• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

How do you deal with the 'science is a religion' crap?

.
I'm afraid I'm not qualified enough to judge that. But to me it seems that Faraday was off the mark as you said. I might be wrong though, since I don't know enough about this.

Fair enough. Yet it doesn't take much more than a secondary school grounding in modern physics to know what atomics would be like today without an understanding of fields. Prior to Faraday (and his direct influence on greats such as Maxwell) atoms were nothing like they are today - assumed to act like solids and liquids do, with mysterious action at a distance being taken for granted.

Can I ask why you think he was off the mark?

Athon
 
.
I'm afraid I'm not qualified enough to judge that. But to me it seems that Faraday was off the mark as you said. I might be wrong though, since I don't know enough about this.

Faraday's development of the concept of fields was a great contribution to physics. He did great experimental work with magnetic and electric fields and made theoretical contributions to both as well as the concept of gravitational fields. His disdain for attempting to model the physical nature of the atom is what was off the mark, which is what I was referring to as the "context" of his comment. He was a strong opponent of the concept of atomism, which is what the quote by athon reflects. He actually had a disdain for attempts to model the atom. Taking historical quotes out of context to make an erroneous point is often a mistake made by zealots.
Here is an interesting timeline (ironically from a "secondary school") of the development of atomic theory (note the comment about Faraday): LINK
 
Last edited:
Can I ask why you think he was off the mark?
.
His disdain for attempting to model the physical nature of the atom is what was off the mark, which is what I was referring to as the "context" of his comment. He was a strong opponent of the concept of atomism, which is what the quote by athon reflects. He actually had a disdain for attempts to model the atom.
.
That's what I knew about Faraday's views on atomism. And that's why I said he was off the mark. Maybe I misunderstood athon's post somehow. I'd like him to elaborate a bit on what he previously said about Faraday and atomic theory.
 
.

.
That's what I knew about Faraday's views on atomism. And that's why I said he was off the mark. Maybe I misunderstood athon's post somehow. I'd like him to elaborate a bit on what he previously said about Faraday and atomic theory.

Interestingly, Faraday's concept that all we have is "the powers," of atoms has proven to be quite true. All we can ever hope to measure are the effects of atoms (actually, subatomic structures like electrons and quarks). The ultimate reality of matter itself remains a mystery.
However, his comment, "why then assume the existence of that of which we are ignorant," was the flaw in his thinking. Those who did "assume the existence..." ultimately discovered a rich structure: beginning with the the nucleus with its surrounding elecron field and ultimately to the theory of quarks. As we moved from the plumb pudding model, nuclear models, elecron fields, right up to current models researchers accomplished much by "assum(ing) the existence of that of which we are ignorant." Specifically, by hypothesizing stuff like quarks, we have created a model that "assume(s) the existence of that of which we are ignorant."
Like all great physicists, Faraday was not omniscient.
 
Last edited:
His disdain for attempting to model the physical nature of the atom is what was off the mark, which is what I was referring to as the "context" of his comment. He was a strong opponent of the concept of atomism, which is what the quote by athon reflects. He actually had a disdain for attempts to model the atom. http://atomictimeline.net/index.php

I honestly can't see where you get that from. His 'disdain', so to speak, was for the assumptions on the nature of the atom. He did not and could disagree that there were atoms, nor was he an opponent of the concept of atomism.

I'd sooner believe his own words (Experimental Researches in Electricity) than a website speculating it -

The power around the centres [referring to atoms] give these centres the properties of atoms of matter; and these powers again, when many centres by their conjoint forces are grouped into a mass, give to every part of that mass the properties of matter

Faraday questioned the blunt assumptions being floated about concerning atoms as Newtonian materials, such as solid bits of matter or electrical 'fluids'. He turned the focus from the atom to the fields around it, dismissing notions of mysterious action at a distance.

He never dismissed atoms per se, but rather saw them as the focus of fields, and believed they should only be given properties we can observe.

Athon
 
Frank A. J. L. James is Professor of the History of Science at the Royal Institution, London:

"Faraday was deeply opposed to atomism, especially the theory proposed by John Dalton, and indeed held a very antimaterialist view. It was clear to Faraday, however, that the law of definite proportions also required some sort of atomic theory . What Faraday proposed in the 1840s was that matter was perceived where lines of force met at a particular point in space."

Fortunately, Faraday's successors explored the nature of matter further and discovered a complexity that Faraday would have dismissed as merely the "assum(tions) of the existence of that of which we are ignorant."
 
Frank A. J. L. James is Professor of the History of Science at the Royal Institution, London:

"Faraday was deeply opposed to atomism, especially the theory proposed by John Dalton, and indeed held a very antimaterialist view. It was clear to Faraday, however, that the law of definite proportions also required some sort of atomic theory . What Faraday proposed in the 1840s was that matter was perceived where lines of force met at a particular point in space."

The wiggle room might be in the definition of 'atomism'. But to be clear, and as said here by Pro. James, Faraday wasn't opposed to the notion of finite points where one can identify certain properties, such as the meeting of force lines. He was opposed to the granting of those points unobserved properties.

