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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel
- Thread starter Skeptic Ginger
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From True Justice For Meredith Kercher:
"2) Judge Micheli explains that blood evidence proves that Meredith was wearing her bra when she was killed. Nor is it just the blood on her bra which demonstrates this. It’s also where the blood isn’t on her body. He says that Meredith was wearing her bra normally when she laid in the position in which she died, and she was still wearing it for quite some time after she was dead. Her bra strap marks and the position of her shoulder are imprinted in the pool of blood in that position. Meredith’s shoulder also shows the signs that she lay in that position for quite some time.
He asks the question: Who came back, cut off Meredith’s bra and moved her body some time later? It wasn’t Rudy Guede. He went home, cleaned himself up and went out on the town with his friends. Judge Micheli reasons in his report that it could only have been done by someone who knew about Meredith’s death and had an interest in arranging the scene in Meredith’s room. Seemingly who else but Amanda Knox?
She was apparently the only person in Perugia that night who could gain entry to the cottage. And the clasp which was cut with a knife when Meredith’s bra was removed was found on November 2nd when Meredith’s body was moved by the investigators. It was right under the pillow which was placed under Meredith when she was moved by someone from the position in which she died. On that clasp and its inch of fabric is the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Micheli reasons in his report that Raffaele and Amanda seemed to have returned to the cottage some time after Meredith was dead, cut off her bra, moved her body, and staged the scene in Meredith’s room."
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index..._judge_micheli_rejected_the_lone_wolf_theory/
"2) Judge Micheli explains that blood evidence proves that Meredith was wearing her bra when she was killed. Nor is it just the blood on her bra which demonstrates this. It’s also where the blood isn’t on her body. He says that Meredith was wearing her bra normally when she laid in the position in which she died, and she was still wearing it for quite some time after she was dead. Her bra strap marks and the position of her shoulder are imprinted in the pool of blood in that position. Meredith’s shoulder also shows the signs that she lay in that position for quite some time.
He asks the question: Who came back, cut off Meredith’s bra and moved her body some time later? It wasn’t Rudy Guede. He went home, cleaned himself up and went out on the town with his friends. Judge Micheli reasons in his report that it could only have been done by someone who knew about Meredith’s death and had an interest in arranging the scene in Meredith’s room. Seemingly who else but Amanda Knox?
She was apparently the only person in Perugia that night who could gain entry to the cottage. And the clasp which was cut with a knife when Meredith’s bra was removed was found on November 2nd when Meredith’s body was moved by the investigators. It was right under the pillow which was placed under Meredith when she was moved by someone from the position in which she died. On that clasp and its inch of fabric is the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Micheli reasons in his report that Raffaele and Amanda seemed to have returned to the cottage some time after Meredith was dead, cut off her bra, moved her body, and staged the scene in Meredith’s room."
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index..._judge_micheli_rejected_the_lone_wolf_theory/
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Really? I thought it was only Sollecito's DNA that was identified?
stilicho
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I think you need to go back to the PMF and see if you can locate and translate the 250 pages of documentation supplied to the defence teams in July 2009. Right now you're making assertions and challenges based on less information than I have (which is admittedly rather little). I agree with you that I thought it was only RS who was placed in Meredith's bedroom from the DNA evidence.
We are continuing to go over old ground without having access to any of the primary sources that the defence experts had. Are you going to try to get them?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
I don't speak Italian so it would be pointless. I'll just have to continue to rely on secondary sources, like most everybody else here.
Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion as to whether any of "Darkness Descending", The Murder of Meredith Kercher, or Death in Perugia is likely to be worth reading?
Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion as to whether any of "Darkness Descending", The Murder of Meredith Kercher, or Death in Perugia is likely to be worth reading?
Matthew, I don't know about the books, but if you haven't seen it, I've found the Lies Our Mother Told Us blog very worthwhile. There's a good deal of interesting opinion & analysis as well as some strong narratives.
Yes, I can find a point or two with which other sources disagree, but I'm starting to realize that that's the case with virtually every website.
As with the TJMK site, the comments are accessible but hidden, which I find a virtue; there are no distractions from what the blog author is saying.
Yes, I can find a point or two with which other sources disagree, but I'm starting to realize that that's the case with virtually every website.
As with the TJMK site, the comments are accessible but hidden, which I find a virtue; there are no distractions from what the blog author is saying.
If you know where such sources are, please provide them. Demanding that I find them when you can't is rather pointless and arrogant.
