Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fiona]

Earlier in this thread it was said that the investigators testified that all correct procedures were followed. In the article by Thompson I cited, he discussed how Houston DNA analysts made a similar claim, even though it was false. Therefore, the testimony of the investigators in this case cannot be taken as an absolute assurance that correct procedures were indeed followed. Readers will find other items in both articles that are directly related to the case, as well being better informed about contamination in general.

Yes: if everybody is telling lies there is no case to answer. And of course everybody could be telling lies, including two independent experts at least one of whom was present for the testing. In fact everybody could be telling lies in every case everywhere: I think we should release all prisoners immediately

 

[stilicho]

Earlier in this thread it was said that the investigators testified that all correct procedures were followed. In the article by Thompson I cited, he discussed how Houston DNA analysts made a similar claim, even though it was false.

This was one of the extraordinary cases that I included in those completely unlike what the defence teams are alleging in the Perugia murder case, halides1. This one specifically involved up to 10,000 cases over 25 years. I believe one or two convictions have already been overturned and there are about 50 more with serious problems. Investigators and auditors reported that the roof was leaking water into the room where the testing was done. The technicians were known to be poorly trained or simply liars.

Where is the remotest similarity with the lab in Italy? Produce that evidence and people will listen to you. Where are the critical news reports? Where are the forensic experts testifying to the lab's shortcomings? How about an audit report? Anything.

You must certainly know, halides1, that there are no similarities whatsoever between the two labs and how they handle evidence or produce test results. The defence teams aren't alleging any such thing. So why are you?

 

[Alt+F4]

I don't understand the "sex game" aspect of the prosecution's case either. I don't think it was labelled as such during the court proceedings. Someone can verify that. If, on the other hand, it's a "power game" then I find it rather easy to believe that someone with normal control issues could become involved in it.

Since they brought the knife from RS's apartment they obviously had some premeditation to do MK harm. And this just happens to be on the exact same night that RG happened to already in in the apartment. Well I guess coincidences happen.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I believe they are used in the interest of justice.

Only for suspects' statements, not witness statements.

 

[Fulcanelli]

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

The case I mentioned, drawings made by the defendant were presented as evidence that he was a murderer. The jury found him guilty based solely on that evidence.

Cartwheels are no more a proof of guilt than drawings.

They were not considered 'evidence', rather as clues. The court's goal is to to find the 'truth'. In order to do that they must consider everything. You seem to object to the idea that the behaviour of the suspects after the murder was considered at all. The behaviour of the accused is considered in nearly every trial everywhere,. For example, how common is the following sort of question on the stand?:

"So on the night in question when you saw the accused, how did they seem to you?"

Or

"In the days following the crime, did you notice anything odd about the defendant?"



In 'this' case, nobody was found guilty on the basis of any drawings they may have made. The behaviour and actions if the accused was taken into account, but the body of the evidence was their lack of alibi and alibi's that didn't match each others, their numerous lies, circumstantial evidence, forensic evidence and witness testimony. So the example you gave is hardly a comparison for this case is it?

 

[Fulcanelli]

The reason why I ask is that it was the prosecution's assertion that a 20 year old woman with no history of violence, mental illness or sexual depravity would participate in the sexual assult and brutal murder of a another woman she did not know well in order to either satisfy her own desire for lesbian rape and violence or to please a boyfriend of two weeks.

Senseless crimes like these, by young girls are not exceptionally uncommon. Here's just a few other examples:


http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/staceys-killer-a-vampire/story-0-1111115397490

http://www.3news.co.nz/Two-girls-fo...campaign=Feed:+co/uJPz+(3News+-+National+News)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1551153/Teenage-girls-jailed-for-sleepover-murder.html

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/22/22907_teenage_faces_of_lilys_killers.html

 

[stilicho]

Since they brought the knife from RS's apartment they obviously had some premeditation to do MK harm. And this just happens to be on the exact same night that RG happened to already in in the apartment. Well I guess coincidences happen.

Why do you suppose that to be the case? What if "they" (and I presume you mean only one or the other) expected Meredith to cave in at the mere sight of the kitchen knife? What if "they" merely intended it as a prop when it was picked up from RS's drawer?

