Video Game Watchdog Shuts Down!

And I really can't sympathize with your desire for 9 years olds to be able to simulate sex acts.

But it's perfectly okay for a 9-year-old to simulate (mass) murder, right? :rolleyes:
The game wasn't targeted at 9-year-olds. If your 9-year-old kid is playing GTA, you have no reason whatsoever to be outraged if he somehow stumbles on the difficult hack to unlock the sex mini-game, because before this point he will have simulated several murders -- which means you should have been outraged and confiscated the game long before that.

People who complain about the Hot Coffee mod are disgusting hypocrites of the highest order. That blowjob is possibly the only legal act you can commit in the entire game!
 
You just made my day. :) Thanks! Didn't realize Jack was finally called to account for his lack of professionalism.


Yeah, but he's still managing to hold onto his twit status by suing facebook because of groups offering $50 to slap him in the face or hit him with an Atari 2600. :newlol
 
This Film Is Not Yet Rated demonstrates that self-regulated censorship doesn't work very well. Nor would government regulation either (shades of Tipper Gore, anyone?). None of it will ever be effective in shaping society.

Kids are gonna get what they want to find. Both the ESRB and MPAA, from my understanding, are based on fairly secretive panels whose findings tend to fall into two arbitrary moral categories: (1) any depiction or referece to sex=no effing way; or (2) violence=eh, I don't know, it depends. There could be blood and guts galore, but if characters don't really look dead, then maybe it's not so bad. Batman Arkham Asylum might be a good example of that (massive violence, little death, and also quite a fun game).

Mass Effect was mature game? I recall killing mostly robots, no swearing, a little kissing with an alien (and who knows what that corruption could lead to), and almost zero blood.

There's little rhyme or reason to what's designated M, R, Teen, PG-13, etcetera. Those rules are dictated by what a scant few people think. And that's the end of my rant.
 
Both the ESRB and MPAA, from my understanding, are based on fairly secretive panels whose findings tend to fall into two arbitrary moral categories: (1) any depiction or referece to sex=no effing way; or (2) violence=eh, I don't know, it depends. There could be blood and guts galore, but if characters don't really look dead, then maybe it's not so bad. Batman Arkham Asylum might be a good example of that (massive violence, little death, and also quite a fun game).

Absolutely False for the ESRB as I communicate with them every single day with my job, and I know exactly how they deal with ratings and the process to rate games.

ESRB doesn't care what is in a game. You could have double penetration or pixies spreading dust over little furry animals in the forest. they just want PUBLISHERS to be honest in WHAT is in a game. The former would get an AO rating, the latter an EC or E rating (depending on what other content there is).

Publishers spend hours to catalog EVER single bit of dialogue in a game, every single bit of text in a game. They also have to provide any animated/in game movie that shows any type of violence, and if blood is involved, that has to be captured as well. This is submitted in the form DVD's and also screen caps.

The Batman game. Every single move he makes against an enemy on screen, that is capture. Any weapon he weilds and uses against an enemy that has to be captured.

Music games? ALL lyrics from the songs have to be submitted for ESRB approval.

Mass Effect was mature game? I recall killing mostly robots, no swearing, a little kissing with an alien (and who knows what that corruption could lead to), and almost zero blood.

ESRB policy that anytime you point a "gun" at an individual (robot or otherwise) the ratings will start at Teen. IT goes up when the "violence" is portrayed often on screen. And dont forget that the game depicted a pseudo sex scene with options of having it girl on girl. That content is also rated with the rest of the game, EVEN though that part of the game is a option in the course of game play (you can choose not to have that happen, by the choices you make)

There's little rhyme or reason to what's designated M, R, Teen, PG-13, etcetera.

Actually, THERE is quite a list of minimum requirements how the ESRB and MPAA rates games and movies.

For ESRB, there is a minimum requirement list for each rating. With thousands of games published, that list is very extensive, and publishers can pretty much guess what their game will get as a rating based on the content as the game is being developed. Many of the info sheets we get, in the ESRB rating section (if the game hasn't been rated yet) - we have listed "Possible: (rating)" . An upcoming game we are producing; it wont be rated for another year or so, but we already know its going to get an M rating just based on what content we have received so far.


And dont even get me started on how advertising for games have to be approved by the ESRB as well. That in itself is another process.
 
Absolutely False for the ESRB as I communicate with them every single day with my job, and I know exactly how they deal with ratings and the process to rate games.

