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My Model of Human Consciousness

Rocketdoger,

Well, other than the fact that I find creating a simulation of a sentient being as unethical, I think you have a series of flaws to your proposal.

I, of course, am reluctant to explain the full details to you because I'm morally opposed to what you're doing, so I don't really feel like giving you pointers.
 
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I'm afraid that's not entirely true. Look up "Inference Engine".

I would say an inference engine could produce results that we interpret as inferences, but its not making any inferences of its own.

10 Print "DNA XYZ was found at the crime scene."
20 Print "Joe's DNA is XYZ."
30 Print "Joe comitted the crime."

A computer displaying that appears to make an inference, but it's not doing anything of the sort. It's just following a program. To make an inference, you have to be aware of certain statements and know whether they're true or false, wouldn't you say?
 
Basics -- Reasoning

A fact is a relationship between 1) percepts or 2) other facts. A knowledge base is the set of facts that an entity knows about the world (hence the name). Facts can either be acquired from perception (atomic, or axiomatic facts) or inferred from existing facts (derived facts). The process of inferring new facts from existing facts is known as reasoning. I believe reasoning is the root of human conscious experience.

There are various ways of implemeting reasoning systems. One method is known as chaining, which can be of the forwards or backwards variety. Both methods are similar in that they can be used to generate new facts from existing facts, and in my opinion both are important.

For instance, we wish to determine if apples and blood are the same color.

Here is an example of forward chaining: suppose our knowledge base is something like {f1=apples are red, f2 = blood is red, f3=red is a color}. Then with f1 and f2 we can infer {f4=apples and blood are red} and then using f3 and f4 we can infer {f5=apples and blood are the same color}.

Here is an example of backward chaining: starting with {f1, f2, f3, f5} above we note that we can possibly generate f4 if f5 and f3 are true. Going with this choice of f4 (as opposed to “apples and blood are green” or any other color) we then see that f4 is indeed true due to either f1 or f2. Note that the algorithm would possibly cycle through other colors and have to back up because f1 and f2 only apply to red, etc.

You may be sorry you invited me here Rocketdodger.

May I ask what your background is and what is your job? I ask because I'm reading a bias in your views that sounds like you are involved in knowledge or case-based systems engineering.

I don't believe reasoning, at least as you define it, is the basis of consciousness. I would argue you could do everything you discuss without being conscious at all. In fact, AI's first big successes in the '50's were in solving the "hard" problems in creating reasoning engines. Pixi aside, were those systems conscious? It was when AI first tried to tackle the "easy" problem of perception that it fell on its face and still has never fully recovered from the hubris and shame.

I think to find the clues for the basis of consciousness you have to look at evolution, see what the simplest brains do and study evolving functionality. What simple and complex brains really do, what they have to do to survive is not essentially reasoning but modeling and prediction. Modeling and prediction subsumes reasoning with sufficient hierarchical complexity but not vice versa.

Neural networks appear to act as Bayesian modeling systems. Many other statistical modeling systems are also consistent with certain neural network studies so perhaps I should just simplify what I said to "connectionist statistical modeling systems". However, I believe the evidence is accumulating rapidly that the main form utilized by brains from the simple to complex is Bayesian. Bayesian modeling systems can have a wonderful variety of capabilities from the simple to the complex. At the most basic, they serve as pattern recognition systems for our basic senses. No reasoning involved. Alternatively, artificial Bayesian networks are being used to construct real-world application for reasoning (e.g. language recognition and processing) even today.

I think, ironically, that you are making some of the same mistakes Pixi has made arguing with me. You are making something analogous to a reification error by equating abstractions with physical or mental processes and actual computation in the brain (see my last post to Pixi in the "are you conscious>" thread). While the brain may, for example, actually directly compute forward and backward chaining operations computed by NNs somehow, I'm not aware of any evidence for this nor do I think it happens. What the brain does is potentially isomorphic to chaining in function but not form. Massively parrallel NNs statistically model a superposition of states of various a priori and a posteriori probabilities and then use a relaxation process to arrive at local or global minima in their "energy/entropy landscape" of possible solutions to find the best or better solutions. The exact nature or natures of the relaxation processes have not been proven in real brains but several workable and successful artifical NN's have been developed that suggests that real brains do something similar. Perhaps one of the best is among the first, i.e., the Boltzmann Machine. I highly recommend you look into it if not already familiar. It will help give you a better connectionist perpective too.
 
