If Obama doesn't have enough influence to control the Democratic Speaker of the House and Democratic Majority Leader, how can Obama be held responsible for them allowing or not allowing cameras in on various aspects of Congress?

 

[Cicero]

You're wrong. And I'll put the link I gave you (the Democratic Party's webpage entitled "our leaders") against your silly Wiki answer were some anonymous user typed in the words "The president!"

By that logic, the Republican Party currently lacks a party head since there is not a POTUS who is a Republican.
Absurd and silly.

How does that stack up against:

"The president is the leader of the Democratic Party and, as that, would support the Democratic nominee." Robert Gibbs October 9, 2009

" Obama has been ramping up his role as the Democratic Party's leader in recent days after largely shunning campaigning and fund-raising over the past two months as he focused on a country embroiled in recession and two wars." Associated Press And Globe Staff

I know. They are just being "abusrd and silly."

The current leader of the GOP is a debatable issue.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2009/03/whos_the_leader_of_the_gop.html

 

[Lurker]

Seriously though, Obama has no actual leadership responsibilities to the Democratic Party. They may look to him for direction, but they don't have to follow his lead and often don't. Any claims of leadership are more honorary than actual.

But as the most powerful figure in the Democratic party he certainly can use that power to influence others. I think there is some confusion here as to the term leader. Neither DNC nor GOP have a leader that can leads the party and dictates direction. But Obama does "sway" the DNC probably more than any other one person at this time. Much like Clinton did 15 years back.

If your criteria for being termed "leader" is that everyone must follow his lead then I would submit that there never has been a leader of either party. Party member policies are swayed by their leaders and sometimes one leader emerges as more powerful than the others. Much like Obama has emerged as more powerful than the Clintons.

Of course, if you are talking about administrative duties like determining how to parcel out DNC money, where the next convention is and things like that then it is the DNC chairman. But I am not sure that is all that important when it comes to policies.

 

[Upchurch]

But as the most powerful figure in the Democratic party he certainly can use that power to influence others. I think there is some confusion here as to the term leader.

I'm sure that's true. However, the contention here is that a Democratic President is responsible for the actions of the Democratic Party members in Congress (namely the allowing or not allowing of C-SPAN cameras).

As far as that goes, Obama isn't in that kind of leadership role.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I challenge you to find where I cited a section of a Wikipedia article that was not sourced.

Funny that Cicero rejects a well sourced Wikipedia article but he accepts a two word, unsubstantiated Wiki Answer.

How does that stack up against:

"The president is the leader of the Democratic Party and, as that, would support the Democratic nominee." Robert Gibbs October 9, 2009

" Obama has been ramping up his role as the Democratic Party's leader in recent days after largely shunning campaigning and fund-raising over the past two months as he focused on a country embroiled in recession and two wars." Associated Press And Globe Staff

It beats it. Mine was a listing of the party leaders on the Democratic Party website, yours is a quote of someone's opinion that may or may not be in the same context as this conversation.

I know. They are just being "abusrd and silly."

Not "they"--you. Your position is simply wrong. Obama can't require Congress to televise whatever it takes to merge the bills. And on top of that, once the bills are merged, the text will be made public (again) and there will be plenty more open debate, and much of that debate will be televised.

So your complaint is groundless.

And I'm not claiming Obama has not reneged on promises. In fact, I've been complaining about his breaking his campaign promises wrt fixing Faith Based Initiatives, ending torture, addressing gay rights ("don't ask, don't tell" in particular), etc.

The current leader of the GOP is a debatable issue.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2009/03/whos_the_leader_of_the_gop.html

A position that is at odds with your Wiki Answers approach--that the leader of the party is, "The president!" It's also at odds with your assertion that Obama is the head of the Democratic Party. (Saying something is "debatable" doesn't mean that your assertion is right. Again, the page I cited from the official DNC website is the best evidence that's been presented here.)

 

[Cicero]

I challenge you to find where I cited a section of a Wikipedia article that was not sourced.

With nearly 20,000 posts, that isn't a challenge, it's a dare.

Did Obama instruct Gibbs to make that statement in the first place?

Is Gibbs a loose cannon? He speaks for the POTUS. If his boss objected to being called the "leader of the Democratic Party," there is no doubt Gibbs would have been dressed down by his boss and sent out to retract the statement.

Actually, all four are listed simply as hosts. The moderator is given no special hosting designation and is simply another host.

From your favorite site:

"Matt Miller is moderator and co-host of the nationally syndicated public radio program Left, Right & Center, representing the center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Miller_(journalist)

We have been over this before. One conservative sharing time with two others on a panel with a moderator ( the guy who decides who speaks, which calls get through, which emails to read, etc), who appears only once a week, is proof that NPR does not provide conservatives an opportunity to host a show in the same way that libs get to host shows on NPR.

I said no such thing. Can you support your claim Obama believes he is the leader of the Democratic Party?

If I show you film of him saying it would that mean that it is true?

Not at all. However, is this quote an admission that you were wrong? Remember this?

If Obama doesn't have enough influence to control the Democratic Speaker of the House and Democratic Majority Leader, how can Obama be held responsible for them allowing or not allowing cameras in on various aspects of Congress?