ESRB doesn't care what is in a game. You could have double penetration or pixies spreading dust over little furry animals in the forest. they just want PUBLISHERS to be honest in WHAT is in a game. The former would get an AO rating, the latter an EC or E rating (depending on what other content there is).

Publishers spend hours to catalog EVER single bit of dialogue in a game, every single bit of text in a game. They also have to provide any animated/in game movie that shows any type of violence, and if blood is involved, that has to be captured as well. This is submitted in the form DVD's and also screen caps.


According to Wikipedia, the ESRB assigns three whole people to determine the rating of a game. If it were solely a matter of matching submitted content up to a list of arbitrary appropriateness rules, there'd be no need for human involvement. Just plug the data into a simple computer program, and bingo, there's your rating.

Context matters, and therein lies the problem. Human beings are making their own value judgments, list be damned. A Harvard study (yes, appeal to authority) had this to say:

http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/249387.html

Each game was played for one hour and the content observed was compared to the ESRB's descriptors. The researchers concluded that the ESRB "inconsistently assigned content descriptors to some games but not to others with the same content. Based on these observations along with recent limited evidence showing that many children and adolescents play M-rated games, the study authors suggest that parents and physicians should play an active role in discussing game content with kids."

Lead researcher Thompson commented, "It's time for the industry to provide complete, consistent, and clear information about what is really in games so that parents can make more informed decisions when selecting games for and with their children... even though the M-rating might imply restricted access to these games, the existing, limited evidence suggests that many children and adolescents are playing M-rated games."
A reliable ratings system is a good idea as a very loose guideline for the ultimate parental choice, but the current system can't be taken that seriously.

The Batman game. Every single move he makes against an enemy on screen, that is capture. Any weapon he weilds and uses against an enemy that has to be captured.

Music games? ALL lyrics from the songs have to be submitted for ESRB approval.

ESRB policy that anytime you point a "gun" at an individual (robot or otherwise) the ratings will start at Teen. IT goes up when the "violence" is portrayed often on screen.


In effect, you can beat the hell out of somebody six ways to Sunday if you're not wielding a gun. But the "s" word or showing a nipple is too much of a negative influence on teens. This suggest to me very much that the ESRB does indeed care what's in a game.


And dont forget that the game depicted a pseudo sex scene with options of having it girl on girl. That content is also rated with the rest of the game, EVEN though that part of the game is a option in the course of game play (you can choose not to have that happen, by the choices you make)


I'm not sure why the homosexual aspect is noteworthy. The sex scene, as I remember it, paled in comparison to pretty much any soap opera love scene kids may be exposed to. It was very, very tame -- I see no reason why teens should somehow be shielded from it.



Actually, THERE is quite a list of minimum requirements how the ESRB and MPAA rates games and movies.


Of course there are, the issue is how they're inconsistently applied.

For ESRB, there is a minimum requirement list for each rating. With thousands of games published, that list is very extensive, and publishers can pretty much guess what their game will get as a rating based on the content as the game is being developed. Many of the info sheets we get, in the ESRB rating section (if the game hasn't been rated yet) - we have listed "Possible: (rating)" . An upcoming game we are producing; it wont be rated for another year or so, but we already know its going to get an M rating just based on what content we have received so far.


Like I said, I understand that there is a system in place, by the definition of "system". I just think it's a poor system.


And dont even get me started on how advertising for games have to be approved by the ESRB as well. That in itself is another process.


Actually I'd be interested in hearing about it.
 
Oh good heavens! A tool to allow parents to make more informed decisions about how their children spend their time.

Right... because civilization will come to crashing halt if a 7 year old sees a digial depiction of a shoot someone or human genitalia... or <shudder> human genitalia being used.

America: Land of the prig, Home of the prude! :mad:
 
According to Wikipedia, the ESRB assigns three whole people to determine the rating of a game. If it were solely a matter of matching submitted content up to a list of arbitrary appropriateness rules, there'd be no need for human involvement. Just plug the data into a simple computer program, and bingo, there's your rating.

Um, i would trust Wikipedia as fast as I could hit the back button on my browser, on that claim. Its not true.

this is what Wikipedia states in their article:
On its website, the ESRB states that three trained raters, working independently, watch the footage and recommend a rating.
This is straight from ESRB's website:
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.jsp#14
Each ESRB rating is based on the consensus of at least three specially trained raters who view content based on numerous criteria.
I've bolded the qualifier statement that was omitted from the Wikipedia article.


