Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[shuttlt]

You have to have tension on it to cut cloth. So just placing it on the floor woud not work. You could indeed stand on it. But it is not a very natural thing to do IMO (by which I mean that when I tried this that particular approach did not occur to me). What do you think is more likely?

Cutting the clasp off and then leaving it always struck me as an odd thing to do regardless. Perhaps if I had read more I'd understand it. Why cut it off? Cut the strap sure, but I fail to see the purpose of removing the clasp? The thinking is that it was done some while after she was dead, yes?

I take it we are definately talking about the hook and eye contraption at the back rather than the devices to adjust the shoulder straps while it was on?

Perhaps if you placed a very sharp knife under the strap and then rotated it one might be able to do this?

Do we know how much strap was left either side of the clasp?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Then you provided a link to a multiple page document in Italian,

Now you're complaining because I provided you with an original court document, with court stamps, after you've been demanding people provide you with documents? This case is in Italy. What did you imagine, the documents are going to be in English rather then Italian? That's a problem? So, you're not a police expert, not a forensics expert, not a genetics expert, are uneducated as to the actual facts of the case...now we can add that you don't speak Italian to the list. Yet, you are perfectly happy to tell everyone else, including the actual experts that have worked on the case for over two years, that they are all wrong and you are right? You have it all nailed? You didn't even know the bare basics, like the difference in Italian law between 'Witnesses' and 'Suspects' until I told you a couple of hours ago. Yet, you are here to tell us all what's what.

 

[Kestrel]

Shock, horror, they dropped the clasp. That doesn't explain Raffaele's DNA on it.

They dropped it because they weren't gripping it, instead they were trying to handle it as gently and by the edges as much as possible. But really, that's a poor argument to try and say they were incompetent, kind of desperate in fact.

Two technicians handled the clasp with both hands. Including the guy that was holding a flashlight before touching the clasp. A big departure from the recommended method of using disposable tweezers or other known sterile tools to up such evidence.

Use disposable instruments or clean them thoroughly before and after handling each sample.

 

[Kestrel]

Now you're complaining because I provided you with an original court document, with court stamps, after you've been demanding people provide you with documents?

So how about providing the exact quote of that text message?

ETA: It would have taken less time that typing in all those insults.

 

[Fiona]

How about you use google translate?

 

[Fiona]

Cutting the clasp off and then leaving it always struck me as an odd thing to do regardless. Perhaps if I had read more I'd understand it. Why cut it off? Cut the strap sure, but I fail to see the purpose of removing the clasp? The thinking is that it was done some while after she was dead, yes?

I take it we are definately talking about the hook and eye contraption at the back rather than the devices to adjust the shoulder straps while it was on?

Perhaps if you placed a very sharp knife under the strap and then rotated it one might be able to do this?

Do we know how much strap was left either side of the clasp?

All I can say is what I said to kestrel: go and try it.

I have no idea why they did it:that it was removed some time after death is shown by the pattern of blood on her body.

The clasp was removed with about an inch of fabric IIRC

 

[lector]

You didn't even know the bare basics, like the difference in Italian law between 'Witnesses' and 'Suspects' until I told you a couple of hours ago.

Excuse another intrusion, but I think you are referring to your answer to my post. I do, and did, know the difference between Witness & Suspect; that wasn't my point. I think you'd read my post in haste, as I clearly acknowledged that Amanda wasn't an "official suspect" at the point in question.

I was simply responding to part of a post of yours, which also seemed to have been written in haste, & attempting to add a clarification.

Maybe you are letting yourself get too wound up by Kestrel, who doesn't seem to have a clear purpose in pages & pages of questions beyond winding people up; if he does, I missed it.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Two technicians handled the clasp with both hands. Including the guy that was holding a flashlight before touching the clasp. A big departure from the recommended method of using disposable tweezers or other known sterile tools to up such evidence.

They handled their flashlight? No!!! Well, that's clearly the source of Raffaele's DNA, the flashlight!

Come on Kestrel.

The flashlight is not evidence, it didn't come from the cottage but instead is part of their own equipment. the Italians as part of 'their' protocol change gloves in between handling each new piece of actual evidence. What's the difference between a clean pair of gloves and a clean pair of tweezers? You then flash me a PDF dated from whenever, of 'US' recommendations. Recommendations differ from country to country. Is that your argument, Italy isn't run by the US and doesn't do it 'their' way? What makes US protocols superior to Italian protocols?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Excuse another intrusion, but I think you are referring to your answer to my post.

Indeed Lector, you also had questions regarding suspects. But I was actually referring to Kestrel since he asked me why their statements weren't recorded.

 

[Kestrel]

How about you use google translate?

Google translate only works on variations of text.

It doesn't work when the source is a PDF file containing images of the actual document.

 

[Fiona]

That is a shame

I guess you are stuck with going to secondary sources then: there are lots.

 

[shuttlt]

All I can say is what I said to kestrel: go and try it.

I have no idea why they did it:that it was removed some time after death is shown by the pattern of blood on her body.

The clasp was removed with about an inch of fabric IIRC

Thanks Fiona. It's just a damn off pervy thing to do. I can understand cutting the strap, but cutting of the clasp is weird. If I wanted to cut the clasp off I would certainly hold the clasp and cut either side one at a time. I suppose if you pulled hard you could just about get enough slack to cut both sides at the same time.

I agree that other ways of getting it cut are a stretch. In my humble expertise as an appreciator of bras from the outside looking in, I'd have said most bra fabric would be hell to get through without a fair quantity of tension, not impossible, but it would take time and there would probably be evidence that that's what you'd done.

With her lying on the floor, cutting the strap on one side of the clasp, letting the clasp fall to the floor, treading on the clasp and then cutting on the other side is the best I can come up with that doesn't involve holding the clasp.

 

[Fulcanelli]

So how about providing the exact quote of that text message?

ETA: It would have taken less time that typing in all those insults.

How about looking them up for yourself? And what's the point of my providing it for you anyway? The text message is in Italian, you don't speak Italian and the last time I gave you an original transcript in Italian you complained.

 

[Kestrel]

That is a shame

I guess you are stuck with going to secondary sources then: there are lots.

Primary sources in Italian are somewhat readable using Google Translate. But not scanned documents. Trying to search for documents written in other languages is problematic when you are not intimately familiar with the language. Automatic translation of an English search term may end up with the commonly used terms in another language.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Here's your text message Kestrel:

"Ci vediamo più tardi. Buona serata"

 

[scissorhands]

The only reason I can see that anyone would use a knife to remove a bra on an already dead body, would be that they had no experience of removing bras, and they had a knife to hand.
Bra clasps can be tricky, particularly if you are in a hurry.

 

[Kestrel]

Thanks Fiona. It's just a damn off pervy thing to do. I can understand cutting the strap, but cutting of the clasp is weird. If I wanted to cut the clasp off I would certainly hold the clasp and cut either side one at a time. I suppose if you pulled hard you could just about get enough slack to cut both sides at the same time.

Assume the bra is still on the victim, a knife is slipped under the back strap and pulled back. If the knife was in the right spot, wouldn't this end up cutting off the clasp and a small amount of fabric?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Primary sources in Italian are somewhat readable using Google Translate. But not scanned documents

Well done kestrel, you're finally beginning to get it. Understanding this case is 'hard work' and takes a lot of 'time'. It cannot be done via a cursory scan of a couple of pages and a few articles.

 

[Fiona]

Assume the bra is still on the victim, a knife is slipped under the back strap and pulled back. If the knife was in the right spot, wouldn't this end up cutting off the clasp and a small amount of fabric?

No

 

[Fulcanelli]

The only reason I can see that anyone would use a knife to remove a bra on an already dead body, would be that they had no experience of removing bras, and they had a knife to hand.
Bra clasps can be tricky, particularly if you are in a hurry.

And, if you don't want to be physically touching a dead body. It's also handy if you want to emphasise a violent rape...'bra hacked off with knife' does just that.