You are missing the bigger picture. Why did Pelosi defy the POTUS on this campaign promise. What occurred behind these doors that she didn't want Americans to see and hear?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

But as the most powerful figure in the Democratic party he certainly can use that power to influence others. I think there is some confusion here as to the term leader. Neither DNC nor GOP have a leader that can leads the party and dictates direction. But Obama does "sway" the DNC probably more than any other one person at this time. Much like Clinton did 15 years back.

If your criteria for being termed "leader" is that everyone must follow his lead then I would submit that there never has been a leader of either party.

Cicero's position is that even though Obama's power over Congress is limited by the separation of powers, the fact that he is the party leader (which is not factually true) trumps that limitation on his authority. It clearly does not.

And again, it's all moot because debate on the floor of both chambers has been and will continue to be televised. (Ditto a great deal of debate in at least the Senate Finance Committee that I'm aware of.) There simply is not conspiracy of silence going on. This process is at least as transparent as that involved in any large piece of legislation and probably more so.

 

[GreNME]

since when have Republicans given a **** about transparency in government?

Since that Muslim guy from Kenya stole their "white" house.

Pretty much sums up the thread.

Lame, politics subforum. Really lame.

 

[Upchurch]

From your favorite site:

"Matt Miller is moderator and co-host of the nationally syndicated public radio program Left, Right & Center, representing the center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Miller_(journalist)

Apology accepted.

If I show you film of him saying it would that mean that it is true?

If you provide any credible source showing that he said it, it would mean he said it.

You are missing the bigger picture. Why did Pelosi defy the POTUS on this campaign promise.

Because she is not beholden to Obama's campaign promises and probably has her own reasons (and responsibilities) for doing whatever she does.

What occurred behind these doors that she didn't want Americans to see and hear?

...and now we're into CT territory.

 

[GreNME]

What occurred behind these doors that she didn't want Americans to see and hear?

Oh, that's easy: the black Muslim is signing away America's sovereignty to the socialist Islamic communist caliphate of al Qaeda. Or something.

 

[Cicero]

[

Funny that Cicero rejects a well sourced Wikipedia article but he accepts a two word, unsubstantiated Wiki Answer.

What? I am wiki's biggest critic. They post ******** sourced or unsourced. It is not my fault that you have never heard that the POTUS is the leader of his party. Who needs wiki to establish that fact?

It beats it. Mine was a listing of the party leaders on the Democratic Party website, yours is a quote of someone's opinion that may or may not be in the same context as this conversation.

In your mind it beats it. What context? The White House Press Secretary said in no uncertain terms that his boss is the leader of the Democratic Party. Did anyone in the press room challenge Gibbs on this point? Did the DNC challenge him? You seem to be the only one miffed by this.

Not "they"--you. Your position is simply wrong. Obama can't require Congress to televise whatever it takes to merge the bills. And on top of that, once the bills are merged, the text will be made public (again) and there will be plenty more open debate, and much of that debate will be televised.
So your complaint is groundless.

"Require" is your word. There is no Constitutional law that prohibits the POTUS to influence the Congress. POTUS LBJ made a career out of this. My complaint? It seems to be a fairly common complaint. Candidate Obama promised something that the Speaker of The House considers to be ********.

And I'm not claiming Obama has not reneged on promises. In fact, I've been complaining about his breaking his campaign promises wrt fixing Faith Based Initiatives, ending torture, addressing gay rights ("don't ask, don't tell" in particular), etc.

OF all those promises, wouldn't getting Pelosi to allow C-SPAN cameras in on the health care debate from start to finish be the easiest to accomplish?

A position that is at odds with your Wiki Answers approach--that the leader of the party is, "The president!" It's also at odds with your assertion that Obama is the head of the Democratic Party. (Saying something is "debatable" doesn't mean that your assertion is right. Again, the page I cited from the official DNC website is the best evidence that's been presented here.)

I have no wiki approach. If you consider the DNC website to be conclusive evidence that's your problem. Common sense dictates that Gibbs pronouncement and the media's historical reference to the POTUS as the leader of their party trumps your website.

 

[Cicero]

Oh, that's easy: the black Muslim is signing away America's sovereignty to the socialist Islamic communist caliphate of al Qaeda. Or something.

Benighted responses by libs to why Pelosi would stiff arm the POTUS on his campaign promise are expected, but the lack of creativity in these replies is disappointing.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What? I am wiki's biggest critic. They post ******** sourced or unsourced. It is not my fault that you have never heard that the POTUS is the leader of his party. Who needs wiki to establish that fact?

Apparently you do because you cited Wiki Answers to support your assertion that the president is the leader of his party.

So you admit that citation was just a waste of our time?

Again, you've got some opinions that President Obama has taken on the role as leader of his party. At best that's meant figuratively. Obama is not the head of the Democratic Party.

What context? The one where you claim the "fact" that he is the head of the Democratic Party outweighs the checks and balances between the executive and legislative branches of government.

And you continue to ignore the fact that we've already had a great many hours of televised debate on this bill, and once the merged version is introduced, we will almost certainly have a great deal more. You continue to ignore the fact that this has been a process at least as transparent as that which led to any other very large piece of legislation, and probably a lot more so.