At least 3. It doesn't mean that all games only get 3. A big product game with tons of footage, screens, text and lyrics to review for an M rating, would get more reviewers for the title than say a game that is vying for an E rating. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare may get at least 3 reviewers just going over the content in the game, but a game like the Imagine series by Ubisoft may only need 3 reviewers for the title.

It all depends on the title, as to how many reviewers the game will get to review for rating. The ESRB knows how many to assign to a game, by the type of content they receive to review. If they are given 20 pages of text dialogue, 10 pages of music lyrics and 6 hours of video footage to review, the title may be assigned 5 reviewers. But a game that has only 100 screenshots, and 2 pages of text (mostly menu text), then 3 reviewers is probably all the game will need.

Context matters, and therein lies the problem. Human beings are making their own value judgments, list be damned. A Harvard study (yes, appeal to authority) had this to say:

http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/249387.html

A reliable ratings system is a good idea as a very loose guideline for the ultimate parental choice, but the current system can't be taken that seriously.
Its a report from 2006. its now 2009. A lot has changed at the ESRB since the time this article was written.

As for not taken seriously? Why? as a parent, they see the rating. If its an M, then they should know that the game is meant for adults (It specifically states M for Mature 17+). In the end, its all to parents responsibility. If the game rated M says that it has Intense Violence, Partial Nudity, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Use of Drugs ; that is definitely a lot of information being given to that purchaser of what is in the game.

I still see parents will buy Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto for their 10 year old kid, despite the big honking "M" on the front of the cover.

You can have all the labeling you want to tell you what is in the game, you could have it in 60 point font, stating "SEXUAL CONTENT", yet parents will still buy these games for their children.

In effect, you can beat the hell out of somebody six ways to Sunday if you're not wielding a gun. But the "s" word or showing a nipple is too much of a negative influence on teens. This suggest to me very much that the ESRB does indeed care what's in a game.
Yes they dont care what's in a game. They only care that publishers are honest with whats in it so that they game is rated CORRECTLY. Hiding any content, or not making content known that would affect an original rating adversely, publishers should be fined for it (and the fines aren't some slap on the wrist type of fine, it affects the publishers future titles as well by having longer rating reviews, expecting MORE content to be submitted in order to rate a game; demanding to get content where the game is almost completed instead of mid way through development, etc)


I'm not sure why the homosexual aspect is noteworthy. The sex scene, as I remember it, paled in comparison to pretty much any soap opera love scene kids may be exposed to. It was very, very tame -- I see no reason why teens should somehow be shielded from it.
If you noticed that many of the Soap Operas and TV serials targeted for adult, you see are rated TV-PG - TV-MA. They also air during a time when most children are in school or after 8pm in the evening.

And again, parental responsibility.

Of course there are, the issue is how they're inconsistently applied.
You'll have to give specific examples of how they are inconsistently applied.


Like I said, I understand that there is a system in place, by the definition of "system". I just think it's a poor system.
You have to provide specific examples of how this is a poor system. Its the only system we have; no other type of system has been offered to replace it or improve it.

A valid criticism is that they may not have enough content descriptors to describe what is in a game, but I can tell you right now, that a parent purchasing the game would not even take a second glance at whats listed in that section. All they want to see is if its E, T, M or not. But they've updated descriptors and removed (due to better ones) descriptors over the years.

But through it all, and I'll repeat it. Parental responsibility. In the end, the only reason why a child would have an M rated game in their hands and are playing it is because their parents allowed them to have it. I dont care if the kid received the game as a gift, its still their parents responsibility to keep that game in the home.

I understand the position that the ESRB has to take and also understand the frustration some people may have with their rating system. And I understand from the publisher stand point of how it can be difficult to fall into the guidelines for the games they produce.

But at least we have them to provide information on the titles that are being released every year. 1000 titles a year is what they have to deal with.


As for advertising, the guidelines are very simple, but they can nitpick on how things are being shown. Its more for M Rated titles, but it goes for all titles:

No intense violence sequences, no graphic violence or excessive showing of blood, and when possible show the ratings information and descriptors.
 
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You're saying the ESRB website is wrong? (The Wikipedia claims are sourced to the ESRB site, specifically this).

as stated in my reply above this, the Wikipedia article misquotes the page:

Once the submission is checked by ESRB for completeness, which may also involve ESRB staff members playing a beta or alpha version of the game, the video footage is reviewed by at least three specially trained game raters. ESRB raters must be adults and typically have experience with children, whether through prior work experience, education or by being parents or caregivers themselves.
 

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