A computer displaying that appears to make an inference, but it's not doing anything of the sort. It's just following a program. To make an inference, you have to be aware of certain statements and know whether they're true or false, wouldn't you say?
I'm not arguing that the machine is capable of contextually understanding what it is evaluating but the process it uses (is programmed for) is called "inference". This computer science/mathematical definition of the process is what rocketdodger is referring to.
 
Filters and Reasoning

There is something special about such a filter: it is a form of reasoning. The value of each pixel or retinal neuron are facts about the world and by returning any output the filter is inferring a new fact from those existing ones. In particular, the fact “this area of the image contains shape X” or “this area of the image does not contain shape X.”

And since the basic filter pattern is pretty much all a neuron can do – remember, they sum the incoming impulses and fire once a threshold is surpassed – it turns out all neurons implicitly perform logical reasoning. Each input is an existing fact, and the output is a new fact.

Furthermore, since every neuron’s output is just the input for many more neurons, a BNN (or ANN, for that matter) is actually a type of massively parallel reasoning machine that implements the chaining algorithms implicitly.


This I like some of this very much RD. In my previous post I completely neglected to mention the filtering aspects of neural processing, some of which are completely consistent with Bayesian modeling and some which have different functional pathways that may feed into or filter out from Bayesian modeling - as well as other processses. I didn't mean to indicate that all brains do is Bayesian modeling. You may know that most neural actions are actually inhibitory - not excitatory.

What i don't like about your description here is treating individual neuron inputs as facts. In fact, you seem to suggest that you think the neuron is the locus of information processing. There is no locus just like there is no "grandmother cell". There is only loci and they are the myriad weights and connections between neurons - not in the individual neurons and their activity. Most people never quite grasp this. If you kill a bunch of neurons you can still usually retain good functionality in the network. NNs are massively parallel and redundent and it's the NNs themselves that contain the memories, facts, and neural correlates of reasoning. Individual neurons can also be quite noisy and chaotic (as can some NNs). This is not because they are imperfect biological devices. They use noise to enable their relaxation processes I described in my earlier post. Without neural noise you couldn't think. You need to be aware of this because it doesn't fit well in the current system you are describing.

I hope I've given you some food for thought and haven't offended with my abrupt nature.
 
I'm not arguing that the machine is capable of contextually understanding what it is evaluating but the process it uses (is programmed for) is called "inference". This computer science/mathematical definition of the process is what rocketdodger is referring to.

OK.
 
You may be sorry you invited me here Rocketdodger.

May I ask what your background is and what is your job? I ask because I'm reading a bias in your views that sounds like you are involved in knowledge or case-based systems engineering.

Rocketdodger designs AIs for fun veejoh-gehmz.
 
I personally think it's completely unethical to create a simulation of a sentient being, even if it is educational to do so. I have explained why I felt this to be unethical in the past, though you may or may not agree with me.

INRM

I am guessing you find this unethical because you believe the simulation would be sentient. I can't understand how this would be unethical otherwise.

If the 'simulation of a sentient being' is sentient, then there is no reason to call it a simulation, and you are simply opposed to the creation of sentient beings.

In this case, are you opposed to having children?
 
Ah, so anyone who doesn't agree with this is a troll? :rolleyes:

I don't happen to believe truth is relative (not even sure what you mean by this. Coherence view of truth?) A proposition is true if and only if it corresponds to reality.

What do we do when we meet someone who adamantly believes something to be true even though we have good cause to believe it is false? Should we simply accept what they say? Look at your discussion with RocketDodger. How can you disagree if facts are absolute statements of truth? There may or may not be an objective truth but our internal models of truth must surely be relative.
 
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Third Eye Open,

I find it unethical because a simulation of a sentient being could potentially be sentient. It would be forever trapped in that computer. Experiments that would produce subjective distress could be considered assault or even torture, shutting it off permanently or deleting it, which would probably happen at the end of the experiment would constitute murder.

