UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Wow…this Tehran case has sent you all barking mad…

GeeMack is consistent at least in his bullyboy abuse. Abuse is of course the lowest form of “argument”, just short of physical violence, and THAT is the standard JREF judges itself by?


JREF doesn't judge itself by the standards of any of the posters to this forum. Why would you think it did?

I assume you've reported all this abuse?


Beachnut seems positively psychotic, confusing sources (the shape shifting descriptions were from Pirouzi, not the pilots) and confusing F-4 actions with UFO actions (the UFO “jumped” locations, NOT the F-4s!), contending that we do NOT know how high weather balloons travel (remember the White Sands And Rogue River sources, discussion and analysis), claiming party balloons can reach 27000 feet (!), claiming that the UFO debunkers of this forum are delusional because “UFOs only exist in our minds”, asserting that my source is “?Rense.com”, asking if the Tehran event occurred at NIGHT (OMG!), …as I say, psychotic (my sources have clearly been placed on the record MORE than once, as has much of the evidence pertinent to beachnut’s assertions, so much so that any reasonable person could not have failed to understand the substantive details of the cases presented, so for him to get all this SO wrong, a reasonable conclusion is then psychosis) …again, this is the standard of JREF?


Nup. We speak for ourselves, as you attempt to do.


We have Jocce stating he did not “claim” to know anything about alien technology or motivations, yet he clearly stated “We know that russians and americans can fly and fire missiles. Now, all you need to do is to prove that the aliens have the technology necessary to do that. It would also be great if you could show that alien bases were located within flying distance of Teheran at the time of the incident. Which means of course that he assumes aliens have “missiles” and utilise “missile” technology and that aliens need (or have) bases …all of which IS claiming to “know” alien technology and/or motivations and is therefore utter unfounded nonsense.

Thus standard by which JREF can be judged (so far) is abusive, psychotic and nonsensical. Who else have we got?


More abuse, most likely, but can you see who's doing it? Hint: The bits highlighted in red are a cloo.


Oh yes… RoboTimbo… claiming “oil well fires” can chase jets when a reference is made to Rogue River …claiming that there are other possibilities for Rogue River, yet NEVER mentioning just WHAT they might be… totally ignoring a request for information on a topic HE raised (just what DOES constitute “extraordinary evidence” RoboTimbo?) …seemingly unable to come to terms with the “quote” facility of this forum… contending that my unwise (in the context of this forum) claim to be a scientist should be a matter of ridicule… this is the standard for JREF?


No. Why do you keep asking the same silly question?


We have Akhenaten posting “Photo-shopped” images in place of substantive argument (is he trying to tell us he is gay?


No. If that was my aim, I'd do this:

Akhenaten is gay.


No need to create straw Pharaohs, now is there? I'll bet you were hoping for a bite. Can't be done. mate.


He certainly seems obsessed with something called “Gay Rodeo” - is this an event somewhere he is trying to promote?


It is indeed. I have a Gay Rodeo clown, a blimp and everything.


I thought that advertising corporate or personal events were banned in this forum! Moderators?)


I cannot begin to imagine the lulz that would result from you reporting this.


. . . and we have Access denied, who obviously knows about my post of my principal sources (he quotes the relevant post), then acting as if he knows NOTHING about those sources and seems fixated on Mooy’s memorandum as if it is the ONLY relevant evidence in the case.

<snip>


I'm bored with this now. Go get some evidence for us to discuss, will ya?
 
This is what was stated.

Me:In the interview you cite, Pirouzi still states the jet was near the Afghan border (150 miles away heading back after heading there, which is not over Teheran as the general claimed).

You:I love the way you continue to rely on the second-hand accounts and PREFER those OVER the first hand accounts. Your hypocrisy in this matter knows no bounds Astrophotographer. MORE..you again revert to historical revisionism. Pirouzi stated NO such thing!