According to the letter from DNA expert Elizabeth A Johnson, Y-STR testing was used to match RS to the bra clasp. This test can't match a female suspect, because she doesn't have a Y chromosome.
Fulcanelli
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She did not however say that it was the only test she performed. Obviously it wasn't, since the levels of Meredith's DNA on the clasp has been demonstrated, the trace partial profiles of two unidentified females (probably Filomena and Laura) and of course, a low profile reading for Amanda Knox. It was actually Raffaele's experts that stated they could identify Amanda's profile on the clasp.
Cite?
Fulcanelli
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Do you want fries with that?
Or, are you ever going to bother doing some research of your own instead of demanding everyone run around after you while you just sit there and postulate?
Fulcanelli
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"Lawyers for Mr Sollecito have told the judge that, according to a forensic expert called by the defence, Ms Knox's DNA is on Ms Kercher's bloodied bra-strap as well as that of Mr Sollecito and Rudy Guede*.
Professor Francesco Vinci, the forensic scientist, said the DNA traces were "too contaminated" to be useable as evidence, but showed the presence of "at least three people".
The admission appears to support the prosecution case that all three were present at the scene of the crime."
THE TIMES
*The statement in the report that Guede's DNA was on the clasp is in error, likely to have been confused with the fact that his DNA is on the main body of the bra. On the clasp: Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito and partial trace profiles of: Amanda Knox + 2 unidentified females (probably Laura and Filomena)
Professor Francesco Vinci, the forensic scientist, said the DNA traces were "too contaminated" to be useable as evidence, but showed the presence of "at least three people".
The admission appears to support the prosecution case that all three were present at the scene of the crime."
THE TIMES
*The statement in the report that Guede's DNA was on the clasp is in error, likely to have been confused with the fact that his DNA is on the main body of the bra. On the clasp: Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito and partial trace profiles of: Amanda Knox + 2 unidentified females (probably Laura and Filomena)
richardm
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Many bleaches that you buy for household use (Domestos, say) are only 5% Sodium Hypochlorite though; half that strength. And how would that be strength be further reduced by putting it on a cloth to wipe over a knife (or anything), or by mixing it with water in a bucket as you might normally think to use bleach to clean surfaces, or by any of the other things that you might do to clean things if you weren't working at the Laboratory of Virology and Parasitology, Lindsley F. Kimball Research Institute, methodically trying to find a way to destroy DNA, but rather were flapping like a wet hen trying to get the place cleaned up before you get caught?
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Fulcanelli
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Dr Stefanoni's testimony:
"Under a sometimes-heated cross interrogation by the defense lawyers for both Knox and Sollecito, Stefanoni defended her methods and denied the crime scene had been contaminated.
Sollecito would have had to rub the bra hook forcefully for DNA from his skin cells to be on it, she said. Dead skin cells floating around the room do not contain DNA and would not stick, she said."
ABC NEWS
Andrea Vogt:
"Over the course of six crime scene inspections, 228 pieces of evidence and 460 traces of genetic material were found. Stefanoni, who sat on the witness stand for 10 hours, presented slides and graphs describing the complicated science behind DNA analysis and defending her team's protocol.
Friday's key evidence focused on mixed genetic traces of Knox and Kercher found throughout the house. That's something, Knox's defense lawyers said, that was normal given that they lived together.
But mixed blood samples were found as well. Specifically, mixed blood of Knox and Kercher was found on the drain of the bidet, on a box of Q-tips sitting on the sink and the sink ledge.
A drop of Knox's blood was identified on the sink faucet. Kercher's blood was also found on the toilet lid and the bathroom light switch, on the part that would have been touched to turn on the lights. Elsewhere in the house, luminol-enhanced footprints were analyzed and found to be mixed genetic material of Knox and Kercher.
Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox."
SEATTLE PI
On the knife:
"The Italian news agency ANSA quoted Stefanoni as testifying that traces of Knox's genetic code were found in a small scratch on the knife's handle, and that the point in which the genetic material was found indicates that the knife "was used to pierce and not to cut."
After Stefanoni testified, Knox's lawyer told reporters outside the courtroom that the and that the defense was considering asking the court to order DNA testing by an outside expert."
Associated Press
PERUGIA MURDER FILE
See also this post here as a summary with links:
PERUGIA MURDER FILE
"Under a sometimes-heated cross interrogation by the defense lawyers for both Knox and Sollecito, Stefanoni defended her methods and denied the crime scene had been contaminated.
Sollecito would have had to rub the bra hook forcefully for DNA from his skin cells to be on it, she said. Dead skin cells floating around the room do not contain DNA and would not stick, she said."