I'm not opposed to creating sentient beings per-se, I'm opposed to creating sentient beings just for the purpose of an experiment. I should note that I would not consider the creation of a sentient robot or android as being as unethical, so long as it could interact with the world around them. I do express worries that they could end up being used effectively as slave labor, and the possibility that if a bunch of them reached a certain level of intelligence they might decide to either dominate us, or eradicate us.

I am certainly not opposed to having children, but I wouldn't be having a child for the purpose of having an experiment. I would be having a child for the reason that most people do, to carry on the family name, to procreate, to carry on the species basically.
 
What do we do when we meet someone who adamantly believes something to be true even though we have good cause to believe it is false?

What do you do when someone tells you how wonderful auditing is? Or that they're not sure they're conscious? Sometimes you just gotta roll your eyes...

Should we simply accept what they say? Look at your discussion with RocketDodger. How can you disagree if facts are absolute statements of truth?

It's easy to disagree. It's almost impossible to figure out whose right. That has nothing to do with facts though. It's just our sorry epistemological state.


There may or may not be an objective truth but our internal models of truth must surely be relative.

There is an objective truth- it's whatever reality really is. I don't know how you're using "relative".
 
Third Eye Open,

I find it unethical because a simulation of a sentient being could potentially be sentient. It would be forever trapped in that computer. Experiments that would produce subjective distress could be considered assault or even torture, shutting it off permanently or deleting it, which would probably happen at the end of the experiment would constitute murder.

I'm not opposed to creating sentient beings per-se, I'm opposed to creating sentient beings just for the purpose of an experiment. I should note that I would not consider the creation of a sentient robot or android as being as unethical, so long as it could interact with the world around them. I do express worries that they could end up being used effectively as slave labor, and the possibility that if a bunch of them reached a certain level of intelligence they might decide to either dominate us, or eradicate us.

I am certainly not opposed to having children, but I wouldn't be having a child for the purpose of having an experiment. I would be having a child for the reason that most people do, to carry on the family name, to procreate, to carry on the species basically.

If you think that's unethical, how do you feel about destroying a conscious washing machine?
 
Rocketdoger,

Well, other than the fact that I find creating a simulation of a sentient being as unethical, I think you have a series of flaws to your proposal.

I, of course, am reluctant to explain the full details to you because I'm morally opposed to what you're doing, so I don't really feel like giving you pointers.

This is probably the most awesome post I have seen in this forum, over all the years I have been here.

It is so ... clever... and even more so ... because you are entirely serious about it!

lol!!
 
So to further clarify, neural activity is the physical process and reasoning is the abstraction of this process?

Yes.

My interest is whether the abstraction applies equally well to low level neural activity -- such as feature detectors -- as well as high level neural activity -- such as subconscious reasoning that humans constantly perform.

My hunch is that yes, it does apply equally well, and that would explain much.
 
You may be sorry you invited me here Rocketdodger.

Nonsense. If you can convince me that everything I wrote here is garbage then I will be forever grateful. Thats why I made this thread -- to learn.

May I ask what your background is and what is your job? I ask because I'm reading a bias in your views that sounds like you are involved in knowledge or case-based systems engineering.

Artificial Intelligence / Animation programmer. I authored the AI for the enemy type you see pictured in my avatar. Which, I am proud to say, is -- as far as I am aware -- the first AI in a released game that features logic to make use of splash damage in real time.

I wanted to use an ANN for that, actually, but it would have taken too much time to get up and running that way.

I don't believe reasoning, at least as you define it, is the basis of consciousness. I would argue you could do everything you discuss without being conscious at all. In fact, AI's first big successes in the '50's were in solving the "hard" problems in creating reasoning engines. Pixi aside, were those systems conscious? It was when AI first tried to tackle the "easy" problem of perception that it fell on its face and still has never fully recovered from the hubris and shame.

I think to find the clues for the basis of consciousness you have to look at evolution, see what the simplest brains do and study evolving functionality. What simple and complex brains really do, what they have to do to survive is not essentially reasoning but modeling and prediction. Modeling and prediction subsumes reasoning with sufficient hierarchical complexity but not vice versa.

