Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

[ElMondoHummus]

Discussion on cross bracing split to here and molten steel to here.

One derail at a time please. I'm getting too old for this. Thanks.

Posted By: Gaspode

Did poor Gaspode gasplode over this?

 

[R.Mackey]

If I've counted correctly, that makes seven splits for this thread.

Why is it so hard to follow the rules? Or do the Truthers simply neglect to actually read it, including the title?

Anyway, I no longer care; I've given up keeping it on topic for weeks now. Reporting derails is sometimes an effective tactic for getting the more offensive trolls bounced, however, so do what you think is right.

 

[rwguinn]

And I and others have explained why that was not possible. And yet, you ignore it.

Im a little lazy right now to look for it, I would be more than happy to explain it again to you. Only if you promise to learn, or at least try. I don't mind helping you understand. I do it for a living.

Evidence suggests that the capability is non-existent...

 

[Seymour Butz]

I have said that I believe they were conned into thinking that WTC 7 was going to collapse and made what they thought was the only decision to make in not risking more lives fighting it's fires.

IOW, you believe that all these highly educated guys, with fire science and engineering degrees, were duped.

That these guys, that know FAAAAR more than you in this area, since their lives depend on it, were duped.

That all these guys with prolly several hundred years worth of fighting actual fires, and what it takes to string lines from the river, were duped into thinking it would be impossible.

And continue to this day to remain duped.

So, you're saying they weren't in on it, just morons, right?

By making this statement, we all know now just exacly who the real moron in this thread is, Tony....

 

[twinstead]

From what truthers say, they must believe that everybody else on Earth except them is either incompetent, stupid, or 'in on it'--kind of like how some religious cults think everybody is going to Hell but them. All I can think is that it's some kind of woo woo circuit breaker to rationalize why so many people disagree with them.

 

[RedIbis]

I have said that I believe they were conned into thinking that WTC 7 was going to collapse and made what they thought was the only decision to make in not risking more lives fighting it's fires.

Nowhere on this page or any others will you see me saying the FDNY was involved in anything nefarious.

I don't think "conned" is the right word here. If you study the ff testimonies a significant amount said that they heard from others on the street that the bldg was going to come down. Some even expressed surprise.

The actual number of FDNY that said they personally thought the bldg would collapse is very small. In fact, you can trace who specifically received word from the OEM that WTC 7 was due to collapse, and that might very well be the origin of such an unprecedented diagnosis.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think "conned" is the right word here. If you study the ff testimonies a significant amount said that they heard from others on the street that the bldg was going to come down. Some even expressed surprise.

The actual number of FDNY that said they personally thought the bldg would collapse is very small. In fact, you can trace who specifically received word from the OEM that WTC 7 was due to collapse, and that might very well be the origin of such an unprecedented diagnosis.

...none of which explains why not a single one of these same firefighters have expressed the slightest bit of suspicion about the "official explanation" for the collapse of WTC7 in the intervening 8+ years.

Got a theory for that, Red?

No?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[RedIbis]

...none of which explains why not a single one of these same firefighters have expressed the slightest bit of suspicion about the "official explanation" for the collapse of WTC7.

Is this really all you have left at this point? You realize that your post proves you implicitly agree with mine.

 

[triforcharity]

Red,

Me and a friend walked by 7WTC later in the afternoon 3-4 ish, looked at it, and said to each other that 7 would be next.

Do you realize that many firefighters that were there that day never even saw 7? Some, like myself, were working on the E side of West street, and never saw it.

 

[RedIbis]

Red,

Me and a friend walked by 7WTC later in the afternoon 3-4 ish, looked at it, and said to each other that 7 would be next.

Do you realize that many firefighters that were there that day never even saw 7? Some, like myself, were working on the E side of West street, and never saw it.

For some reason, some posters and the mods seem not to like it when I agressively question you on some of your claims.

This is strange on a skeptic's forum since it is a very unique thing to have a principal witness of the very event members have spent hundreds of thousands of posts in tens of thousands of threads on.

Otherwise, I would ask you a whole slew of questions to determine if what you claim is true or it's just another fabricated tale.

 

[funk de fino]

I don't think "conned" is the right word here. If you study the ff testimonies a significant amount said that they heard from others on the street that the bldg was going to come down. Some even expressed surprise.

The actual number of FDNY that said they personally thought the bldg would collapse is very small. In fact, you can trace who specifically received word from the OEM that WTC 7 was due to collapse, and that might very well be the origin of such an unprecedented diagnosis.

Mike Catalano (the building engineer) said it was going to collapse and said it would have done so without any damage, only the fire.

 

[funk de fino]

For some reason, some posters and the mods seem not to like it when I agressively question you on some of your claims.

This is strange on a skeptic's forum since it is a very unique thing to have a principal witness of the very event members have spent hundreds of thousands of posts in tens of thousands of threads on.

