Cryptozoology

[Bitter Monk]

Nature Conservation unable to identify mysterious creatures

“At first we thought the footprints might belong to wild dogs, but there is such a large distinction like the size of the paws that we soon realised that the prints were of an animal we have never encountered,” said the official.

I'm wondering how big the size has to be before you can just rule out a really big dog. It also doesn't help that they imply that there are additional differences in the tracks but only list the size.

 

[Marduk]

Marduk, you made a joke right?

The paper is a call for elevating scientific standards. Eyewitness reports are not enough to establish the presence of rare or elusive species.

The paper is not a call to lower scientific standards I agree. Anecdotal evidence is not, nor ever has been regarded as scientific proof, thats not about to change

With each passing year, it seems as though the Ivory Billed Woodpecker really is extinct. That the witnesses were wrong even though they were professionals. It was all based on eyeballing and a short blurry video that is worse than the worst Bigfoot video. It seems to be true as we have no good evidence that the woodpecker is out there, or even was out there when the claim was made a few years ago. If true, the US government got fooled in a big and expensive way. Of course the citizens pay for everything anyway.

Irrelevant, the Ivory billed woodpecker has been proven to be a real animal, bigfoot has not.

Is there any lesson to be learned? Maybe not. Because (as with Bigfoot) now there is no way to prove that the bird really was extinct and that it was observer error. It's like the existence claim must stand as accurate until further notice. But what is the further notice if a negative (nonexistence) cannot be proved? Money is still being spent on the search to confirm the rediscovery. Dang!

did you completely misread the pdf or are we arguing at cross purposes here, I suggest you go back and read the conclusions, its actually arguing that anecdotal evidence should never be used to establish a suspected presence of any animal therefore saving cash on expeditions to find data to support anecdotal evidence. Bigfoot included, it actually ridicules bigfoots existence and compares it to the Loch Ness Monster. How did you miss that ?

 

[William Parcher]

The paper is a call to lower scientific standards, I don't see how you can claim otherwise. Anecdotal evidence is not, nor ever has been regarded as scientific proof, thats not about to change

You have completely misread the pdf, I suggest you go back and read the conclusions, its actually arguing for the opposite of what you think, that anecdotal evidence should never be used to establish a suspected presence of any animal therefore saving cash on expeditions to find data to support anecdotal evidence. Bigfoot included, it actually ridicules bigfoots existence and compares it to the Loch Ness Monster. How did you miss that ?

What? A lowering of standards would mean that almost any eyewitness claim is acted upon without establishing the facts. Look at the abstract...

Anecdotal occurrence data (unverifiable observations of organisms or their sign) and inconclusive physical data are often used to assess the current and historical ranges of rare or elusive species. However, the use of such data for species conservation can lead to large errors of omission and commission, which can influence the allocation of limited funds and the efficacy of subsequent conservation efforts. We present three examples of biological misunderstandings, all of them with significant conservation implications, that resulted from the acceptance of anecdotal observations as empirical evidence. To avoid such errors, we recommend that a priori standards constrain the acceptance of occurrence data, with more stringent standards applied to the data for rare species. Because data standards are likely to be taxon specific, professional societies should develop specific evidentiary standards to use when assessing occurrence data for their taxa of interest.

ETA: From the conclusion...

In all three of the case histories presented here, reliance on anecdotal occurrence data led to significant errors regarding the presence, population dynamics, and range of the species in question.

 

[Marduk]

What? A lowering of standards would mean that almost any eyewitness claim is acted upon without establishing the facts. Look at the abstract...

maybe you should have read my post after I'd edited it

started to respond then stepped out for a minute didn't you

 

[William Parcher]

I never left the chair. I quoted your post then looked for what I wanted in the paper. I do not understand where the paper asks for or suggests a lowering of scientific standards.

 

[Marduk]

I never left the chair. I quoted your post then looked for what I wanted in the paper. I do not understand where the paper asks for or suggests a lowering of scientific standards.

so it took you 7 minutes to write less than 20 words ?

go back and read what I wrote again please, you are misquoting me and apparently are saying the same thing that I am and that the paper is,
that anecdotal evidence should be ignored

 

[William Parcher]

Oh great. You went in and changed a number of things. I didn't see all of your edits. You made a 180 degree on this I see.

The paper is not a call to lower scientific standards I agree.

Ok. I guess we are in agreement.

 

[Marduk]

Oh great. You went in and changed a number of things. I didn't see all of your edits. You made a 180 degree on this I see.

nope, no u turn, just a brain fart with the word "not" which I corrected the second I read my post through, you posted 6 minutes after I'd changed it. You can see this from the listed edit time at the bottom of my post.

 

[William Parcher]

Here is what you wrote a few days ago.

sounds to me like another call for science to lower its standards of evidence
no deal, doesn't work like that
WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, so when I read just a while ago that you thought it was a call for lowering standards... I figured you were staying with that idea.

