Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[stilicho]

Does anyone know, was Amanda Knox ever given a psychological examination to try to determine her motivatio? Is she mentally ill?

This is something I'd like to know too. I doubt we'll ever be privy to any medical records for either AK or RS but it's something that has occurred to others. I cannot locate the link but it's been reported that RS comes from a family with a history of mental illness.

I've also seen (here on JREF) some fairly disparaging assessments of "court psychology". I am not sure if it's woo or not but perhaps we could lure one of those medical sceptics to take a peek in here and provide an opinion.

 

[stilicho]

Don't you recognize "Hoey"?

Do you mean "hooey"?

I am simply trying to separate genuine objections from fanciful ones. I am not anywhere near an expert at DNA analysis so I depend on qualifiers such as "abundant" or "weak" to help me understand it. And the "independent" analysis of the data seems a little strange. Has any forensics lab ever released all their data for "independent" analysis? How does "independent" analysis vary from what has happened in the Perugia case or others where the defence teams were provided time and evidence to peruse?

@JungleJim: The lack of recordings of the witness and/or suspect statements for either RS or AK (or Mr Lumumba for that matter) is one area where I believe the US system is superior to the one in Italy. Would it have made a difference? In this case it probably wouldn't have since AK was given plenty of opportunity in court to establish her claim of police brutality.

Aren't recordings typically used in the US as sort of a liability contingency for the police rather than to protect any rights of the accused? Maybe a bit of both?

 

[Jungle Jim]

Do you mean "hooey"?


@JungleJim: The lack of recordings of the witness and/or suspect statements for either RS or AK (or Mr Lumumba for that matter) is one area where I believe the US system is superior to the one in Italy. Would it have made a difference? In this case it probably wouldn't have since AK was given plenty of opportunity in court to establish her claim of police brutality. I'm not sure I know what you mean. In her testimony AK repeatedly tells the court that the interrogators screamed at her and cuffed her head. Clearly an audio/visual recording would have established the truth.

Aren't recordings typically used in the US as sort of a liability contingency for the police rather than to protect any rights of the accused? Maybe a bit of both?

I believe they are used in the interest of justice.

 

[Kestrel]

This is something I'd like to know too. I doubt we'll ever be privy to any medical records for either AK or RS but it's something that has occurred to others. I cannot locate the link but it's been reported that RS comes from a family with a history of mental illness.

I've also seen (here on JREF) some fairly disparaging assessments of "court psychology". I am not sure if it's woo or not but perhaps we could lure one of those medical sceptics to take a peek in here and provide an opinion.

A good example of courtroom psychology leading to a wrongful conviction is the Peggy Hettrick murder case^WP.

 

[Alt+F4]

This is something I'd like to know too. I doubt we'll ever be privy to any medical records for either AK or RS but it's something that has occurred to others. I cannot locate the link but it's been reported that RS comes from a family with a history of mental illness.

I've also seen (here on JREF) some fairly disparaging assessments of "court psychology". I am not sure if it's woo or not but perhaps we could lure one of those medical sceptics to take a peek in here and provide an opinion.

The reason why I ask is that it was the prosecution's assertion that a 20 year old woman with no history of violence, mental illness or sexual depravity would participate in the sexual assult and brutal murder of a another woman she did not know well in order to either satisfy her own desire for lesbian rape and violence or to please a boyfriend of two weeks.

 

[Jungle Jim]

The reason why I ask is that it was the prosecution's assertion that a 20 year old woman with no history of violence, mental illness or sexual depravity would participate in the sexual assult and brutal murder of a another woman she did not know well in order to either satisfy her own desire for lesbian rape and violence or to please a boyfriend of two weeks.

One week. She met him October 25.

 

[quadraginta]

A good example of courtroom psychology leading to a wrongful conviction is the Peggy Hettrick murder case^WP.