ABC NEWS
Andrea Vogt:
"Over the course of six crime scene inspections, 228 pieces of evidence and 460 traces of genetic material were found. Stefanoni, who sat on the witness stand for 10 hours, presented slides and graphs describing the complicated science behind DNA analysis and defending her team's protocol.
Friday's key evidence focused on mixed genetic traces of Knox and Kercher found throughout the house. That's something, Knox's defense lawyers said, that was normal given that they lived together.
But mixed blood samples were found as well. Specifically, mixed blood of Knox and Kercher was found on the drain of the bidet, on a box of Q-tips sitting on the sink and the sink ledge.
A drop of Knox's blood was identified on the sink faucet. Kercher's blood was also found on the toilet lid and the bathroom light switch, on the part that would have been touched to turn on the lights. Elsewhere in the house, luminol-enhanced footprints were analyzed and found to be mixed genetic material of Knox and Kercher.
Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox."
SEATTLE PI
On the knife:
"The Italian news agency ANSA quoted Stefanoni as testifying that traces of Knox's genetic code were found in a small scratch on the knife's handle, and that the point in which the genetic material was found indicates that the knife "was used to pierce and not to cut."
After Stefanoni testified, Knox's lawyer told reporters outside the courtroom that the and that the defense was considering asking the court to order DNA testing by an outside expert."
Associated Press
PERUGIA MURDER FILE
See also this post here as a summary with links:
PERUGIA MURDER FILE
Chris_Halkides
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Bleach
Full strength commercial bleach is 5% sodium hypochlorite. The study in question diluted it tenfold, to 0.5%. That one could remove all blood but not all DNA with bleach is one of several improbabilities in the narrative offered by the prosecution.
Full strength commercial bleach is 5% sodium hypochlorite. The study in question diluted it tenfold, to 0.5%. That one could remove all blood but not all DNA with bleach is one of several improbabilities in the narrative offered by the prosecution.
Chris_Halkides
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Contamination
Stefanoni claimed that her lab had not had contamination in seven years (see upthread). Another prosecution waffle.
Stefanoni claimed that her lab had not had contamination in seven years (see upthread). Another prosecution waffle.
Chris_Halkides
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Still waiting for the DNA files
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...stigation.html
The Appeal, by BOB GRAHAM
QUOTE
The divide between the two countries was highlighted lastweek with an open letter from nine leading US DNA specialists questioning the validity of the only forensic evidence which implicates either Knox or Sollecito at the murder scene: DNA on a kitchen knife claimed to be the murder weapon and on a bra clasp ripped from Meredith.
Other forensic experts in several countries – including two from Britain – have started to study the DNA results but have delayed giving a verdict until they have received precise details on the methodology used by their Italian counterparts.
The failure of the prosecution to provide these details to Knox and Sollecito’s defence teams is one of their central complaints.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...stigation.html
The Appeal, by BOB GRAHAM
QUOTE
The divide between the two countries was highlighted lastweek with an open letter from nine leading US DNA specialists questioning the validity of the only forensic evidence which implicates either Knox or Sollecito at the murder scene: DNA on a kitchen knife claimed to be the murder weapon and on a bra clasp ripped from Meredith.
Other forensic experts in several countries – including two from Britain – have started to study the DNA results but have delayed giving a verdict until they have received precise details on the methodology used by their Italian counterparts.
The failure of the prosecution to provide these details to Knox and Sollecito’s defence teams is one of their central complaints.
richardm
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I see -for some reason I assumed that Clorox was some vulgar name for Sodium Hypochlorite rather than a brand name.
Even so, I'm not quite clear why a fairly-but-not-quite-thorough clean should not wipe off visible blood but not have time to destroy invisible DNA. But this question has possibly already been asked and answered, and I don't really have time to go through the whole thread with enough care to do it justice
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So far as I have been able to discover it was Vinci who said he had found Knox's DNA on the bra clasp. There maybe other reports of this but I haven't come across them yet. Vinci is the forensic expert who was working for Sollecito. He seems to have walked off the case before the trial but I cannot see anywhere why he did so.
ETA: I see this has already been explained. I am too slow
ETA: I see this has already been explained. I am too slow
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Fulcanelli
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What, as opposed to defence waffle?
Claims of contamination from the defence is something they can't back up because they cannot demonstrate any route for said contamination. Ergo 'waffle'.
In contrast, 'no incidents of contamination for 7 years' sounds like a cold hard fact to me. There either has been or there hasn't and if there hasn't...then that's a 'fact'.
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