Fortunately, Faraday's successors explored the nature of matter further and discovered a complexity that Faraday would have dismissed as merely the "assum(tions) of the existence of that of which we are ignorant."

This is your assertion, and I have no reason to agree without something to support it. Many such discoveries on atomics initially came out of the mathematics that resulted directly from his work (admittedly something he himself could not indulge in, given his non-mathematical approach; the irony is that it is unlikely that anybody would have gone down that path if not for his experimental focus).

You seem awfully obsessed by this one fragment of a sentence and I suspect you're reading more into it that than is supported by the greater context. Faraday was against scientists holding undue confidence in atomic properties that hadn't been observed. Electricity was being touted as a fluid, for instance, hence he felt obliged to point out that such assumptions were unwarranted and superfluous (the writing from which that statement was taken was inspired by his friend Ampere's conjectures on the fundamental nature of electricity). Occham's razor, pure and simple. Once observed, as an experientalist he'd have no problem with them at all.

In any case, can you point out where such assumptions of atoms being materialistic entities and not points of force necessarily furthered atomic theory post Faraday?

Athon
 
I have only skimmed this thread so if this is repeated I apologize. But if someone states that science is your religion say okay then religion is your science. If he doesn't have a problem with that then you shouldn't either. If he does just look at them and say "hmmm what did you say?" and then walk away.
 
Wrong: Science IS a religion

Anyone who has CRITICALLY studied science in depth knows this.

Obviously: you have never attempted to study science critically.

Anyone who has studied the HISTORY of Science knows that it is a religion.

Obviously you have never studied thehistory of Science....

The religion of Science is so filled with superstitions and falsities and fads and idiocies.... and myths: that there is no difference between a priest and a scientist.

How can you prove this?

Simple.

Ask any catholic priest to explain the Trinity to you... or God, or the immaculate conception... they will hem and haw, and give you some ******** and hope that yopu swallow it and go away and stop asking them difficult questions which they can't answer.

Ask any scientist to explain the true nature of gravity, or Time or Space or Energy... and they will hem and haw and give you some feeble ******** and hope you swallow it and go away and stop asking them difficult questions they can't answer...

A few honest priests or scientists will just flat out admit they don't know...

Wonderful! A priest doesn't really know what God is! then WHAT THE **** ARE THEY TRYING TO SELL YOU ON? idf they don't even know what it is they are selling?

Same goes for scientists: If Scientists don't know what GRAVITY is or LIGHT or TIME or ENERGY or SPACE.... then WHAT THE **** ARE THEY TRYING TO SELL YOU ON? If they don't KNOW what these things are? eh? oh! they are selling you ion the sacredness of IGNORANCE? As long as you DON'T KNOW anything... why then you are a REAL devout scientist! Honestly admitting that you don't know a ****ing thing about your own chosen field of knowlege????

And that is not a religion? That is EXACTLY what a religion IS and EXACTLY how it WORKS.

You have just been BRAINWASHED into thinking that your science religion is 'better' than other religions.
 
Something tells me you're not going to last around these parts, turak. I'd say 'welcome', but with this garbage as your first post, it would only be a polite formality. There are so many fallacies, unsupported assertions and emotional pleas in this single post, it's hardly worth deconstructing.

Hope the five minutes it took to write it provided you with hours of giddy pleasure. :)

Athon
 
Honestly admitting that you don't know a ****ing thing about your own chosen field of knowlege????

And that is not a religion? That is EXACTLY what a religion IS and EXACTLY how it WORKS.

You appear rather confused. That's actually the exact opposite of how religion works. A religion, in general, says "Yes, we know all the answers to everything. Listen to us and ignore everything anyone else says.". Science says "Here's some things we're reasonably sure about. No, we don't know everything yet, but we're working on it.".

Also, "science" is not a field of knowledge. A scientist admitting that they don't know the fundamental nature of time and space should not surprise you if that scientist is in fact a biologist. Of course, it shouldn't surprise you if they're a physicist either, but let's start with the simple stuff first.
 
The wiggle room might be in the definition of 'atomism'. But to be clear, and as said here by Pro. James, Faraday wasn't opposed to the notion of finite points where one can identify certain properties, such as the meeting of force lines. He was opposed to the granting of those points unobserved properties.

Obviously, the meeting of force lines was not a fruitful concept. When physicists imagine "unobserved properties," what are they doing? Are they not creating a model to be tested? For example, J. J. Thomson's plum pudding model, which was falsified in time, was a fruitful model in that it started the ball rolling towards our modern perspective. He seems to have been against attempts to model the atom. I don't know how else to interpret the comment, "why then assume the existence of that of which we are ignorant, which we cannot conceive, and for which there is no philosophical necessity."



This is your assertion, and I have no reason to agree without something to support it. Many such discoveries on atomics initially came out of the mathematics that resulted directly from his work (admittedly something he himself could not indulge in, given his non-mathematical approach; the irony is that it is unlikely that anybody would have gone down that path if not for his experimental focus).