Cases of wrongful conviction are easy to cite. I deplore the existence of them as much or more than anyone. Why do you think that this case you have cited has any resemblance to the Knox/Sollecito case? There don't seem to be any overt similarities beyond the fact that a woman was killed violently, and the perp wasn't immediately obvious.

You say that this case is a "good example of courtroom psychology". What exactly do you mean by the term "courtroom psychology"? Why is this case a good example? How is it germane to our discussion of the Knox/Sollecito trial?

 

[Kestrel]

Cases of wrongful conviction are easy to cite. I deplore the existence of them as much or more than anyone. Why do you think that this case you have cited has any resemblance to the Knox/Sollecito case? There don't seem to be any overt similarities beyond the fact that a woman was killed violently, and the perp wasn't immediately obvious.

You say that this case is a "good example of courtroom psychology". What exactly do you mean by the term "courtroom psychology"? Why is this case a good example? How is it germane to our discussion of the Knox/Sollecito trial?

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

The case I mentioned, drawings made by the defendant were presented as evidence that he was a murderer. The jury found him guilty based solely on that evidence.

Cartwheels are no more a proof of guilt than drawings.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

The case I mentioned, drawings made by the defendant were presented as evidence that he was a murderer. The jury found him guilty based solely on that evidence.

Cartwheels are no more a proof of guilt than drawings.

And yet, take away all that stuff and you still have an incredibly strong case against Sollecito and Knox...

 

[quadraginta]

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

The case I mentioned, drawings made by the defendant were presented as evidence that he was a murderer. The jury found him guilty based solely on that evidence.

Cartwheels are no more a proof of guilt than drawings.

Was the behavior of Knox and Sollecito at the lingerie store presented to the jury as evidence of their guilt? Were Knox's floor exercises? Master's drawings were.

Did the Sollecito/Knox jury convict solely on the basis of this behavior, as you say that Masters was? Can you provide cites to support that? Can you provide anything to support the claim you appear to be making that they did not consider any other evidence?

Can you even substantiate a claim that the jury considered this behavior as a significant part of their decision? Or at all? From what I have seen of the totality of the evidence reasonable, intelligent people could have arrived at a guilty verdict without any knowledge of this at all.

All I can know for certain is that the police noted such incongruous behavior as part of their investigation. They would have been remiss not to. Even American cops would have been remiss not to. Demeanor may not always be evidence of guilt, but this does not mean that it should always be completely disregarded in the course of an investigation. Is that what you are suggesting is an example of prosecutorial malfeasance?

Are you going to share your definition of "courtroom psychology" with us? You seemed to use it as a pejorative, and insinuated that the Sollecito/Knox trial was guilty of such a transgression., so it must have some particular meaning for you.

 

[stilicho]

The reason why I ask is that it was the prosecution's assertion that a 20 year old woman with no history of violence, mental illness or sexual depravity would participate in the sexual assult and brutal murder of a another woman she did not know well in order to either satisfy her own desire for lesbian rape and violence or to please a boyfriend of two weeks.

I don't understand the "sex game" aspect of the prosecution's case either. I don't think it was labelled as such during the court proceedings. Someone can verify that. If, on the other hand, it's a "power game" then I find it rather easy to believe that someone with normal control issues could become involved in it.

We see this as a brutal murder--after the fact--because of its apparent senselessness. But the fatal blow was not severe enough to cut through the artery that would have led to a quick death. It was not even the first poke at Meredith with a knife during the time leading up to the fatal blow. There are other examples of group bullying (qv Reena Virk et al) where the violence escalated without any premeditation or thought to the consequences.

If you are simply speculating about AK's frame of mind, it's amply revealed in her fiction, her MySpace entries, her confusion about the legitimacy of her own relatives, the Nazi inside "jokes", her casual disregard for others' feelings (qv. Sophie Purton and others of Meredith's friends/the "Rabbit" in the transparent beauty case, etc). This person doesn't appear to be a monster but a typical selfish brat. Maybe a trained psychologist would make more sense of AK than I could but I don't see anything impressive or unusual about her. There was no insanity plea on her behalf.