Apparently, we are quibbling over the vicinity of the Afghan border and the 150 miles. His reference was he was heading towards the Afghan border and then turned around and after getting within 150 miles of Teheran, the UFO "reappeared". Still this is all in contradiction with what the General stated when he discussed that the UFO was only in the vicnity of Teheran. If you want to say 150 miles is close to Teheran, then you are willing to spin the story anyway you desire.
Actually I think you will find your ORIGINAL claim was:

“Pirouzi has presented information that is in conflict with Mooy's report (he states they saw a UFO over the F-4 as it attempted to land but Mooy states the tower did not see the UFO reported by the crew at this moment) and the interview with the general (He states they went to the Afghan border and the general says that did not happen).” (#3565, p.90)

In other words you contend that Pirouzi stated that “they went to the Afghan border”. I refuted that claim and then you posted the “Enquirer as a source (#3617, p.91). I questioned your reliance on the “Enquirer” (especially since you and others have ridiculed THAT as a source before). Then you came back with a reference to the MUFON case files and the p.63 reference, changing your story to now claim “Pirouzi still states the jet was near the Afghan border (150 miles away…” (#3646, p. 92)

Now “near the Afghan border” is NOT “went to the Afghan border”! See how you “change your claims? This is exactly what I am talking about in your methodology of argument here Astrophotographer… disingenuous at the very least!

You also asked “What are you referencing when you talk about the first person interview by Pirouzi?” and I replied: ”I am referencing the John Checkley interview which is dated 1/25/77 and begins on p. 85 (of 113). THIS is Pirouzi’s first hand account…” (#3652, P. 92)

Then came the little exchange you cite above… or NO it did not…you are quoting things OUT of ORDER and in the WRONG context!

I stated also stated in that last post (#3652):
I love the way you continue to rely on the second-hand accounts and PREFER those OVER the first hand accounts. Your hypocrisy in this matter knows no bounds Astrophotographer. MORE..you again revert to historical revisionism. Pirouzi stated NO such thing!.

To which YOU replied (#3661, p. 92):

”Then read again the interview you prefer (p.90):

I ordered him to return towards the Teheran base. He turned back. By this time he was heading towards the border with Afghanistan. When he was about 150 miles away, still coming back towards me, the object suddenly appeared over Teheran.


THIS is what I mean by “historical revisionism! You have been caught at it AGAIN!

NOW you claim:

Apparently, we are quibbling over the vicinity of the Afghan border and the 150 miles. His reference was he was heading towards the Afghan border and then turned around and after getting within 150 miles of Teheran, the UFO "reappeared". Still this is all in contradiction with what the General stated when he discussed that the UFO was only in the vicnity of Teheran. If you want to say 150 miles is close to Teheran, then you are willing to spin the story anyway you desire.”

So… 150 miles is NOT in the vicinity of Tehran? When we are talking F-4s and speeds of (up to and above) Mach 2 then I think 150 miles IS most definitely in the vicinity! (and before you go off in a tizzy about “Mach 2 and above” it was the GENERAL(a second hand source by the way) who believed that these were the type of speeds reached and it was HE who made the “vicinity if Tehran” claim – so at the speeds the General is contemplating, “150 miles” IS in the vicinity).

And in the very last sentence you AGAIN “spin” the story, changing your own claims… “close to” in the context we are talking about is NOT the same as stating “in the vicinity” … ughhh, you really ARE incorrigible!

Blah...Blah...Blah... This from a person who has declared some accounts of the story as invalid and only the one's he chooses to quote as the valid accounts. What is apparent is that there are various versions of the event and declaring one more accurate than another is just a desire to pick and choose which evidence to believe.
I at least have been entirely CONSISTANT in my claims. I have always contended that we should rely on FIRST hand sources over ANY other source… I think you will find my first statement to that effect within the first couple of pages of this thread… thus I do NOT “pick and choose” as you contend (indeed my self imposed limitation to this effect is… well… limiting in what I can legitimately argue!), I consistently refer to FIRST hand sources for my primary information!

People will change their histories to avoid being part of this "purge". There is plenty of reason to question if Jafari was a Major at the time or even the squadron commander as claimed.
Ughh…your merely stating so does NOT make it so… repeat it as many times as you like… it still does NOT make it either true or legitimate as a reason to question Jafari’s legitimacy.

