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Are You Conscious?

Are you concious?

  • Of course, what a stupid question

    Votes: 89 61.8%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 40 27.8%
  • No

    Votes: 15 10.4%

  • Total voters
    144
My inking about UE, which I think he confirmed once to me but I'll let him speak for himself, is that he believes in something like psi or ghosts or wants to believe and he's looking for a philosophical justification for this. And he's smart enough to find the best arguments to give his views a chance. I'm always leery of those who backfit data and ideas like this. But we're all guilty of it from time to time so I'd be a hypocrite to try to judge him too harshly.

FUWF,

My views on "the paranormal" are well known on this board, not least because it was during the period when I was first posting here (this is my second account, the first had another 10,000 now-deleted posts and was opened on the day this forum opened for business) that I went from being an atheist trying to logically disprove the existence of the God of Abraham, to a person who was experiencing extreme "reality disturbances" of a mystical sort. I was posting prolifically on this board at the time, and there was also no moderation whatsoever.

I believe certain sorts of phenomena are possible which would be categorised as mystical by anyone who experienced them. The reason I believe those specific things are possible is because I have experienced them. My wider views on philosophy and religion are partly driven by those experiences, partly inherited from my previous worldview and partly developed over the intervening decade, during which I spent three years at University studying the most critical topics I was interested in.

In the end, my views are driven by a need to try to eliminate inconsistencies throughout everything I believe. Somehow, it all has to fit together. That means my views on science, political reality, mystical experience, philosophy and my own personal morality all have to as consistent as I can make them. This is a work in progress.

Geoff
 
Do you feel the same way about the term "altered states of consciousness"?

I like it only a little better, primarily because both phrases have been tainted by the woo-lovers and a-holes like Deepak Chopra. I'd prefer simply to say that I jogged or catalyzed my brain chemistry and/or hallucinatory ability via natural or artificial means and if I extracted any useful ideas or insights from same it was due to my disciplined skeptical filtering ability.

Beyond our own ego-self, I would say. And as I'm sure you're willing to acknowledge, there is more to consciousness than our ego.

Limbo, I argued reams about defining consciousness at Dawkins and I'm not sure I want to rewrite it all here. Dawkins' search feature is totally f-ed up so I can't find them ot reprint them.

I don't like to define imprecisely- or non-consensually agreed terms with other flaky terms and ego is one of those. A lot of what most people to be "consciousness" I consider to be unconscious. I view consciousness as a form of data compression that acts at the tip of the iceberg of our mental processes. Much of what you call the ego I believe is subconscious as well as most of cognition. I prefer to deal with the aspects of consciousness called qualia when dealing with the valid types of issues people like you and UE raise. The other aspects of what people call consciousness may be quite valid but they tend to blur distinctions that derail debate.

If there is some aspect of ego you can succinctly define I'd be happy to render an opinion on it though.

A couple of things. That you associate skepticism with atheism, that atheism is compatible with mysticism, that God is a metaphor, and that the when a skeptic/athiest escapes that particular metaphor they are in danger of being caught by new metaphors that replace the old. Universal computer, for instance.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God or a positive assertion there can be no gods. Atheism is neutral with respect to non-supernatural mysticism, if there is such a thing as well as my Universal computer ideas. Whatever association you gleaned from my posts is merely correlation, not causation. There are rational atheists who skeptically conclude there is insufficient evidence to support belief in a god(s) (or my Universal computer ideas) and irrational atheists who may have just been brought up to assert there is no god without really thinking it through. Such atheists are more prone to New Age nonsense and woo. Most scientists/engineers in computer innovation tend to be the former than the later. The key is really rationalism and skepticism, not atheism.
 
That's funny, because I have no evidence that YOU have private behaviours, except through your public ones.

No, the evidence you have that other people have experiences is that you do, and they seem to behave the same way - and toasters don't. There is nothing in public behaviour that indicates sensation except the assertion of sensation.

We are unable to make or rebut the claim of experience for anything with certainty, except our own experiencer.
 
The part I highlighted is definitely true and has been proven mathematically by others besides Lloyd.