Otherwise, I would ask you a whole slew of questions to determine if what you claim is true or it's just another fabricated tale.

You have yet to prove that your lie, that he lied, was true.

 

[Justin39640]

.... and that might very well be the origin of such an unprecedented diagnosis.

Actually, the origin was probably the transit the FDNY was using to track the buildings movement.
You've been around long enough to know about that, stop being dishonest.

You have yet to prove that your lie, that he lied, was true.

Has Red proved anything ever?

ETA: darnit I forgot what thread this was...
I meant:
Great job on the show guys.

 

[johnny karate]

Is this really all you have left at this point?

That no firefighters who witnessed the collapse of WTC7 agree with you? No, it's not "all I have". But even if it was, it's still a pretty damn strong case for you being completely wrong.

You realize that your post proves you implicitly agree with mine.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of "granting the premise"? That you think I agree with you is particularly hilarious considering you're making this ludicrous assertion within the context of trying to pretend the FDNY agrees with you as well. It's like a delusion within a delusion.

Let me make this perfectly clear: Your hypothesis that the members of the FDNY who witnessed the collapse of WTC7 were "told" it was caused by fire and damage, when in reality it was a controlled demolition, is completely unsubtantiated and demeaning to the intelligence of professional firefighters.

But rather than challenge that claim directly and subject myself to an avalanche of cherry-picked, out-of-context quotes, I find it much simpler to point out you that not a single one of those firefighters have expressed the slightest doubts or suspicions about what they were supposedly "told", and ask you to offer an explanation.

Which you have consistently failed to do.

Gee, I wonder why.

 

[carlitos]

IOW, you believe that all these highly educated guys, with fire science and engineering degrees, were duped.

That these guys, that know FAAAAR more than you in this area, since their lives depend on it, were duped.

That all these guys with prolly several hundred years worth of fighting actual fires, and what it takes to string lines from the river, were duped into thinking it would be impossible.

And continue to this day to remain duped.

So, you're saying they weren't in on it, just morons, right?

By making this statement, we all know now just exacly who the real moron in this thread is, Tony....

Tony makes claims based on the fact that he's an engineer. He refuses to publish these claims in a peer-reviewed journal, so they are worthless.

Tony makes claims about political motives for 9/11 based on ignorance and fear. He refuses to publish the "evidence" for these claims anywhere at all, not even on this forum when asked repeatedly.

He's a crackpot, no more worth taking seriously than the truther trolls here. I hope Ryan doesn't waste time debating him again. It's pointless.

 

[A W Smith]

Otherwise, I would ask you a whole slew of questions to determine if what you claim is true or it's just another fabricated tale.

Is that all you got dirty lying bird? Witnesses that don't fit into your agenda driven conspiracy are all lying or making stuff up? Do you have that much contempt for the FDNY?

 

[alienentity]

The actual number of FDNY that said they personally thought the bldg would collapse is very small.

Oh really? Misleading much?

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/accountsofwtc7damage

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

Just a select sample of the 'few':
'They backed me off the rig because Seven was in dead jeopardy, so they backed everybody off and moved us to the rear end of Vesey Street. We just stood there for a half hour, 40 minutes, because Seven was in imminent collapse and finally did come down. –Firefighter Thomas Smith '

'We were very concerned with the collapse potential '

'We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing' Frank Fellini

'they wanted everybody away from 7 because 7 was definitely going to collapse, they don't know when, but it's definitely going to come down'
Firefighter Edward Kennedy

'Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse.' Chief Frank Cruthers


etc etc etc.... yes, just a mere 'few' people, and a 'few' isolated pockets of fire in the towers which could be knocked down by a couple of hoses....

If truthers could back up their theories without resorting to gross misrepresentation, distortions or outright false information, that would help the 9/11 truth cause. But they can't do that - Redibis can't, and neither can David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage.

It's a very obvious problem, for a very obvious reason: the evidence doesn't support the claims of 9/11 truth, so it has to be fabricated by those means.

 

[willhaven]

I don't think "conned" is the right word here. If you study the ff testimonies a significant amount said that they heard from others on the street that the bldg was going to come down. Some even expressed surprise.

The actual number of FDNY that said they personally thought the bldg would collapse is very small. In fact, you can trace who specifically received word from the OEM that WTC 7 was due to collapse, and that might very well be the origin of such an unprecedented diagnosis.

Surely the building burning for twice as long as its fireproofing was rated to withstand couldn't have been a sign that there might be structural issues.

 

[twinstead]

Frankly, I think red is spinning the firefighter's testimony to support his position. It is IMPERATIVE, in his god of the gaps arguments, that he poke holes in the firefighter's accounts and try to portray them as incompetent because being that they were right there that day, in the trenches physically watching those buildings that red and others insist were rigged with explosives, their testimony is compelling as hell.

 

[carlitos]

Has he actually asserted any position, anywhere? I just see the whole 'answering a question with a question thing' going back for like 2 years.