Neural networks appear to act as Bayesian modeling systems. Many other statistical modeling systems are also consistent with certain neural network studies so perhaps I should just simplify what I said to "connectionist statistical modeling systems". However, I believe the evidence is accumulating rapidly that the main form utilized by brains from the simple to complex is Bayesian. Bayesian modeling systems can have a wonderful variety of capabilities from the simple to the complex. At the most basic, they serve as pattern recognition systems for our basic senses. No reasoning involved. Alternatively, artificial Bayesian networks are being used to construct real-world application for reasoning (e.g. language recognition and processing) even today.

I think, ironically, that you are making some of the same mistakes Pixi has made arguing with me. You are making something analogous to a reification error by equating abstractions with physical or mental processes and actual computation in the brain (see my last post to Pixi in the "are you conscious>" thread). While the brain may, for example, actually directly compute forward and backward chaining operations computed by NNs somehow, I'm not aware of any evidence for this nor do I think it happens. What the brain does is potentially isomorphic to chaining in function but not form. Massively parrallel NNs statistically model a superposition of states of various a priori and a posteriori probabilities and then use a relaxation process to arrive at local or global minima in their "energy/entropy landscape" of possible solutions to find the best or better solutions. The exact nature or natures of the relaxation processes have not been proven in real brains but several workable and successful artifical NN's have been developed that suggests that real brains do something similar. Perhaps one of the best is among the first, i.e., the Boltzmann Machine. I highly recommend you look into it if not already familiar. It will help give you a better connectionist perpective too.

I think you are jumping the gun when it comes to responding here, but you seem to understand with your statement "What the brain does is potentially isomorphic to chaining in function but not form."

Because I am not saying a NN actually chains from fact to fact in a way that is nice and clean and readable by a human. What I am suggesting is that the function of a NN might be more understandable if viewed in such a manner.

I am going to look into what you bring up.
 
This I like some of this very much RD. In my previous post I completely neglected to mention the filtering aspects of neural processing, some of which are completely consistent with Bayesian modeling and some which have different functional pathways that may feed into or filter out from Bayesian modeling - as well as other processses. I didn't mean to indicate that all brains do is Bayesian modeling. You may know that most neural actions are actually inhibitory - not excitatory.

What i don't like about your description here is treating individual neuron inputs as facts. In fact, you seem to suggest that you think the neuron is the locus of information processing. There is no locus just like there is no "grandmother cell". There is only loci and they are the myriad weights and connections between neurons - not in the individual neurons and their activity. Most people never quite grasp this. If you kill a bunch of neurons you can still usually retain good functionality in the network. NNs are massively parallel and redundent and it's the NNs themselves that contain the memories, facts, and neural correlates of reasoning. Individual neurons can also be quite noisy and chaotic (as can some NNs). This is not because they are imperfect biological devices. They use noise to enable their relaxation processes I described in my earlier post. Without neural noise you couldn't think. You need to be aware of this because it doesn't fit well in the current system you are describing.

I hope I've given you some food for thought and haven't offended with my abrupt nature.

I don't think single neurons do squat, actually. The only reason I am viewing individual neural inputs as facts is because it conveys the general idea that stuff goes into a network and other stuff comes out, and the only vectors for entrance and exit are synapses.

I do have to look into this relaxation of which you speak, but for now, let me ask you this -- is it not true that a NN can be taught to respond to a given set of inputs in a certain way? Because that is really what I am basing all of this on -- that there are sub-networks in our brain that get a whole bunch of input from various other sub-networks, do their NN thing, and respond a certain way.

I mean, I know for a fact that is how feature detectors work, and how simple ANN's work. So my theory was that this same type of process might occur all the way up into higher levels. It would explain alot about human thought patterns, among other things. And this process can be modeled, as you say, by Bayesian inference.

Are you saying that the mechanisms of which you speak -- such as the Boltzmann thing -- can't be modeled by a suitably configured Bayesian network?
 
What do you do when someone tells you how wonderful auditing is? ... Sometimes you just gotta roll your eyes...

Oh, I do roll my eyes. I have certain levels of confidence. What you said is really an opinion though. A factual statement would be something more along the lines of "Auditing works. It clears the harmful thetans from your body." When I read about auditing I try to understand the origin of it's belief and compare it to other pseudo-scientific claims.

It's easy to disagree. It's almost impossible to figure out whose right. That has nothing to do with facts though. It's just our sorry epistemological state.