I don't think we know enough, and certainly I don't, to say to you with conviction that I completely agree with that first part of statement but i do consider it one of several plausible digital physics postulates. Others who espouse my basic philosophy do not agree that the computational basis of our universe has to be based on a quantum computer but there are some compelling reasons to believe this based solely on the nature of QM itself and the probability that it is a major door by which we will come to understand the more fundamental computational levels that underlie reality. Particularly intriguing is the seemlessness by which a computational view can yield non-locality and the very nature of quanta, if expanded as many scientists believe, to time and space, enables us to actually view reality as a discrete set of computed cycles. It also renders Zeno's Paradox a non-issue..

This is an interesting postulate, but the universe as we now understand it appears to be entirely non-computable. It may be that reality is discreet, but that is not known so far. As with string theory, we'll start to judge the theory when it makes useful predictions.
 
OK, I don't understand what position you are defending. Half of what you say makes you sound like a phenomenalist or idealist. The other half sounds like materialism.

I don't understand why you think that information-processing entities should experience anything at all. I can't see where you have answered that question, apart from to say that you think it is logically necessary that anything which processes information experiences things. Why is it logically necessary?

I thought I had done a decent job at explaining my views even if you didn't think I supported them adequetly. I'll try to explain myself better if you have specific questions.

To answer this one: I'm not saying that anything which processes information experiences. I'm saying that if something doesn't process information then it doesn't experience. I think that's something we can agree on. What do you think?
 
This is an interesting postulate, but the universe as we now understand it appears to be entirely non-computable.

Please explain. So far, there is nothing we have discovered in the universe beyond mathematical representation of a computable type. Are you referring to the argument that the entire thing can't be simulated due to other limitations? That would be a different argument.

From my perspective, one of the most interesting facets that almost all scientists exploring digital physics/philosophy agree on today is the core postulate that nothing exists in this universe that isn't computable by a Universal Turing Machine. To my knowledge we know of no such physical entities. Perhaps just as amazing is the postulate that no mathematics that can't be computed by a Universal Turing Machine can have a corresponding existence in the universe. Here i highly recommned Chaitin's Lisbon lectures on YouTube. They are very accessible to the Layman. Even if you don't buy my ideas you will learn some very unusual things about mathematics and computation and their limits that you might not be aware of. And it is these limits that yield some of Digital Physics predictions about what we will discover about the universe/multiverse.
 
I thought I had done a decent job at explaining my views even if you didn't think I supported them adequetly. I'll try to explain myself better if you have specific questions.

To answer this one: I'm not saying that anything which processes information experiences. I'm saying that if something doesn't process information then it doesn't experience. I think that's something we can agree on. What do you think?

Yes, I can agree to that. :)
 
FUWF,

Perhaps I should add, although you probably realise this already, that I don't like faith any more than you do, and for similar reasons. Faith gets used as an excuse to not think for yourself, or to not have to answer awkward questions. I wouldn't say I'd like faith to be replaced by skepticism in my society (although it's nothing like as big a problem here anyway), but I'd certainly like to see it replaced with critical thinking. I also (occasionally) post on the biggest Christian forum on the net and more than once, having demolished some person's argument, they responded by basically saying "I kinda lost the argument but I still believe. That proves my faith is stronger than yours. So there!" There's nothing you can do at this point except walk away.

But then I don't think you need to have an avid faith to suffer from a lack of critical thinking. It seems to be that most human beings are happy to have a belief system with dodgy foundations, and very few like their own foundational beliefs being challenged, regardless of whether or not they call it "faith." It seems to be a normal part of the human condition. It's just easier not to think too hard about things which might force you to make major changes in your belief system, so most people don't bother. If I was a fan of evolutionary psychology, I'd put it down to the need for tribal cohesion. Can't have too many leaders. Better to have lots of followers.

Geoff
 
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FUWF,

Perhaps I should add, although you probably realise this already, that I don't like faith any more than you do, and for similar reasons. Faith gets used as an excuse to not think for yourself, or to not have to answer awkward questions. I wouldn't say I'd like faith to be replaced by skepticism in my society (although it's nothing like as big a problem here anyway), but I'd certainly like to see it replaced with critical thinking. I also (occasionally) post on the biggest Christian forum on the net and more than once, having demolished some person's argument, they responded by basically saying "I kinda lost the argument but I still believe. That proves my faith is stronger than yours. So there!" There's nothing you can do at this point except walk away.