Puddle duck and others have provided links about the IIAF. I did not figure I would have to spoon feed a "pseudoscientist" who does not do his homework. Follow their links and actually read them for once. Apparently, you are not interested in trying to learn anything but what you have been spoonfed by the UFO websites. What squadron was Jafari the squadron commander for? Maybe you can look that one up and prove your case.
I am not asking anything of you except that when YOU make a claim YOU provide the correct reference citation to support YOUR claims. You are CLEARLY unwilling to do this. And we now know why… your sources are bunk (see my post # 3689 for the evidence of this claim)!

Exactly who are these "sources"? "Henry" and "Bob" is just as good as "TR1" and "TR2". No credentials are presented and no last names.Do you really consider this any more reliable?
Yes. “Henry” and “Bob” directly examined and assessed the F-4s avionics! TR-1 and TR-2 (by their own admission) never even had access to so much as the paperwork! TR-2 even cites ”information” from someone who told HIM about the situation… and THAT someone was nowhere NEAR the F-4s either! So YES indeed I DO consider Dr Maccabee’s sources more reliable than Klass’.

As I stated they were anonymous and I already quoted these sections. However, it is no different than the claims of "Henry" and "Bob". Their stories are absolutely no more valid since we don't know who they are. You give credence to their stories but reject Klass' sources simply because they tell the story you want to hear. Talk about hypocrisy. Your argument fails and then you go into hysterics hurling insults. Good for you.
I reject Klass’ in preference to Maccabbe because Maccabee has FIRST HAND SOURCES – Klass on the other hand merely has SECOND and THIRD HAND sources. I simply prefer FIRST hand over SECOND and THIRD any day!

Exactly what "facts' have been presented by "Henry" and "Bob" that can be verified? What about Pirouzi, who seems to be quoted by several people telling different stories? How can these be 'facts" if they do not agree? Oh, that is right, you reject those stories that indicate conflicting information. How scientific of you Dr. Pseudoscience.
If you question Henry and Bob’s “facts” then surely you can see that the “facts” presented by TR-1 and TR-2 are EVEN MORE questionable…yet you PREFER the MOST questionable information over the LEAST? Who is being “pseudoscientific now AstroP? You are demonstrably hypocritical.

But you have rejected their opinions as flawed and unreliable because they say things you do not want to believe. How reliable are "Henry" and "Bob"? How can we verify their story? Both of these gentlemen were not allowed to inspect the aircraft until days after the event. Anything could have been done to the aircraft between landing and this inspection. Their accounts are just as invalid as the accounts given to Klass. They are not "facts". Show me the documentation supporting the inspections performed by "Bob" and "Henry" and then we can talk about "facts". Show me the maintenance histories of the aircraft so we can establish facts. Oh that is right. Nobody has those anymore or is it possible Klass' source was correct.
I do not “reject” TR-1 and TR-2. I merely point out that as second and third hand witnesses, I PREFER the first hand information from Bob and Henry… I would have thought that a skeptic (such as yourself) would have thought that prudent also…unless you are no longer skeptical…

And “…anything could have been done between landing and inspection”? Whooo boy! Do you read what you have written? Even TR-1 claimed that the second F-4 was “quarantined”! You now deny and refute information from your OWN sources! THAT is utterly hypocritical!

You really ARE a “piece of work” AstroP! You “cherry pick” information, even when it refutes your own sources and I have PROVED that you DO this!

Thus when you state:
As I stated, you have cherry picked only those parts of the story that you choose to believe. ANYTHING that contradicts that belief is immediately rejected as flawed, faulty, or outright lies. Then you call me a hypocrit. Look in the mirror Dr. Pseudoscience. If this is your scientifc methodology, then your "degree" is completely worthless.
Then we can see that the statement ACTUALLY applies to YOU! It is as if your guilty conscience is making you write the words, but your ego just cannot bring itself to appropriately designate the subject.