Just a garden variety manslaughter convict.

 

[stilicho]

I believe they are used in the interest of justice.

Oh come on, Jungle Jim. You aren't that naive, are you? Why do department stores install surveillance cameras? Why do credit card companies record telephone conversations with their collections departments?

Surveillance and monitoring are used to catch crooks and to incriminate people.

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ETA: I just noticed what you wrote within my quote. No problem. AK testified that the blows to her head consisted of two light taps. She demonstrated them on her own head, using her own hand, in court. She continued her testimony rather unbrutalised by the attacks.

 

[stilicho]

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

You're talking about the media interpretations. The evidence that convicted AK and RS was considerably more tangible than that and included a liberal sprinkling of lies and deception intended only to frustrate the police investigation.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Oh come on, Jungle Jim. You aren't that naive, are you? Why do department stores install surveillance cameras? Why do credit card companies record telephone conversations with their collections departments?

Surveillance and monitoring are used to catch crooks and to incriminate people.

----------

ETA: I just noticed what you wrote within my quote. No problem. AK testified that the blows to her head consisted of two light taps. She demonstrated them on her own head, using her own hand, in court. She continued her testimony rather unbrutalised by the attacks.

I think you may have misunderstood my statement. The practice of recording interrogations "serves justice" because it both protects suspects rights and confirms evidence brought by police interrogations. Police, prosecutors, judges and defense counsel all support this measure. Here is a study to that effect: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wro...dremedies/falseconfessions/SullivanReport.pdf

 

[stilicho]

In the Knox/Sollecito case, the defendants hugging was interpreted as evidence that they were guilty of murder. Vampire comic book collections were evidence of guilt. As were cartwheels in the police station.

Here's my summary of this aspect of the case:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5423777&postcount=1231

You might have missed it so it's worthwhile reviewing to observe that those behaviour quirks of AK and RS were mainly brought to you by the media and weren't especially important to the murder case itself.

 

[stilicho]

Police, prosecutors, judges and defense counsel all support this measure.

Just to clarify, I support the measure too, to the point where I explained that it's an advantage the US system has over the Italian system. I had thought you meant it served an ideal rather than very practical considerations that serve the interests of the police and prosecutors.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

strong case?

And yet, take away all that stuff and you still have an incredibly strong case against Sollecito and Knox...

Can you summarize which points you consider especially strong?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

testimony versus reality

Your link does absolutely nothing to support the case you are making: it is, once agan, a general discussion of the precautions to be taken in a lab to deal with possible contamination. Those precautions are taken in Dr Stefanoni's lab:the testing was witnessed by an independent expert acting for the Kerchners and the lab procedures confirmed by a second independent source. Once again all you have is generalities and that is just not adequate in face of what really happened in the specific case. The defence experts have not been able to overturn the evidence: and that is because the "might have beens" cannot be shown to have happened.

Earlier in this thread it was said that the investigators testified that all correct procedures were followed. In the article by Thompson I cited, he discussed how Houston DNA analysts made a similar claim, even though it was false. Therefore, the testimony of the investigators in this case cannot be taken as an absolute assurance that correct procedures were indeed followed. Readers will find other items in both articles that are directly related to the case, as well being better informed about contamination in general.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Can you summarize which points you consider especially strong?

Well, given there's an entire thread here, a number of threads on the PMF site, and a whole court case...I'm going to say: No.

This, actually, will be the last post I am going to make in response to you. You're going to the iggy folder.

 

[truethat]

Can you summarize which points you consider especially strong?

The two points which seem strong to me are the identification by the other guilty party.

The purchasing of bleach and the cleaning of the apartment after coming home and finding blood everywhere and not immediately calling the police.

Probably have some bit of that wrong but that so far.