I think you're giving AK and RS far too much credit for forming any plan at all. This pair faked a burglary, then didn't even remove anything from Filomena's room, and they had plenty of time to plan that. AK changed her story something like five times in the first week after Meredith's death. RS, a computer science student, didn't even consider that his computer hardware would disprove his alibi. They may have had some kind of vague idea of the evening's activities but harming Meredith was probably the furthest thing from their minds.

These two couldn't premeditate lunch let alone an attack.

 

[Alt+F4]

Senseless crimes like these, by young girls are not exceptionally uncommon. Here's just a few other examples:


http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/staceys-killer-a-vampire/story-0-1111115397490

http://www.3news.co.nz/Two-girls-fo...campaign=Feed:+co/uJPz+(3News+-+National+News)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1551153/Teenage-girls-jailed-for-sleepover-murder.html

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/22/22907_teenage_faces_of_lilys_killers.html

What I found interesting about these news stories you posted is that all the murders were girls working in pairs and even though some of the articles were vague, it seems like that each pair of girls were more than acquaintances. Also, in none of these cases was the victim sexually assualted.

Am I right in that it was the prosecution's belief that AK and RS just happened to run into RG (who they didn't know, but was friends with the boys downstairs) when they were returning to the cottage with the knife? So they just invite this stranger in to participate in what was going to be at least just a humiliation of MK. Later, as AK is not getting her sexual needs and/or desires met she murders MK.

That is a pretty originial murder plot, I think.

 

[Fiona]

Knox knew Rudy

 

[Fulcanelli]

What I found interesting about these news stories you posted is that all the murders were girls working in pairs and even though some of the articles were vague, it seems like that each pair of girls were more than acquaintances. Also, in none of these cases was the victim sexually assualted.

Am I right in that it was the prosecution's belief that AK and RS just happened to run into RG (who they didn't know, but was friends with the boys downstairs) when they were returning to the cottage with the knife? So they just invite this stranger in to participate in what was going to be at least just a humiliation of MK. Later, as AK is not getting her sexual needs and/or desires met she murders MK.

That is a pretty originial murder plot, I think.

Yes, but while this sort of thing is not exceptionally rare, they are still rare enough that no two cases are going to be identical, each are going to have unique elements. Yes, in each of the linked cases each girl performed their crime in the company of at least one other. Well Knox didn't commit the crime alone either. And it also must be said, it's never been alleged that Amanda Knox herself sexually assaulted Meredith. One of the guys in the group did that and for a guy to sexually assault a victim during an attack is sadly rather common.

I can also provide links to cases where a girl has lured another girl into a situation where she is raped by a man/men and then murdered, even where she's helped hold the girl down while they did it.

And as Fiona has pointed out, Knox and Rudy indeed knew each other. Amanda Knox was the connection between Rudy and Raffaele.

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes, but while this sort of thing is not exceptionally rare, they are still rare enough that no two cases are going to be identical, each are going to have unique elements. Yes, in each of the linked cases each girl performed their crime in the company of at least one other. Well Knox didn't commit the crime alone either. And it also must be said, it's never been alleged that Amanda Knox herself sexually assaulted Meredith.

But Amanda Knox was also convicted of sexual assult so there must have been compelling evidence presented to the jury regarding that. You're right that there have been cases of women luring other women into a situation where they were raped or murdered by men. But I can't recall another case where the woman also participted in the sexual aspect of the attack.

Of course there is a first time for everything, but I still find it odd.

 

[Fulcanelli]

But Amanda Knox was also convicted of sexual assult so there must have been compelling evidence presented to the jury regarding that. You're right that there have been cases of women luring other women into a situation where they were raped or murdered by men. But I can't recall another case where the woman also participted in the sexual aspect of the attack.

Of course there is a first time for everything, but I still find it odd.

Amanda didn't participate in the sexual element of the attack, she simply helped facilitate it. Yes, she was convicted of sexually aggravated murder. But, she would have been convicted of sexually aggravated murder even if it was established in court she never laid a finger on Meredith and simply watched the attack from the doorway or listened from another room. Just because they convicted her of sexually aggravated murder, doesn't mean the court concluded Amanda also sexually assaulted Meredith.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

But Amanda Knox was also convicted of sexual assult so there must have been compelling evidence presented to the jury regarding that. You're right that there have been cases of women luring other women into a situation where they were raped or murdered by men. But I can't recall another case where the woman also participted in the sexual aspect of the attack.

Of course there is a first time for everything, but I still find it odd.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-31150/18-year-old-woman-convicted-rape.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_West

 

[Alt+F4]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-31150/18-year-old-woman-convicted-rape.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_West

I'm not doubting that one woman can sexaully assult another one. In both cases you cite the vicitim lived and therefore was able to tell authorities what happened. It doesn't mention if there was forensic evidence to back up the accusations but there was enough evidence for convictions.

Since in the case in question the victim was dead I'm curious as to what evidence the prosecution had that AK sexually assulted MK. Did they use a lesbian sex version of a rape kit?

 

[Fiona]

They did not have evidence she sexually assaulted the victim, Alt+F4. She was convicted of the murder along with the other two.

 

[Alt+F4]

They did not have evidence she sexually assaulted the victim, Alt+F4. She was convicted of the murder along with the other two.

Perhaps I'm missing something but wasn't she also convicted of sexual assult?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I'm not doubting that one woman can sexaully assult another one. In both cases you cite the vicitim lived and therefore was able to tell authorities what happened. It doesn't mention if there was forensic evidence to back up the accusations but there was enough evidence for convictions.

Since in the case in question the victim was dead I'm curious as to what evidence the prosecution had that AK sexually assulted MK. Did they use a lesbian sex version of a rape kit?

Actually, in the case of Fred and Rosemary West the bodies of numerous girls were uncovered burried beneath their house.

I can also give you other cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors_murders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/18/world/belgian-man-is-convicted-of-raping-and-killing-girls.html


But in any case, the court did not conclude that Amanda herself physically sexually assaulted Meredith, neither was she accused of doing so to begin with. Look, Meredith was killed by one deep stab to the neck and it was the prosecution's contention that it was Amanda Knox that made the stab. Amanda was convicted for murder. However, even though Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito didn't make the fatal stab, they also were convicted of murder, because under Italian law they are considered equally culpable as the one who landed the killer blow. The same principle applies to the sexual aggravation. Even though there was no evidence to suggest Raffaele and Amanda themselves physically sexually assaulted Meredith, under Italian law they are considered equally culpable as they at the least helped facilitate it and made no attempt to prevent it. Hence the conviction of all three for sexually aggravated murder.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Perhaps I'm missing something but wasn't she also convicted of sexual assult?

No, the correct term for what she was convicted of would be 'sexually aggravated murder' or 'murder with sexual violence'. There was no separate charge of sexual assault for either of the three. Here's the charge sheet:

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=1373#p1373

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=5811#p5811

 

[lector]

I think you're giving AK and RS far too much credit for forming any plan at all. This pair faked a burglary, then didn't even remove anything from Filomena's room, and they had plenty of time to plan that. AK changed her story something like five times in the first week after Meredith's death. RS, a computer science student, didn't even consider that his computer hardware would disprove his alibi. They may have had some kind of vague idea of the evening's activities but harming Meredith was probably the furthest thing from their minds.

These two couldn't premeditate lunch let alone an attack.

They also couldn't get rid of Meredith's cell phones, locked AK's lamp on Meredith's room, etc. I've been amazed that they managed to dispose of the second knife & Meredith's keys so effectively. I imagine that the laws of chance indicate that a couple of things would go their way in spite of their general cluelessness.

 

[Alt+F4]

But in any case, the court did not conclude that Amanda herself physically sexually assaulted Meredith, neither was she accused of doing so to begin with. Look, Meredith was killed by one deep stab to the neck and it was the prosecution's contention that it was Amanda Knox that made the stab. Amanda was convicted for murder. However, even though Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito didn't make the fatal stab, they also were convicted of murder, because under Italian law they are considered equally culpable as the one who landed the killer blow. The same principle applies to the sexual aggravation. Even though there was no evidence to suggest Raffaele and Amanda themselves physically sexually assaulted Meredith, under Italian law they are considered equally culpable as they at the least helped facilitate it and made no attempt to prevent it. Hence the conviction of all three for sexually aggravated murder.

Ah, I see. Thank you for that information. Seems to similiar to the concept of felony murder in the U.S. I think my confusion came from reports that she was convicted of murder AND sexual assult rather than a single crime of sexually aggravted murder.