If you can point to ANYWHERE in my posts where I have done the things you claim, then you might have a point… but of course you cannot, I have been consistent throughout. On the other hand I have been providing example after example where YOU have been doing ALL those things! Ha! You have been proved a hypocrite (at the very least)!
 
You are just plain ridiculous. Puddle duck provided the source previously. Why do I have to keep doing your homework for you? Why do you choose to ignore the links and information provided by others? Why do you choose to stick your head in the sand and then blame me for your ignorance? I would think somebody interested in examing FACTS about cases, would research the history of the IIAF and attempt to further his understanding of the subject. Since you did not go to the links before, why would you go now?

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Country-By-Country/iranian_f_4_phantom_losses.htm

and

http://www.iiaf.net/history/iiaf.html

But the “ejection” website does NOT name the source for its “2nd Lt.” assignation for Jafari. Could it be that the website creator has been reading the same newspaper you have?

This again merely shows up your own hypocrisy. You refer to a website of questionable validity (even the person who created the site appeals for help in verifying any of the information contained on it and he ALSO notes one or two instances where he has had already been corrected…) so to take THIS site as reliable evidence, coming from a so called skeptical member of JREF beggars belief!

Besides... when WAS this information added to the site...? And why even include the event on a "Losses and Ejections" page? Even the website designer seems a bit hesitant ...even apologetic... in including the event on his page... It all smells a bit fishy oh master of the red herring!
 
So, where are we up to...

We have Rogue River where reliable witnesses described a UFO. And I claimed that as evidence that UFOs exist. To support that case (if people questioned "reliable")
We have the White Sands case, where a group of military experts set out to film and triangulate UFOs and they achieved their goal! I entered this case as further evidence that UFOs exist. Then I embarked upon the (perhaps more difficult task) of showing that not only did UFOs exist, but that "aliens" existed also. To do this I entered onto the record the Tehran case. Here we have expert military witnesses (including radar) describing an object performing extraordinary maneuvers (perhaps this is the "extraordinary evidence" Sagan refers to..?), seemingly under intelligent control. I entered this case because the "maneuvers" indicated something beyond human technological capacity AND given that fact, the intelligent control suggested "alien". I then entered the Father Gill case onto the record because it had actual "beings" observed and testified to. Here then is evidence for "aliens". Now we are still "stuck" in Tehran ...but I am sure Father Gill will get a run soon :)
 
So, where are we up to...

We have Rogue River where reliable witnesses described a UFO. And I claimed that as evidence that UFOs exist. To support that case (if people questioned "reliable")
We have the White Sands case, where a group of military experts set out to film and triangulate UFOs and they achieved their goal! I entered this case as further evidence that UFOs exist. Then I embarked upon the (perhaps more difficult task) of showing that not only did UFOs exist, but that "aliens" existed also. To do this I entered onto the record the Tehran case. Here we have expert military witnesses (including radar) describing an object performing extraordinary maneuvers (perhaps this is the "extraordinary evidence" Sagan refers to..?), seemingly under intelligent control. I entered this case because the "maneuvers" indicated something beyond human technological capacity AND given that fact, the intelligent control suggested "alien". I then entered the Father Gill case onto the record because it had actual "beings" observed and testified to. Here then is evidence for "aliens". Now we are still "stuck" in Tehran ...but I am sure Father Gill will get a run soon :)

So why do you continue to refuse to enter Campeche "onto the record"? Why do you get so angry every time it is brought up? Everyone else knows why. Why is it that you can't connect the dots?
I don't think you could even be honest with yourself at this point.
That's from clear back on page 11. Nothing has changed since then. You still have not met the burden of proof to prove aliens exist and you still can't be honest with yourself.
 
So. given that's where you think we're up to, how many people do you believe you've convinced?

I don't need to "convince" anyone. That is not my aim. My goal, apart from presenting evidence that UFOs and "aliens" exist, is to get people thinking and to try and get them to apply a little skepticism to their own belief systems.