I'm completely done with you here. I think something is wrong and very strange about the way you are addressing me.

 

[Marduk]

I was making a joke about the ambiguity of the title of the paper, this was why I qualified my statement with "sounds to me"
sorry you missed that, this might help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_humour
http://www.zyworld.com/albionmagazineonline/features2.htm

 

[I Ratant]

I watched a dead Labrador Retriever which had been discarded out back in the desert. Over a period of about a week, it just got stinky, until some kids found it and played with it, and moved it to a more accessible location. It then disintegrated into mostly bones and skin in about 2 weeks, from animal predation.
There's mostly just the spine left with some of the skin now.
It's a fairly common situation, a period of weeks needed to reduce an animal to bones.

 

[William Parcher]

I'm wondering how big the size has to be before you can just rule out a really big dog. It also doesn't help that they imply that there are additional differences in the tracks but only list the size.

It doesn't make sense and it may not be a legitimate claim. IOW, the article could contain errors such as the "Nature Conservation" not actually being unable to identify any animal tracks. The location is Namibia. Here is a list of their mammals. They have the full gamut of big predators but not all may be present at this specific location. At first I thought Nature Conservation would be a non-profit organization, but now I think it's possibly a university department.

I saw references to witchcraft and that can be a big red flag. Any local naturalists, wildlife managers or zoologists would certainly take keen interest in any "cryptid". I'm not expecting any follow up story.

 

[Marduk]

It doesn't make sense and it may not be a legitimate claim. IOW, the article could contain errors such as the "Nature Conservation" not actually being unable to identify any animal tracks. The location is Namibia. Here is a list of their mammals. They have the full gamut of big predators but not all may be present at this specific location. At first I thought Nature Conservation would be a non-profit organization, but now I think it's possibly a university department.

I saw references to witchcraft and that can be a big red flag. Any local naturalists, wildlife managers or zoologists would certainly take keen interest in any "cryptid". I'm not expecting any follow up story.

this is amusing
here is a real news report describing the same event but not written by a reporter who believes in witchcraft

Oshana farmers complain about Etosha lions killing their cattle
Cattle owners in the Uuvudhiya Constituency of the Oshana Region are complaining about lions killing their cattle.
One of the farmers, Iipinge Shetunyenga, claimed that 20 cattle had been caught by lions last week. He told The Namibian that he had lost two head of cattle, while another farmer, Mweufunga Keendjele, lost 17 and a man identified only as Mbaimbai had lost a valuable bull. Shetunyenga said lions escaped from the Etosha National Park because of the poor state of the park's boundary fence.
"We farmers are very angry with the Government, especially the Veterinary Department, for not keeping away the wild animals, such as lions, hyenas and so on," Shetunyenga said.
He said the farmers might demand compensation from Government if the fence was not repaired soon.
According to Shetunyenga, the problem has been reported to the Uuvudhiya Constituency Councillor, Amutenya Ndaafa.
When approached by The Namibian, the Oshana State Veterinarian, Dr Joseph Kapapero, said no such problem had been reported to his office, but he would investigate the complaint.
He told The Namibian that he had lost two head of cattle, while another farmer, Mweufunga Keendjele, lost 17 and a man identified only as Mbaimbai had lost a valuable bull.Shetunyenga said lions escaped from the Etosha National Park because of the poor state of the park's boundary fence."We farmers are very angry with the Government, especially the Veterinary Department, for not keeping away the wild animals, such as lions, hyenas and so on," Shetunyenga said. He said the farmers might demand compensation from Government if the fence was not repaired soon.According to Shetunyenga, the problem has been reported to the Uuvudhiya Constituency Councillor, Amutenya Ndaafa.When approached by The Namibian, the Oshana State Veterinarian, Dr Joseph Kapapero, said no such problem had been reported to his office, but he would investigate the complaint.

http://www.namibian.com.na/index.php?id=28&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=41571&no_cache=1
Hehe, crypto-lions, only in Namibia

I would suggest that if the original claim you posted is true that the "Nature Conservation" was not able to identify any animal tracks, that they said this while looking at their feet and whistling nonchalantly, admitting that they were their lions would leave them liable for damages

 

[William Parcher]

Is that article from September 18, 2007?

 

[Marduk]

yup, if you google around you'll see that this problem has been going on since 1984
http://www.hellonam.com/nature-reserves/5268-historical-review-etosha-national-park.html

Futhermore it was recognised that these two objectives are equally important and are relianton on scientifically conducted research for their implemention. Whilst the objectives appear ethically unassaible in their approach to the conservation of Etosha,the Master plan never reached fruition because the management strageties set out were unattainable.For example the plan stated that in order to retain its intergrity.Etosha will be fenced as a closed unit so as to execlude the emigration of all large terrestrial animals.(italics are the author’s).Clearly this is not feasible as fence-breaking by elephants trespassing by lions and hyaenas and entry by domestic stock continued despite extremely costly operations to electrify large sections of the fence.(The biologist inspected the entire fence of 850km by aircraft on 29 August 1984 a day taken at random.).He recorded and mapped a total of 96 complete breaks and 134 partial breaks (Berry 1984).Thus the Master Plan for Etosha remained in theory only and with Independence for Namibia scheduled for 1990,decision makers suspended its implementation.

http://www.namibian.com.na/index.php?id=28&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=9270&no_cache=1
18.05.04 Farmers blame Ministry for raiding lions
http://huntnetwork.net/modules/news/print.php?storyid=1248
20.09.07 Namibia: Oshana Farmers Complain About Etosha Lions Killing Their Cattle
http://allafrica.com/stories/200502240643.html
24.02.05 Namibia: Lions Attack Herdsmen
http://www.namibian.com.na/index.php?id=28&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=26480&no_cache=1
16.03.06 Faulty fence worsens conflict (this one has a lot of good detail)
seems to be endemic
didn't you check this ?

Tribal societies tend to put any bad event down to witchcraft, in the same way that cryptozoologists put anything they can't explain down to the extraordinary, rather than the mundane

 

[William Parcher]

Tribal societies tend to put any bad event down to witchcraft,

But in all the articles you cited, the tribal people accurately blame lions.

 

[Marduk]

But in all the articles you cited, the tribal people accurately blame lions.

yup, I was referencing the brilliant and highly credible article that you posted, or are you trying to deny that Namibian tribespeople have a huge belief in witchcraft ?

that'd be a good one, its a well known fact and I can post you about 200 links supporting it if you like, or you could go ask this guy

he's a Witch doctor, from Kavango, Namibia

I saw references to witchcraft and that can be a big red flag. Any local naturalists, wildlife managers or zoologists would certainly take keen interest in any "cryptid". I'm not expecting any follow up story.

you got your follow up, but thats ok, I'm not expecting thanks or anything.

the Namibian paper you linked to seems to be the equivalent of the Weekly world news, it has a tendency to sensationalise mundane stories in the same way that Bigfoot researchers sensationalise mundane evidence, no wait, didn't I say that already

 

[William Parcher]

yup, I was referencing the brilliant and highly credible article that you posted, or are you trying to deny that Namibian tribespeople have a huge belief in witchcraft ?

No, not denying it at all. It's just really difficult for me to converse with you.

Tribal societies tend to put any bad event down to witchcraft,

They are blaming lions and bad fences from 2004 right up until my article. No mention of witchcraft or giant unknown creatures until December 2009.

you got your follow up, but thats ok, I'm not expecting thanks or anything.

Thank you for finding those stories.

the Namibian paper you linked to seems to be the equivalent of the Weekly world news, it has a tendency to sensationalise mundane stories

I believe it. But according to what you say about the tribes blaming witchcraft for bad things... my article sounds like what would come straight out of their mouths.

 

[Marduk]

No, not denying it at all. It's just really difficult for me to converse with you.

Thats because you have taken it upon yourself to make that factual, I have no difficulty conversing with you

They are blaming lions and bad fences from 2004 right up until my article. No mention of witchcraft or giant unknown creatures until December 2009.

Its been going on since before 1984, the tribal people will still say witchcraft even if its a known animal, the animals intent in this case would generally be believed to be the result of a sorceror or bad witch doctor intent on deliberate harm, in the same way that the rest of the world during the middle ages would put crop failure down to witches being abroad, theyre just a little scientifically impaired is all.

I believe it. But according to what you say about the tribes blaming witchcraft for bad things... my article sounds like what would come straight out of their mouths.

Yes, but reporting the mythological beliefs of uneducated tribesmen in credible international news is not really valid, or newsworthy. Its more the kind of thing that interests anthropologists. These people believe that being spat on by a witchdoctor can make them immune to bullets. Its about belief, not science. The paper you originally linked to is not a good source imo for factual information.

as for the original claim for dog like footprints

one of these is a Hyena footprint and one is a dog footprint, you'll need to remember that the type of dogs they get in Namibia are the wild variety and are much smaller than Hyenas, along with their footprints. Its not just been lions that have been escaping, but Hyenas and Elephants too, Elephants don't eat cattle though (at least not while anyones watching)

 

[Bitter Monk]

I'm wondering if this "Nature Conservancy" would choose to no identify the tracks as a known species in favor of not pissing off the locals, or as Parcher mentioned to avoid setting themselves up for potential libel.

Tribal Leader - "These are the tracks of the magic beasts."

Nature Guy - "Idiot those are lion prints... *poof* <--turns into frog.