Exactly, and here's the problem. People sometimes disagree over facts. It suggests an imperfection in our ability to perceive and understand facts.

There is an objective truth- it's whatever reality really is. I don't know how you're using "relative".

What if reality is shifting from one moment to another in possibly subtle and possibly profound ways? It's not that important though. Maybe there is an objective reality. If we could all equally experience "ultimate reality" in its fullness then there would be no room for debate. We all seem hopelessly biased, imperfect, and limited. When I say "relative model of truth", I'm saying that we experience truth through that relative lens of our biases and imperfections.

Or that they're not sure they're conscious?

That's an interesting idea from your perspective. You and I can form articulate ideas. I'm sure we could find plenty of common ground on many subjects. What about other people who have had a total break from our shared reality? Are they conscious?
 
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I don't think single neurons do squat, actually.

Well, that's probably a good standard way of thinking but I could give you many exceptions (Circadian rhythms being one - but the efforts of many neurons are duplicated) . Since I want you to continue your efforts to think in PDP (parallel distributed processing) terms I'm good.

The only reason I am viewing individual neural inputs as facts is because it conveys the general idea that stuff goes into a network and other stuff comes out, and the only vectors for entrance and exit are synapses.
Well, since you are an engineer who sounds like he's considered using stuff like perceptrons and back-propagation (BP) I can see where your bias probably comes from. Furthermore, obviously all computational systems whether brains or digital computers have some form of I/O.

The dirty truth is that ANNs are still toys compared to the brain. You quite rightly mentioned neural filters. Much of the brain is filtering, transforming and preprocessing before (or in parallel with) any of the stuff you may consider more important, like reasoning, even happens. You are probably familiar with Hubel and Weisel's groundbreaking discoveries in visual processing many years ago now. A huge part of the visual cortex is devoted just to stuff like distinguishing visual pixels into line recognition, edge recognition, and on and on. It's like a tub of fourier transforms, Kalman filters, chaotic correlators, potential fractal modeling and all sorts of stuff that comes together that doesn't just get input into some hieracrhcial reasoning NN (that may happen) but simply form a reasoning engine by all working in paralllel and coordinating discovery of the solution space in parallel through many processes of which relaxation is but one. Some people use holographic processing as a working analogy and it may be apt. In fact, holographic ANNs have been successfully developed and applied - including by me (I found them less efficient that BP but BP probably doesn't really happen in real brains either).

I do have to look into this relaxation of which you speak

I have little doubt you'll find it worthwhile. Simulated annealing is one form of relaxation process. It is the same process by which samurai swords are heated and cooled to harden steel - by enabling the atoms to settle into their lowest energy state with the greatest strength.

, but for now, let me ask you this -- is it not true that a NN can be taught to respond to a given set of inputs in a certain way? Because that is really what I am basing all of this on -- that there are sub-networks in our brain that get a whole bunch of input from various other sub-networks, do their NN thing, and respond a certain way.

I mean, I know for a fact that is how feature detectors work, and how simple ANN's work. So my theory was that this same type of process might occur all the way up into higher levels. It would explain alot about human thought patterns, among other things. And this process can be modeled, as you say, by Bayesian inference.

The answer to your question is basically yes. But you need to realize that there are basically two forms of NN's - supervised and unsupervised. A supervises NN learns to map inputs to outputs where the outputs are continuously presented for feedback. My first commercial use of NNs back in the 80's was to train them to predict the gambling odds to winning in pro and college sports based on all sorts of historical input data. BP NNs are of this type. Unsupervised NNs, like the original Kohonen NN's have no output data to train on. They simply find patterns in input data akin to statistical clusteriing. Unsupervised NN's often feed into supervised NN's and vice versa. It can get quite complicated. Such hybrid systems have been successfully applied to character and speech recognition.

Are you saying that the mechanisms of which you speak -- such as the Boltzmann thing -- can't be modeled by a suitably configured Bayesian network?
You know, I need to think about that but I think the answer is probably no in principle (i.e., they can be modeled) but perhaps yes in practice because in connectionist terms the computational requirements are going to be more efficient for one of the other under different circumstances (purposes). I hesitate because as implemented in ANN's the two are different and distinct and nobody tries to map one to the other. Doesn't mean they ain't isomorphic though. Not sure on this one.
 
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