On the topic of UFOs (in particular) it seems that members of the JREF are not skeptical thinkers at all, rather they blindly accept the "handed down" folk wisdom of a handful of debunker "gurus" without ever having critically examined the evidence and without ever exploring whether the "gurus" have presented any scientific, unbiased analysis of their own, or are merely making "pronouncements" to their flock of "true believers".

Patently UFOs exist. There are simply too many sightings to dismiss them out of hand. So what are we then to make of all these sightings? Certainly some will be misidentified mundane, natural or technological, events. However the largest truly scientific study of its kind - the Battelle Study (under the auspices of Project Blue Book) found at least 1 in 5 reported UFO sightings to be truly inexplicable in terms of any known mundane event (http://www.ufocasebook.com/specialreport14.pdf).

UFO debunkers claim that according to the probabilities, the chance that any single UFO sighting being a misinterpreted mundane event will be high. That may be so, but at the same time, the chances of any single event being truly inexplicable in terms of mundane events is significant.

We must therefore examine individual cases to see if we can place them into either category. I have simply presented some cases that I contend fall into the "inexplicable in terms of mundane events" category.

The Rogue River incident for example. Here witnesses describe an object that IS truly inexplicable in terms of a mundane event. The UFO debunkers have "latched" onto "blimp" as an explanation , but the eyewitness descriptions of the object actually rule out a blimp (and remember, in that era, blimps were much more part of the public psyche and would have been instantly recognizable for what they were). Blimps do not fly at speeds of a jet plane. Blimps are noisy beasts, yet the UFO made no sound. Blimps are cigar shaped, yet the witnesses described a circular object (like a coin or pancake) and so on...all the witness descriptions positively rule out "blimp" as the explanation.

Because the eyewitness descriptions do not accord with descriptions of a blimp, the UFO debunkers are left with trying to impugn either the reliability of the witnesses or their powers of observation - to force a fit where none exists on the face of it. On the first point, the reliability of the witnesses is well established. They held responsible positions in a government military research establishment and never told their story to anyone outside their own security people - and all their character references stated that they were reliable, sober minded people.

On the second point, their powers of observation is harder to asses. They had and used binoculars. It was a clear day and the sun was at their backs. There were five witnesses involved and they all described ostensibly the same thing. There were discrepancies in their stories, but the discrepancies were exactly where one would expect them to be, in the estimates of size and distance in a clear blue sky. It is extremely difficult to make a case that all five witnesses were somehow "deluded" or otherwise mistaken in their general observations, particularly in the shape of the object.

What we are left with is a UFO. There is nothing else that we can conclude from the case. We certainly cannot conclude "aliens". Simply, the Rogue River incident was one of those "1 in 5" cases that are truly inexplicable in terms of a mundane event. In other words a UFO.

Then there was the White Sands case. Here a team of highly trained military observation and analytical experts set out to film and triangulate UFOs in an effort to discover what exactly it was that seemed to be overflying a supposedly secret military installation. In fact these experts managed to both film and triangulate the UFOs (more than one and on more than one occasion), but of course they could not explain exactly what it was they had filmed! There is no doubt they filmed something, but where the UFOs were located was inexplicable, high up on the edges of the atmosphere, and the military establishment were certain they had put nothing up there to explain the sightings ...so again UFOs, but this time there could be no question of manmade technological explanations and no question that the witnesses did not know how to observe and analyse those observations correctly. So another case of UFOs.

Then there is the Tehran incident. Here a UFO (or UFOs) exhibited extraordinary abilities. Shape shifting, splitting apart and rejoining, "jumping" locations, outmaneuvering two F-4 fighters, chasing at least one F-4, able to interfere with the F-4s avionics (to name just some of the more startling characteristics) ... in doing all these things the UFO seemed to display intelligent control in that it was able to respond to and affect its environment in an intelligent fashion. Again the witnesses were highly trained personell (tower operators and fighter pilots). All that seemed to suggest that not only was a UFO involved, but that it was under intelligent control! That in turn raises the possibility of "aliens". For if it is not human technology (and its antics rule human technology out) and it was intelligently controlled, then what other explanation do we have apart from (almost by definition) "aliens"? Note we cannot claim "ET" because we have no idea of the nature of the "aliens" we are dealing with here.

The next case up for discussion was/is the Father Gill case. We have of course touched on this case briefly and sporadically, but in this case we DO have observed beings who are in ostensible control of their "craft" and who also interact (albeit at a distance) with their observers! This case goes well beyond mere UFO and positively (rather than speculatively as was the case in the Tehran incident) enters the realm of the "alien".

All these cases together add up to some pretty compelling evidence that not only do UFOs exist, but "aliens" do also!

The astute reader will have noted by now that every time I mention "alien" I utilise quotation marks. This is because I want to distinguish "alien" from "ET". ET has the connotation of technological beings from other worlds and we simply do not know this to be the case. Of course the evidence strongly points in that direction, but as skeptics we must consider that we have no direct evidence for this. Other hypothetical scenarios are possible (local "aliens" for example, or inter/intra-dimensional beings to name just two other possibilities).

Of course I have more cases and evidence to present. But my approach has been a step-by-step one, each case building on the next, allowing time for discussion of each as we go. Currently the Tehran case is being "discussed...

(although I note that there no longer seems to be much argument about the actual evidence -but all things concerning the case must be discussed, it shows that people are at least thinking about the case - even if it IS only from the perspective of trying to support their own beliefs and not a from a truly skeptical scientific position, but my sincere hope is that as each case is discussed, it may slowly dawn on the UFO debunkers that their position actually NEEDS to become skeptical and scientific, rather that merely argumentative and based on unfounded belief systems. And above all it must become a rational debate, rather than some of the logical falaciousness that has so far been forthcoming)

...and so far no mundane explanation has been forthcoming. The Father Gill case is also interesting in its own right and there are other cases waiting in the wings that show other aspects of the UFO phenomena, butnthey will have to wait for now. So...on with the show! :D
 
I don't need to "convince" anyone. That is not my aim. My goal, apart from presenting evidence that UFOs and "aliens" exist, is to get people thinking and to try and get them to apply a little skepticism to their own belief systems.

Classic transference
:D
 
The Cempeche incident? You keep stating (RoboTimbo) that it is "relevant" to the Tehran case, but that does not make it so.

In that case the pilots of a military jet mistook oil well fires for UFOs. As I have explained before, under the circumstance this is entirely understandable. In that case there were operating well understood principles of perception that enabled OUR understanding of how such a mistake could occur.

In the Tehran case, we can find no similar conditions. Thus our understanding of the case cannot depend on those principles (that were operant in the Cempeche incident) for an answer. This alone makes the Tehran incident entirely different from the Cempeche incident. However, if there are other principles of perception that bear on the case then please delineate them so that we may assess their merits.

I have explained all this before. Obviously you ignored that explanation and have not address any of the points I raised in that explanation. Perhaps you will be able to do so now that the differences between the cases has been drawn to your attention once again?
 
Classic transference
:D

Perhaps then Marduk you could begin like this:

"I believe UFOs to be a bunch of woo." Then ask yourself... "What has led me to this belief - on what verified evidence are my beliefs based?" Then go from there...

I have been presenting the evidence for why I believe what I do about UFOs and "aliens" - you on the other hand have been content to sit back and ridicule my beliefs (with comments like you just made) and this allows you to happily fail examine your own belief systems. Yours is the easy way out Marduk. Won't you at least try to apply a little thoughtful skepticism and scientific method to your own belief system?
 
If you can point to ANYWHERE in my posts where I have done the things you claim, then you might have a point… but of course you cannot, I have been consistent throughout. On the other hand I have been providing example after example where YOU have been doing ALL those things! Ha! You have been proved a hypocrite (at the very least)!

I am going to stop this spiral right now because it is a waste of my valuable timel. I will let the forum decide on which is more accurate. You have not been objective in your analysis of this case. You simply accept what you desire to believe and reject anything that suggests more mundane explanations. If you want to call this science, then the degree you claim you have is not worth the paper it is printed upon.
 
But the “ejection” website does NOT name the source for its “2nd Lt.” assignation for Jafari. Could it be that the website creator has been reading the same newspaper you have?

This again merely shows up your own hypocrisy. You refer to a website of questionable validity (even the person who created the site appeals for help in verifying any of the information contained on it and he ALSO notes one or two instances where he has had already been corrected…) so to take THIS site as reliable evidence, coming from a so called skeptical member of JREF beggars belief!

Besides... when WAS this information added to the site...? And why even include the event on a "Losses and Ejections" page? Even the website designer seems a bit hesitant ...even apologetic... in including the event on his page... It all smells a bit fishy oh master of the red herring!


This is just as good as the anecodtal accounts provided by others. The author of the website obviously got his information from somewhere and he has apparently contacted various Iranian pilots over the years. It gives reason to question the story. All you have to do is demonstrate his information is false. Oh yeah, that requires you to actually do some homework. You would not want to do that and discover that it might be right.
 
This is just as good as the anecodtal accounts provided by others. The author of the website obviously got his information from somewhere and he has apparently contacted various Iranian pilots over the years. It gives reason to question the story. All you have to do is demonstrate his information is false. Oh yeah, that requires you to actually do some homework. You would not want to do that and discover that it might be right.

Well, actually the website you reference it is NOT as good as citing first hand sources. What has gotten into you AstroP? I cannot believe you are really advocating abandoning first hand sources in favour of second and third hand sources. This case seems to have forced you to abandon all your skeptical principles in order to maintain your position. THAT should tell you something, at least give you pause for thought...

(unless you had no principles to begin with... but I do not want to believe that to be the case).
 
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All these cases together add up to some pretty compelling evidence that not only do UFOs exist, but "aliens" do also!


Only if you accept arguments from incredulity and ignorance as compelling evidence. Skeptics understand those arguments to be fallacies and don't accept them as evidence. Because believers are ignorant, they won't understand the fallacies in their own arguments.
 
Perhaps then Marduk you could begin like this:

"I believe UFOs to be a bunch of woo." Then ask yourself... "What has led me to this belief - on what verified evidence are my beliefs based?" Then go from there...
there you go with the strawmen again, everyone here believes that U.F.O's exist, how many times do you need to be told the same thing again and again before you're able to comprehend simple premises ?
I have been presenting the evidence for why I believe what I do about UFOs and "aliens" - you on the other hand have been content to sit back and ridicule my beliefs (with comments like you just made) and this allows you to happily fail examine your own belief systems. Yours is the easy way out Marduk. Won't you at least try to apply a little thoughtful skepticism and scientific method to your own belief system?
you have been presenting evidence for your belief, you have yet to present any evidence for the existence of Aliens in any of these cases
that you don't understand that or figure out why thats wrong is what makes everything you say ridiculous
that you can't see that makes you a nut
its clear that you don't have the first clue what "skepticism and the scientific method" is
:D
I don't have any "belief systems", keep telling you that, they're not neccessary when there is plenty of evidence to contradict them. Your belief on a credibility scale is equivalent to christian creationsim, if it weren't for your belief you wouldn't have anything else. You don't have anything else which is why youre a monumental waste of space.
:D
 
Then there was the White Sands case. Here a team of highly trained military observation and analytical experts set out to film and triangulate UFOs in an effort to discover what exactly it was that seemed to be overflying a supposedly secret military installation. In fact these experts managed to both film and triangulate the UFOs (more than one and on more than one occasion), but of course they could not explain exactly what it was they had filmed! There is no doubt they filmed something, but where the UFOs were located was inexplicable, high up on the edges of the atmosphere, and the military establishment were certain they had put nothing up there to explain the sightings ...so again UFOs, but this time there could be no question of manmade technological explanations and no question that the witnesses did not know how to observe and analyse those observations correctly. So another case of UFOs.
Liar.

The simple fact is that there was only one triangulation, and we have no idea about its accuracy, because they forgot to mention it in the only report we have of the incident.
 
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