But then I don't think you need to have an avid faith to suffer from a lack of critical thinking. It seems to be that most human beings are happy to have a belief system with dodgy foundations, and very few like their own foundational beliefs being challenged, regardless of whether or not they call it "faith." It seems to be a normal part of the human condition. It's just easier not to think too hard about things which might force you to make major changes in your belief system, so most people don't bother. If I was a fan of evolutionary psychology, I'd put it down to the need for tribal cohesion. Can't have too many leaders. Better to have lots of followers.

Geoff

Completely agree :).

I am led to reflect and wonder why we were so at each other's throats at Dawkins. ...Probably more of an ego clash than a clash of fundamental values. I suppose I thought you always had a hidden agenda there. What appears to be (or have been) out in the open here concerning your mystical experiences was something I never read about at Dawkins and I thought you were keeping it a secret.

Since I respect your intelligence and values as expressed above very much, one day I hope you will feel comfortable enough to share them with me - or simply refer me to the relevant posts here. I'd be willing to share what you would probably call my mystical experiences too - even though it appears we both drew different conclusions from them.

I don't think I will ever understand your philosophy fully until I understand what motivates you to eliminate the inconsistencies between your philosophical options and your experiences. I would promise to try to be respectful in my potential critique if you share these experiences again as I admit I haven't always been in the past (e.g. with Limbo and others).
 
Please explain. So far, there is nothing we have discovered in the universe beyond mathematical representation of a computable type.

We can't compute what happens in the quantum area because it is, AFAWAA, a matter of probability. That doesn't mean that it can't be mathematically represented, but it can't be computed.
 
OK...to be perfectly honest I'm not a great mathematician and the subtle differences you are discussing above aren't of any great significance to me. I can understand why they might be of great significance to somebody else.

Actually, my friend, they should matter to you for reasons I'll flush out later. I realize you're not a mathematician or physicist and perhaps feel you don't have the chops for it. But i also know you're a a very smart guy. If you really want to sharpen your philosophy more and give legs to what I'll argue you have difficulty supporting, you'll make the effort if you can. More importantly, it might open you up to new ideas and epiphanies. Otherwise, you'll be in the same boat vs. me that I was in with you before I made the effort to study Kant and Wittgenstein in depth (and still butt my head against in residual ignorance)

Brahman. "Brahmin" is a Hindu holy man.
Yes, my bad. But remember I was pulling this out of my head from 2 years ago or more.

Atman=Brahman couldn't really be more explicit. It means the root of personal existence is numerically identical to the root of all existence. Both are also, ultimately, equivalent to absolute nothingness, which is also infinity.

This sounds too much like a Hindu mystical text. High-falutin words with no legs to stand on. Intuitively compelling but hard to support. That is why I always felt, as I said in one of my first posts, that I thought I could make your ideas more compatible with mine. Tegmark, Schmidhuber (via Kolmogorov), Cantor, and last but far from least, Chaitin can help you give that statement some legs. I know you've at least superficially studied Cantor. You need to read Chaitin. He has plenty of stuff a layman can understand you can follow. I couldn't recommend it more.

In digital physics there are actually several "schools" about how zero/infinity play a role in computability and hence reality. Certain forms deny infinity can exist to be expressed as physical at all while more fringe versions relying on theoretical hypercomputation demand it to exist.

OK...there's two much in here where we need to go back over the details before I could give you a sensible response.

My position is that the realm of information is the only things which actually exists, and that what we think of as "matter" and "consciousness" are just component parts of it. They only make sense from our own point of view. If we could have a "God's-eye view", there would just be information, plus this entity which I describe as zero/infinity.

Ibid. How does this entity of zero/infinity interact with "information". What distinguishes their representation? How does one potentially serve as a framework for the other or are they independent? Have you given thought to any of this? Does the realm of information have to be one well from which both consciousness and matter derive or can they interact in parallel or recapitulated forms via the still somewhat mysterious notion of self-referentiality that I and others have discussed. It appears you believe the former and I the later. We could both be right or wrong since I suspect there are other options. But in either case, if you wish to explore this further, you will make a deeper attempt to look at the essence of mathematics.
 
We can't compute what happens in the quantum area because it is, AFAWAA, a matter of probability. That doesn't mean that it can't be mathematically represented, but it can't be computed.


Ah, I see your point. But it doesn't conflict in any manner with any of my claims. The theory behind my claims and their instantiation are two different things. QM is fully computable but just like the self-referential nature of UE's consciousness I can't force my equations to compute a given QM event or a state of UE qualia to match our reality. It would present a separate reality. That does not deny, however, that computation underlies the instantiation of what's going on in our reality - we simply can't access the computation.
 