He contributed a great deal, as you say. However, his position on atomism is quite clear and has been well documented by historians. His experimental work with electricity and magnetism and his concept of force fields was groundbreaking, but the resulting contribution to the development of our understanding of the atom seems to be an inadvertent result. Can you demonstrate otherwise?



You seem awfully obsessed by this one fragment of a sentence and I suspect you're reading more into it that than is supported by the greater context. Faraday was against scientists holding undue confidence in atomic properties that hadn't been observed. Electricity was being touted as a fluid, for instance, hence he felt obliged to point out that such assumptions were unwarranted and superfluous (the writing from which that statement was taken was inspired by his friend Ampere's conjectures on the fundamental nature of electricity). Occham's razor, pure and simple. Once observed, as an experientalist he'd have no problem with them at all.

He definitely was a hard-nosed experimentalist and his opposition to fanciful unsupported theories is legendary. However, as I said above, modeling testable theories is one way with which science advances. It certainly appears that he was a bit overly aggressive regarding attempts to model the atom.


In any case, can you point out where such assumptions of atoms being materialistic entities and not points of force necessarily furthered atomic theory post Faraday?

Is it not clear that Thomson's model followed by Rutherford's nuclear model is exactly were such assumptions bore fruit and ultimately lead to our current model?

Look, You and I will never know what was actually in Faraday's mind. His statements seem to be quite clear to me that he was opposed to the atomic theories of his day and he appears to disdain attempts at modeling the atom. Historians of science seem to agree with that interpretation.
This does not detract from his genius and great contributions to physics. Newton and Einstein also got lots of stuff wrong.
 
Look, You and I will never know what was actually in Faraday's mind. His statements seem to be quite clear to me that he was opposed to the atomic theories of his day and he appears to disdain attempts at modeling the atom. Historians of science seem to agree with that interpretation.

Some do and some don't. However, you're right in that we're arguing over something that is impossible to know for sure, and even then we're speculating something rather trivial. You're maintaining that Faraday was pretty set against the concepts of atoms. I simply cannot find reason to agree with that - he was hard set against people prematurely accepting qualities that hadn't been shown to exist. I agree that subsquent models of the atom developed thanks to the efforts of others, however I again can't see where that was incompatible with his philosophy. Mathematical conclusions and further observations obviously arose indicating that there were greater complexities at those atomic points. If it was purely mathematical, Faraday might have had a hard time accepting it. But the observations would have pleased him.

However, my original appreciation of his quote still stands. Speculations are fine (and I have a quote somewhere where Faraday states the same thing, that speculations can be as fanciful as possible however when they become unsupported assumptions, science is the worse for it), but when we make the mistake of believing they are more than that, that is where we move away from being scientific.

Athon
 
Obviously, the meeting of force lines was not a fruitful concept. When physicists imagine "unobserved properties," what are they doing?

Just to be clear, I think this is the core of our disagreement. Faraday had no issue with what people imagined might be true. As I said before, he was quite adamant that the imagination should be able to run free (or something like that...I couldn't be bothered looking up the exact quote at the moment). 'Assumption' was used in a more conclusive sense when he talked about theories of atoms, aimed at scientists who prematurely thought there was more there than had been observed.

You're free to quote other historians who have their own opinions on this, however I'd much rather believe a primary source - Faraday's own personal musings - than the second hand views of others.

Athon
 
athon:

In any case we agree that Faraday was a remarkable genius who made huge advances in our understanding of chemistry, electricity and magnetism. He provided the platform for Maxwell and others.
He accomplished remarkable things; when one considers his origins and education (within his era) he is even more amazing.
Regarding the OP, he had an interesting way of compartmentalizing religion and science.
 
However, my original appreciation of his quote still stands. Speculations are fine (and I have a quote somewhere where Faraday states the same thing, that speculations can be as fanciful as possible however when they become unsupported assumptions, science is the worse for it), but when we make the mistake of believing they are more than that, that is where we move away from being scientific.

Athon

OK, if we are taking about something like the assumptions of astrology or intelligent design. we are in agreement. However if you are including theories like dark energy, which is under constant observational investigation and mathematical analysis, we cannot agree. Science is quite open to the ultimate confirmation or rejection of this theory as the weight of evidence will dictate.

How about Wegener's theory of continental drift? Was that the product of "unsupported assumptions"? Virtually all of his contemporaries thought so.

"Scientists still do not appear to understand sufficiently that all earth sciences must contribute evidence toward unveiling the state of our planet in earlier times, and that the truth of the matter can only be reached by combing all this evidence. . . It is only by combing the information furnished by all the earth sciences that we can hope to determine 'truth' here, that is to say, to find the picture that sets out all the known facts in the best arrangement and that therefore has the highest degree of probability. Further, we have to be prepared always for the possibility that each new discovery, no matter what science furnishes it, may modify the conclusions we draw."______ Alfred Wegener

It took half a century and the discovery of plate tectonics for Wegener to be vindicated.
 
Last edited:
Seems to me that some naive folk do behave like science is a religion. Explain to them how it is not.


M.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom