Finally saw Sylvia Browne in person!

[Denver]

...
This show below was deceit too. But I think it was very effective and got media attention outside of it's original airing:

BBC 3 Bullsh!t detectors exposes three mediums

The show made a fake website, a fake story and used fake props. I thought it was brilliant, and needs to be done more

That one is a very good video. But the tactics in that video are quite different. Fake information was created, but it was passively displayed, and it was completely up to the medium as to whether they searched for it and incorporated it into their act. It was a way to track the source of the information presented by the medium. As far as I could tell, the mediums weren't told any outright lies: any false information that the mediums obtained was due to their own attempts at deceit. If the medium had been honest in their contacts of the spirit world, none of that false information would have entered the session at all. The mediums were the ones being deceitful. The moderator just presented them the choice.

In Mark's video, Mark was stating things he knew to be false. And he faked a health problem, in such a dramatic way that the audience and other officials had to come to his aid.

This British video you attached shows how this can be done without all the drama, but with cleverness, and tact, and leaving the choice of deceit up to the medium. This is why it got media attention, and why it was so effective. I don't see Mark's performance being able to make any of those claims.

 

[Calculon]

As far as I could tell, the mediums weren't told any outright lies: any false information that the mediums obtained was due to their own attempts at deceit. If the medium had been honest in their contacts of the spirit world, none of that false information would have entered the session at all. The mediums were the ones being deceitful. The moderator just presented them the choice.

In Mark's video, Mark was stating things he knew to be false. And he faked a health problem, in such a dramatic way that the audience and other officials had to come to his aid.

This British video you attached shows how this can be done without all the drama, but with cleverness, and tact, and leaving the choice of deceit up to the medium. This is why it got media attention, and why it was so effective. I don't see Mark's performance being able to make any of those claims.

Well, the British video got all the attention because it was produced by the BBC as well as it's subject. It was professionally produced and had financing. And they did put up a fake portrait with a fake name.
Yes it was more subtle. This plan would not work for someone like Sylvia. She makes a good living at what she does, and would only attend an event like getting readings at the chocolate factory if a well known media outlet was involved. She wants exposure. I can't supply a TV network, so I do what I can.


And different skeptics have different goals. I would very much like that at every event Sylvia holds, she gets a little paranoid about the questioners. Maybe she will be knocked off her game, or act even ruder to her followers. Her biggest fans will brush it off, but little doubt seeds may be planted.

If you lie to a fraud, and never reveal it, then you are a liar.

If you lie to a fraud and show the world they are a fraud, you do the world a service.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

I don't know if Mark posts here...but he could go further into it. The person who came knew what happened and did not leave angry.

Mark was interviewed by Bryan and Baxter at Warning:Radio tonight. He explained so much of what he was thinking and what happened behind the scenes. You can go to Warning:Radio's site and listen to the archive.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

He could have done the same thing without the play-acting. And by playing his game with Sylvia, he missed a good opportunity to educate the audience. The guy who got booed, in my opinion, was the only real one with the nerve to stand up to her, and cast the light on who SHE is and what SHE can do to deceive people, and not the other way around.

Your right Denver, there are other ways to "punk" monsters like this. I'm sure you will come up with something clever the next time you "do something".

 

[Susan Gerbic]

For those of us inside, we saw this. I don't have it on tape, but more people than numbers called showed up to ask their questions. Montel noticed this and Sylvia said she would "know" if the questioner should not have been in line. (and at this point, us other skeptics assumed Mark was one of those people without a proper ticket) but she answered all people in line and didn't out Mark or one of those cheaters.

Mark did have a proper ticket. But he did get them from the other people that attended. Mark would have gotten in line if his number had not been called. Even with a ticket she should have seen Mark was a fraud also. But she didn't see it coming till it was too late.

 

[Denver]

Well, the British video got all the attention because it was produced by the BBC as well as it's subject. It was professionally produced and had financing. And they did put up a fake portrait with a fake name.
Yes it was more subtle. This plan would not work for someone like Sylvia. She makes a good living at what she does, and would only attend an event like getting readings at the chocolate factory if a well known media outlet was involved. She wants exposure. I can't supply a TV network, so I do what I can...

I enjoy many of the media efforts to expose fraud: we have troubleshooter shows where I live on the radio, tv, and the web. They collect evidence and claims, build a case, and confront the perpetrators. They don't lie in their process, and they get good exposure, because the media likes this kind of thing. Mark has indicated he is sending this to many media outlets. So we'll be able to judge just how effective they think his performance really was. I'm betting he gets little if any exposure from the effort. Not because I don't applaud those who take a stand against charlatans. But because I (and I suspect the media outlets also) do not support his tactics.

If you lie to a fraud, and never reveal it, then you are a liar.

If you lie to a fraud and show the world they are a fraud, you do the world a service.

If you lie to a fraud, you are a liar. The ends does not justify the means. The world needs more critical thinking. Not more lying.

Mark was interviewed by Bryan and Baxter at Warning:Radio tonight. He explained so much of what he was thinking and what happened behind the scenes. You can go to Warning:Radio's site and listen to the archive.

I listened. Mark seems like a good guy. I'm not saying his heart is not in the right place. I am saying this particular video and skeptical strategy is not the high ground, and skeptics can and should do better than trying to combat deceit with more deceit.

Your right Denver, there are other ways to "punk" monsters like this. I'm sure you will come up with something clever the next time you "do something".

I am not sure what my "doing something" has to do with my comments about the video posted. Maybe you could explain that more?

 

[Calculon]

If you lie to a fraud, you are a liar. The ends does not justify the means. The world needs more critical thinking. Not more lying.

The BBC crew made a fake website and backstory...that is lying, just done in a very subtle manner. If you have a fraud in front of you, and you are upfront with them, they will "shut down" and not give you anything of value. If you gain their confidence for just a little bit, they may provide enough rope to hang themselves. Whom do you speak to more freely...someone you trust or someone who you know is out to get you?

That is what I am getting at.

 

[Francine]

NOOB Here

Dear Calculon & Mark,

So good to see you and your spirit guides (Cassandra and Alexis) at the lecture! I have been collaborating with them for so long via party line but it's nice to finally meet them in person. For the record, I'm new to using the computer so I'm trying to understand how to post in this forum. We haven't had many computer labs on The Other Side since Raheim got busted for internet porn and ruined it for the rest of us. Turns out that "getting in touch with your spirit guide" had a whole different meaning for that rascal Raheim.

How much fun did we have when Mark got up to ask his question? We (the guides) couldn't stop laughing at Sylvia's reaction when he started mentioning the names of all the poor souls who have passed over. Cassandra (or Cassie as I have come to know her) blew Sprite out of her nose!! Sylvia had tried contacting me by mental telepathy to get her out of that mess, but I pretended like I didn't hear her. I've gotten good at that. Later when she got mad at me and verbally attacked me, I told her that I went out for popcorn and a smoke. She finally calmed down after I presented her with a doggy bag that I thoughtfully brought back for her. But did I get so much as a thank you? Hell no!

I don't want it to seem like we were laughing about Sylvia desecrating the life and death of those individuals, or victimizing their families. We just couldn't get over how immediately angry she got, and how she continued to be indignant and insist that she was right. I hate it when she does that, and it has gotten worse and worse over the years. To be honest, I've been trying to quit this crummy job for about 70 years but the Big Boss has it out for me. What sort of karmic retribution could I possibly have done to deserve this? I didn't do anything. I swear. <insert angel emoticon here>

Ok, ONE TIME I put a whoopie cushion in his office chair (as comic relief during the Great Depression) and look at the assignment he gave me! It was a simple gag, and the joke turned out to be on me because now I wake up every morning damning my life all to hell. Oh, and I drew a mustache and beard on his face with a Sharpie once when he passed out from drinking one too many White Russians. So sue me! That will teach me to punk the guy upstairs.

Anyway, I was just writing to say hello in case Cassie and Alexis didn't give you my message. I have had about enough of Sylvia speaking for me and I just wanted to join the forum and share the truth about her. She constantly mis-reports everything I say and do so it's time that I have a voice of my own.

Until my next post.

Francine

P.S. Hello to everyone else here too. I think we'll become very good friends.

 

[Ravynn123]

Welcome Francine....

 

[Calculon]

Dear Calculon & Mark,

So good to see you and your spirit guides (Cassandra and Alexis) at the lecture! I have been collaborating with them for so long via party line but it's nice to finally meet them in person.

OMG OMG OMG!
Which one is mine? Cassie?

I didn't have a chance to ask Sylvia myself that night.

Which tequila does my spirit guide prefer? I am off to BevMo in a few minutes.

 

[Francine]

Dear Calculon,

Your guide is Alexis, silly. Funny you should mention tequila because she was knocking back celebratory Patron that night. I didn't want to say anything to put a damper on the evening. She was having a good time, bless her heart, and she wasn't responsible for driving you home.

As a matter of fact, The Other Side isn't much different than Earth. We all enjoy some good spirits from time to time.

How do you think we got our name, "spirit guide"? I personally prefer rum to tequila, but to each his own.

Until my next post.

Francine

 

[Ravynn123]

Dear Calculon,

How do you think we got our name, "spirit guide"? I personally prefer rum to tequila, but to each his own.

Until my next post.

Francine

well that makes perfect sense now that you explain it that way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

My take.. As I watched it, I thought, "Wow, that's great, maybe this will get to her." But her reaction just made me think that she has no conscience, which didn't really surprise me.

After thinking about it, though, I was struck with the idea that someone believing in Sylvia may look into this and while they may find that Sylvia was wrong, they may also find this as validation that there are spirits that were in contact with this poor man which caused him to pass out. They may find Sylvia ... fallible, but it may also reinforce their ideas of a spirit world.

If they buy into the idea that these spirits are angry with Sylvia and working through this man, they are also buying into the idea that there are spirits working through this man.

And, on top of that, Sylvia doesn't even buy into her own nonsense (it seems to me) so it really wouldn't shake her.

 

[Calculon]

My take.. As I watched it, I thought, "Wow, that's great, maybe this will get to her." But her reaction just made me think that she has no conscience, which didn't really surprise me.

After thinking about it, though, I was struck with the idea that someone believing in Sylvia may look into this and while they may find that Sylvia was wrong, they may also find this as validation that there are spirits that were in contact with this poor man which caused him to pass out. They may find Sylvia ... fallible, but it may also reinforce their ideas of a spirit world.

If they buy into the idea that these spirits are angry with Sylvia and working through this man, they are also buying into the idea that there are spirits working through this man.

And, on top of that, Sylvia doesn't even buy into her own nonsense (it seems to me) so it really wouldn't shake her.

Sylvia always has a comeback when she is shown to be way off the mark. We might see it immediately, but her true believers will be able to ignore the contradictions.

But if everytime Sylvia appeared, she was challenged and started to worry when calling on people, that would rattle her a little. Whether it be visible protesters, fliers appearing in the venue, challengers at the microphone, stunts....they can all play a part.

If you can make it to one of her events, please do.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But if everytime Sylvia appeared, she was challenged and started to worry when calling on people, that would rattle her a little.

Well, that's why I can't dismiss the entire situation. I can't really bring myself to say this wasn't without some merit, as Sylvia won't know when there's someone that's going to make her look like a lying, callous, fool. We don't all have long white beards. (Well, some do.. )

But I meant it in reference to the video where Mark mentions hoping she has bad dreams.. (Sorry, if I've misquoted somehow; I watched a couple days ago and only now commented...) I think she sleeps quite well at night.

 

[rjh01]

Someone in JREF is reading these forums. There is now a SWIFT on this subject.
Ref http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/825-sylvia-browne-one-cool-cucumber.html

 

[Lucian]

Wow, welcome Francine! As far as I know, you are the only member posting from the Other Side. I'm impressed.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

About fricking time you started speaking out on your own Francine. Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for that link to the SWIFT blog, very well written.

 

[Questioninggeller]

The really interesting thing is that no one, including Montel Williams or Browne, cared to help a collapsed person.

 

[Minarvia]

I'm glad you're back, Francine. I have 2 questions if you don't mind...

1. You are REALLY stuck with her until she dies? There aren't any exit points for you? Maybe a buddy of yours who owes you a favor? : )

2. What is my spirit guide's name?

Thanks and welcome!