Completely agree :).

I am led to reflect and wonder why we were so at each other's throats at Dawkins. ...Probably more of an ego clash than a clash of fundamental values. I suppose I thought you always had a hidden agenda there. What appears to be (or have been) out in the open here concerning your mystical experiences was something I never read about at Dawkins and I thought you were keeping it a secret.

When the events I am refering to happened, I was still trying to take the atheistic/scientific community with me, partly because I didn't want to go there on my own, and partly because I thought that since many of these people believed something very similar to what I believed for most of my life, they ought to know. I don't care much for keeping secrets. But I learned from the responses I got at that time that sometimes it is better not to just talk openly about things which are likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by most of the people you are talking to. I learned that you need to get the groundwork out of the way first - that you need to tailor the message/argument to the person you are talking to. If I were to start talking about the specific things which happened to me right now in this thread, the result would be a complete derail.

Since I respect your intelligence and values as expressed above very much, one day I hope you will feel comfortable enough to share them with me - or simply refer me to the relevant posts here.

Mercifully, they got deleted...
 
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This sounds too much like a Hindu mystical text. High-falutin words with no legs to stand on. Intuitively compelling but hard to support.

Of course it is hard to support. If it could be "supported", then it would be philosophy and not religion. And yes, they are "high-falutin" words, and this is recognised by the Hindus themselves. It's no good just saying them. You also have to live your life accordingly.

Ibid. How does this entity of zero/infinity interact with "information".

Something to do with free will, "awareness" and quantum randomness.

What distinguishes their representation?

Don't understand the question.

How does one potentially serve as a framework for the other or are they independent?

The zero/infinity comes first. From it comes opposition - Yin and Yang, or mathematical positive and negative. From that comes something resembling mathematics.

Does the realm of information have to be one well from which both consciousness and matter derive or can they interact in parallel or recapitulated forms via the still somewhat mysterious notion of self-referentiality that I and others have discussed.

Not "one well". It is all that exists. Nothing comes from the informational realm. The informational realm comes from nothingness/infinity. Nothing else exists. Matter and consciousness are both "illusions". They are both partial descriptions of things-as-they-are-in-themselves.
 
We can't compute what happens in the quantum area because it is, AFAWAA, a matter of probability. That doesn't mean that it can't be mathematically represented, but it can't be computed.
We've already covered that. Repeatedly.

Quantum events can be computed to arbitrary accuracy and precision. Your objection is only of significance if you can show that arbitrary accuracy and precision is not good enough for some specific real-world case. I don't even know how you'd begin to do that.
 
OK, we agree blue light presentation, as we each perceive it corresponds to wavelengths of about 450-495 nm, yes?

However, how do you know or how can you prove that what you experience as blue (the qualia of blue) is the same as UE? How do you know that what he experiences isn't more like your yellow or your red?
Yes, that's what I'm asking. What does that mean?
 
Of course it is hard to support. If it could be "supported", then it would be philosophy and not religion. And yes, they are "high-falutin" words, and this is recognised by the Hindus themselves. It's no good just saying them. You also have to live your life accordingly.

You seem to be implicitly acknowledging a weakness in your arguments and/or beliefs. I appreciate the honesty.

Something to do with free will, "awareness" and quantum randomness.

I was looking for a logical, coherent, and cohesive foundational framework that could explain reality based on information and 0/infinity. Free will and awareness may be first or second order effects stemming from this foundation (if free will exists at all) but I don't see how they serve as a cornerstone of any reality construct from which everything else derives. Quantum randomness may provide such a cornerstone for both reality, awareness, and free will but that is no longer clear. When most multiverse theories are considered, quantum randomness may evaporate, as it does under many conceptualizations in digital physics. I think you'd find more fruitful ground for foundational randomness in Chaitin's work relevant to the arbitrary and random empirical aspects of mathematics itself. i think quantum randomness, if it persists across the multiverse (this is highly debated) probably has a deeper foundation in the nature of information and math itself. That is what I'm hoping you'll investigate because as it stands, i don't see you offering any remotely plausible means to coherent unite your concepts yet.

Don't understand the question.

...

The zero/infinity comes first. From it comes opposition - Yin and Yang, or mathematical positive and negative. From that comes something resembling mathematics.
This is somewhat of a reiteration of the first question that you already answered by essentially saying "I don't know". That's a fair answer. I don't like when people feel they have to provide an answer and fill in mystical nonsense-sounding BS.

To review my understanding of your position, you seem to be representing 0/infinity as the catalyst of the framework for the mysterious lattice of information that yields the illusion we call reality. I'm not sure I see the need or understand the basis for pushing this view other than the fact that it comes from Hindu ideas you liked. Why is 0/infinity not considered information, i.e., it has no messaging aspect to inform the other information that underlies reality?

Let me try to concretize things a bit. Have you studied Zuse, Fredkin, or Wolfram ideas and simulations that provide insight as to how cellular automata in computing space could enable math and information to yield what you consider to be reality or an illusion thereof? Do any other these ideas resonate with you or map to yours? Could they provide the plausible mechanism for your ideas? If so, can you provide a plausible mechanism by which 0/infinity works to initiate that framework? Could it be, rather, that it acts through the nature of information itself rather than enabling something on its own?
 
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Can you be more explicit about your question and perhaps to the particular words or sub-phrases you don't follow. I mean no disrespect but I'm lost as how to answer you.
Sure, I'll unpack that for you. :)

You're pointing out that the problem with comparing private behaviours is that they're private; we don't have direct access to them, so we can't directly quantify them. So when you ask, how can I know if a private behaviour of one individual is like a private behaviour of another individual, I need to know what you mean by that question.

If you mean, does it produce similar public behaviour, that's easy; I'll run some tests and see.

If you mean, does it produce similar patterns of neural activity, that's easy. I can put both subjects in FMRI scanners and see what's going on inside their heads.

If you mean, does it produce similar associations in the minds of the two subjects, that's easy. I'll just ask them. If one reports that the colour blue invokes feelings of serenity, and the other one feelings of panic, then clearly the experiences differ in that regard.

My point is, if you want me to tell you how I can know if the two experiences are similar, you have to tell me first what it would mean for them to be different.

Blue is a physical property. Looking at something blue is a physical process; so too is recalling a memory related to the colour. The very experience of blue is a physical process. So any question of similarity or difference can be reduced to objective physical concepts, regardless of the fact that we're discussing private behaviours.

It's just that the human brain is the third* most complex device known, so while this is possible in principle, it's not at all easy in practice.

The broader point I'm trying to make is twofold. First, it's perfectly obvious that consciousness comes from brains (working within their environment, if you're a behaviourist) and no mystical magical additional substance is required to explain our observations, that further, there is simply no room for any mystical magical additional substance. Neurophysiology and neurochemistry show us that messing with the brain systematically messes with the mind such that dualism and consciousness idealism have no gaps left to be god of.

Observation tells us that minds is what brain does. But it doesn't give us a philosophical underpinning of how this can happen, how a mere meat machine can produce something as abstract as subjective experience. That's where Dennett and Hofstadter's self-referential information processing comes in - the strange loops that gave that book its title. This is my second point, that self-reference gives information processing systems access to a qualitatively different set of behaviours that cannot even be simulated by a system without self-reference, and that the set behaviours arising from self-reference maps to the set of behaviours we label consciousness.

Since you've read Hofstadter, this will already make sense to you. Certain others here refuse to allow one or the other (or both) of these facts, though never do we see a coherent reason for their objection (or at least, never a coherent reason that isn't factually false).

The argument has been going round and round for years. Most of the people arguing contrary to me have me on ignore by this point, because I have no truck with the nonsense they're peddling and tell them so. I don't consider it a waste of time, though, because I'm not the only one arguing on the side of reality, and everyone brings their own field of expertise to the table, so we can all learn from it.

And every so often, someone gets it, and changes their mind.

* Or maybe fifth, depending on how you grade complexity, or even lower depending on how specific you want to be.
 
Let me try to concretize things a bit. Have you studied Zuse, Fredkin, or Wolfram ideas and simulations that provide insight as to how cellular automata in computing space could enable math and information to yield what you consider to be reality or an illusion thereof? Do any other these ideas resonate with you or map to yours? Could they provide the plausible mechanism for your ideas? If so, can you provide a plausible mechanism by which 0/infinity works to initiate that framework? Could it be, rather, that it acts through the nature of information itself rather than enabling something on its own?
Or read Greg Egan's Schild's Ladder for a fascinating fictional treatment. :)
 

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